Roy Halladay's Icon A5 down off of Tampa Coast

Ryanb said:
I would be interested to hear what was said on those mayday calls. If anything.
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Of course google his name and mayday and 20 links that are only a few min old where they state there were no mayday calls
 
How tragic.

On Neil Cavuto’s 4P show today news had just hit. He concluded by saying “Sounds like a Thurman Munson kind of thing” or words to that effect*.

Way too early to speculate on that, but the nature of the distress calls should tell us a lot.

*I had to remind Karen who that was and the aviation connection.
 
Ryanb said:
Too soon to blame the airplane.
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For sure....I agree...just an initial thought that pops up in your head when you see these accidents pop up.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I have never and will never put a celeb into the same category as friends and family unless he/she actually was. But then I guess I am different than a lot of folks. I don't engage in hero worship or fandom. Never really have.
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So then it is better that it is someone unknown to you rather than a friend or family member.
Understood.
 
Wonder what kind of transition training he got? I suppose it doesn't matter if one decides they want to fly low across the water? Very sad :(
 
pilotrick said:
I don't see how this company can survive. A new icon now costs 400,000 and 2 fatal crashes out of 20 something planes.
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That's pretty much how Remos started out with GX in the U.S. market. (I know it's different because they were selling airplanes in Europe or a while, and Icon didn't. But heh.)

Fans of SeaRey used to carp about the flip-up canopy that precludes an escape if you flip the plane over in the shallow water. I seem to recall Helen did at SPT, on the account of the plane being amphibious. The stock reply was that it's no different from RV and you've got to carry a canopy-buster tool [1]. Unlike an RV, however, busting your canopy and making a hole big enough and quickly enough, while under water, may be a bit challenging.

[1] At the time I decided to be the forum clown and replied her with a link to a video of SeaMax landing on water with gear down.
 
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Cirrus got through their MLB superman death pretty well and keeps on selling... Chances are Icon will do the same.

Heck, I think even Piper is selling aircraft after the JFK Jr accident.
 
EppyGA said:
Wonder what kind of transition training he got? I suppose it doesn't matter if one decides they want to fly low across the water? Very sad :(
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I wonder how much seaplane time he had, it's a different ball of wax that shouldn't be sold as a weekend course type thing.
 
Ravioli said:
Cirrus got through their MLB superman death pretty well and keeps on selling... Chances are Icon will do the same.

Heck, I think even Piper is selling aircraft after the JFK Jr accident.
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Not the same thing really
 
SkyDog58 said:
I have never and will never put a celeb into the same category as friends and family unless he/she actually was. But then I guess I am different than a lot of folks. I don't engage in hero worship or fandom. Never really have.
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Neither do I but give it a freakin' rest please....
 
Ravioli said:
Cirrus got through their MLB superman death pretty well and keeps on selling... Chances are Icon will do the same.

Heck, I think even Piper is selling aircraft after the JFK Jr accident.
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The key differences being that both companies were already a) well-established, and b) profitable at the times of both respective high-profile fatals.
 
Ravioli said:
Cirrus got through their MLB superman death pretty well and keeps on selling... Chances are Icon will do the same.

Heck, I think even Piper is selling aircraft after the JFK Jr accident.
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Cirrus and Piper had a much better track record than Icon. And...
Icon has come under increasing criticism for glorifying aggressive low-level maneuvers in promotional videos...
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Cirrus and Piper aren't marketing their planes as essentially flying jet skis.
 
flightwriter said:
The key differences being that both companies were already a) well-established, and b) profitable at the times of both respective high-profile fatals.
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The key similarity may be pilot proficiency.
 
flightwriter said:
True enough, but I don't see how that similarity might "help" the company's situation. Icon keeps tight rein over its pilot training program.
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We see wrecked Fords, Chevy's, etc on the side of the road all the time. Car or driver? They're still selling like hotcakes.

It's terrible that a pilot died. But it's not likely to take the company down. [They've done enough on their own, like that crazy purchase agreement]
 
This is sad, I just posted a few weeks ago how happy he was to get into an ICON A5. People have to realize Aircraft is VERY unforgiving. With a car you can get away with doing dumb stuff (People do all the time) but with an airplane all it takes it just one mistake. (I'm not implying, until the facts come out)

RIP to one of the better Pitchers of all time, (HOF..most likely) and fellow Florida resident he has done wonders for the community!
 
What an unfortunate tragedy. I was in the market for a Cessna 182 early this year and as it turns out one of the planes that I looked at more closely was being sold by Roy. I can only presume he was selling it in anticipation of becoming a new owner of the ICON. What a shame that he had only limited time enjoying it. I know that it will take time for investigators to sort out the cause and circumstances of the accident, but on a slightly different note, does anyone know whether the Icon is certified for IFR? My reason for asking is that in one of Roys' posts on his twitter feed (October 13), he has posted a video "What do clouds feel like" where he is clearly flying VFR on top of a fairly dense cloud layer. Granted the video does not show a full panoramic 360 view and perhaps there was VFR conditions toward another direction, but it did make me wonder what type of equipment was available on this plane.
 
Ravioli said:
We see wrecked Fords, Chevy's, etc on the side of the road all the time. Car or driver? They're still selling like hotcakes.

It's terrible that a pilot died. But it's not likely to take the company down. [They've done enough on their own, like that crazy purchase agreement]
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Ford and Chevy don't teach their customers how to drive Mustangs and Camaros, but Icon teaches its customers how to fly its planes... at the same time Icon's marketing pitches the plane to non-pilots and continues to tout the "adventure" of flying low and "fast" (such as that is in the A5) across sweeping vistas.

I see no outcome from today that doesn't spell the likely end for Icon. It would be different if Icon was an established manufacturer with a well-oiled production line and reliable cash flow... but it's not. There will be lawsuits, and any one of those could end it.
 
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VictorBravo said:
What an unfortunate tragedy. I was in the market for a Cessna 182 early this year and as it turns out one of the planes that I looked at more closely was being sold by Roy. I can only presume he was selling it in anticipation of becoming a new owner of the ICON. What a shame that he had only limited time enjoying it. I know that it will take time for investigators to sort out the cause and circumstances of the accident, but on a slightly different note, does anyone know whether the Icon is certified for IFR? My reason for asking is that in one of Roys' posts on his twitter feed (October 13), he has posted a video "What do clouds feel like" where he is clearly flying VFR on top of a fairly dense cloud layer. Granted the video does not show a full panoramic 360 view and perhaps there was VFR conditions toward another direction, but it did make me wonder what type of equipment was available on this plane.
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This isn't an answer to your question, but often in Florida there is complete cover over the ground, but nothing over the water. You just fly to the coast and duck under.
 
VictorBravo said:
What an unfortunate tragedy. I was in the market for a Cessna 182 early this year and as it turns out one of the planes that I looked at more closely was being sold by Roy. I can only presume he was selling it in anticipation of becoming a new owner of the ICON. What a shame that he had only limited time enjoying it. I know that it will take time for investigators to sort out the cause and circumstances of the accident, but on a slightly different note, does anyone know whether the Icon is certified for IFR? My reason for asking is that in one of Roys' posts on his twitter feed (October 13), he has posted a video "What do clouds feel like" where he is clearly flying VFR on top of a fairly dense cloud layer. Granted the video does not show a full panoramic 360 view and perhaps there was VFR conditions toward another direction, but it did make me wonder what type of equipment was available on this plane.
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VFR only. It was never intended to be IFR.
 
flightwriter said:
Ford and Chevy don't teach their customers how to drive Mustangs and Camaros, but Icon teaches its customers how to fly its planes... at the same time Icon's marketing pitches the plane to non-pilots and continues to tout the "adventure" of flying low and "fast" (such as that is in the A5) across sweeping vistas.

I see no outcome from today that doesn't spell the likely end for Icon. It would be different if Icon was an established manufacturer with a well-oiled production line and reliable cash flow... but it's not. There will be lawsuits, and any one of those could end it.
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https://www.iconaircraft.com/flight-center/guidelines/low-altitude

Salty said:
This isn't an answer to your question, but often in Florida there is complete cover over the ground, but nothing over the water. You just fly to the coast and duck under.
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Funny you mentioned that. This morning I was just amazed how foggy it was yesterday and today while going over the skyway bridge.
 
I am truly saddened by this tragedy. My heart goes out to Brandy, Braden, and Ryan, his wife and two sons. As a partial Phillies season ticket holder for the past 10 years, I've had the pleasure of watching Doc pitch many games during his career here. He was truly a humble guy who loved the game, his teammates, and more importantly his family. He gave back to the communities where he lived in many ways, and I believe he recently flew some PnP missions in FL..

I'm not going to speculate on the cause. Roy was methodical with his preparation and approach to pitching on game day, so much so that he was admired around the league, and I can only hope he was just as methodical to his piloting.

Ironically, Roy and Cory Lidle were friends and teammates at one point in Toronto, and had flown together in the past. They both had a passion for flying.

Tail winds, Roy, you will be missed.
 
I think @flightwriter is off the mark here. It's an LSA amphibious. No jet fighter moves at 120mph and approved for water operations.

Don't put any bets on this man's tragic outcome downing the company. Just as no RV tragedy has ended that company.

We know the risks.
 
Looks like per usual, the frau wasn't on board with the whole thing, and now that sentiment is probably reinforced towards the surviving children. So maybe there's hope for the survivors not to exhibit paralysis towards the activity going forward.

It also interesting to note the baseball franchise may have forbidden him from flying recreationally, if the deceased's quotes are in fact literal and not merely referring to lack of time. If true, that's an interesting footnote, considering motorcycle riding in open roads doesn't seem to be forbidden by these franchises.

On an unrelated note, that's a sick Freedom Fighter on his tweeter page. Definitively not something a corp pilot (the father) can swing on his own. Single-seat turbojet, wonder how they even get that thing insured.

As to Icon, I'm not sure if this thing will be the nail in the coffin, but it sure wouldn't be the first time marketing creates second-tier effects that a company didn't bargain for.
 
Ravioli said:
I think @flightwriter is off the mark here. It's an LSA amphibious. No jet fighter moves at 120mph and approved for water operations.

Don't put any bets on this man's tragic outcome downing the company. Just as no RV tragedy has ended that company.

We know the risks.
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I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but there's plenty of evidence to indicate that Icon was already hanging by a thread before today. One way or another, I suspect we'll find out sooner than later.
 
Icon is raising the price of the planes by fifty percent and now this. Just my opinion but I think their done.

RIP Roy.
 
MD11Pilot said:
Icon is raising the price of the planes by fifty percent and now this. Just my opinion but I think their done.

RIP Roy.
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Not being an ahole, just curious, but what thoughts do you have that makes you think they are finished?
 
CC268 said:
For sure....I agree...just an initial thought that pops up in your head when you see these accidents pop up.
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CC268 said:
Sad...there sure are times when it seems like flying an airplane is so risky.
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Maybe you should hang up your log book and call it quits. I seem to recall you have saying this before a few times. Just an observation
 
Zeldman said:
Not being an ahole, just curious, but what thoughts do you have that makes you think they are finished?
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I saw an article by Paul Bertorelli from about a year ago. He's ran some basic numbers, starting with Icon's headcount, and his conclusion was that they needed to make and sell hundreds of airplanes each year just to break even. The conclusion was that it's only a matter of time before the investor money runs out. The Eclipse scenario is inevitable at this point. And mind, this was a year ago. Icon was a dead company walking for that long.

Now, the price increase could make them profitable on the old sales numbers, but it depresses sales even more, so on the balance it's probably not enough to save them.
 
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zaitcev said:
I saw an article by Paul Bertorelli from about a year ago. He's ran some basic numbers, starting with Icon's headcount, and his conclusion was that they needed to make and sell hundreds of airplanes each year just to break even. The conclusion was that it's only a matter of time before the investor money runs out. The Eclipse scenario is inevitable at this point. And mind, this was a year ago. Icon was a dead company walking for that long.

Now, the price increase could make them profitable on the old sales numbers, but it depresses sales even more, so on the balance it's probably not enough to save them.
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That would be AWSOME!!!

So they go TU and a grown up airplane company like Cirrus buys their proven airframe and tooling, combines it with their training and proper aerospace marketing and puts a cool airframe to market with a proper company behind it.
 
Ryanb said:
Too soon to blame the airplane.
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I’ll be honest, I think that too when I hear things like this. But then again, just yesterday we had a fatal car accident in our area and yet I never think I shouldn’t drive. I guess it is just how our mind works.
 
It always amazes me when GA “startups” find someone to invest/fund their venture.

How many have been successful? How many have failed? How can investors find those odds to be in their favor?
 
zaitcev said:
I saw an article by Paul Bertorelli from about a year ago. He's ran some basic numbers, starting with Icon's headcount, and his conclusion was that they needed to make and sell hundreds of airplanes each year just to break even. The conclusion was that it's only a matter of time before the investor money runs out. The Eclipse scenario is inevitable at this point. And mind, this was a year ago. Icon was a dead company walking for that long.

Now, the price increase could make them profitable on the old sales numbers, but it depresses sales even more, so on the balance it's probably not enough to save them.
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That makes sense. Investors pulling the plug has been the end of many companies.
 
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