<Rant> Please announce your intentions in English for us mortal VFR pilots</Rant>

WannFly

WannFly

Final Approach
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for all you folks shooting practice approaches... when you announce your intentions on CTAF, for the sake of Zeus.. could you make it little more understandable? like something in English?

"Alexandria traffic Cirrus 123 on 3 mile final, for 31, after touch and go will make procedure turn"

I have no freaking idea what that means. so I key up :

"Alexandria traffic, Cirrus 123, I don't understand procedure turns, say intentions, I am 5 miles out joining downwind for 31"

"Alexandria traffic, Cirrus 123 will do procedure turn" (and something about a Arc or whatever the hell that is)

F**k it. I continued to hold my position 8 miles out till she landed and taxied off the runway after doing god knows what

Rant over. carry on.
 
WannFly said:
for all you folks shooting practice approaches... when you announce your intentions on CTAF, for the sake of Zeus.. could you make it little more understandable? like something in English?

"Alexandria traffic Cirrus 123 on 3 mile final, for 31, after touch and go will make procedure turn"

I have no freaking idea what that means. so I key up :

"Alexandria traffic, Cirrus 123, I don't understand procedure turns, say intentions, I am 5 miles out joining downwind for 31"

"Alexandria traffic, Cirrus 123 will do procedure turn" (and something about a Arc or whatever the hell that is)

F**k it. I continued to hold my position 8 miles out till she landed and taxied off the runway after doing god knows what

Rant over. carry on.
Click to expand...
I do see your point, but I would attack the issue a bit differently.
I would take about 15 minutes and learn a few basic IFR terms that are used near an uncontrolled field. It's not that hard.
You can even ask the questions here.
 
Kritchlow said:
I do see your point, but I would attack the issue a bit differently.
I would take about 15 minutes and learn a few basic IFR terms that are used near an uncontrolled field. It's not that hard.
You can even ask the questions here.
Click to expand...

Agreed. after coming back I read up a little on DME Arc, departure procedure of KAXN etc... but even if I know some of the terms, I have no idea how to interpret them when in the air or try to get a mental picture of what that plane's next move is
 
Hah, you are absolutely right. Many IR pilots do this. Some out of obliviousness, some to show off, some to **** others off, I don't know. :)
I advocate to use VFR language on a VFR day and have so far convinced a few IR pilots to do the right thing.

How about? "We are over ESDEF doing a HILPT then we'll shoot VOR DME 17, go missed, sequence for RNAV 17 with a PT at CUDED, then inbound, missed and hold as published so stay out of my way, VFR people".
Pretty counterproductive.

When shooting practice approaches, I always consult the approach plate to see distances from the airport on the approach. Because if I am 2 miles from the FAF and I key the mike, my mouth needs to say distance to airport, not the FAF. Or I can cheat with the GPS where I put in DIR to the airport to have a distance on the screen while shooting VOR/LOC approaches. :)

Next time, tell the clueless lady in her Cirrus to pull the red handle. She used to be a VFR pilot once, she should know how to speak VFR. :)
 
Kritchlow said:
I would take about 15 minutes and learn a few basic IFR terms
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Like "VOR A" approach which will be different for every single airport?
Or, in this case, "Procedure turn" which can be in any one of a number of directions in any number of different locations (near as I can tell) again, varying by approach.

Knowing the terms is pretty worthless if you don't have a full set of current approach plates.
 
WannFly said:
Agreed. after coming back I read up a little on DME Arc, departure procedure of KAXN etc... but even if I know some of the terms, I have no idea how to interpret them when in the air or try to get a mental picture of what that plane's next move is
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Again I see your point. It would be more clear if you had an IFR chart.
That said, if someone is on the arc at least you know they're not on final. If they are calling procedure turn inbound they are probably turning about a 10 mile final.
As far as planning your departures, it's like anything else VFR. With those calls they are likely far enough from the airport that other VFR planes in their vicinity probably have not even checked in yet.
 
WannFly said:
for all you folks shooting practice approaches... when you announce your intentions on CTAF, for the sake of Zeus.. could you make it little more understandable? like something in English?

"Alexandria traffic Cirrus 123 on 3 mile final, for 31, after touch and go will make procedure turn"

I have no freaking idea what that means. so I key up :

"Alexandria traffic, Cirrus 123, I don't understand procedure turns, say intentions, I am 5 miles out joining downwind for 31"

"Alexandria traffic, Cirrus 123 will do procedure turn" (and something about a Arc or whatever the hell that is)

F**k it. I continued to hold my position 8 miles out till she landed and taxied off the runway after doing god knows what

Rant over. carry on.
Click to expand...
See and avoid. Barge on into the pattern with eyes peeled. Don't give those bloody IFR wogs an inch I say! I'm sorta serious. I've seen folks stay away from an airport because there is a plane in the pattern. Okay, I get it. That is a conservative decision. It is also unnecessary most of the time. Big exception is lifeflight or similar call sign: it's your airport. Don't care if it's just a traveling doc and/or team. They get the right-of-way.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Like "VOR A" approach which will be different for every single airport?
Or, in this case, "Procedure turn" which can be in any one of a number of directions in any number of different locations (near as I can tell) again, varying by approach.

Knowing the terms is pretty worthless if you don't have a full set of current approach plates.
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As I said while you were typing, those terms are likely used while further from the airfield.
As one approaches the calls will conform more to standard. An alpha approach may have typical pattern calls. A straight in may have a 2 mike final call. Not always but quite often.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Like "VOR A" approach which will be different for every single airport?
Or, in this case, "Procedure turn" which can be in any one of a number of directions in any number of different locations (near as I can tell) again, varying by approach.

Knowing the terms is pretty worthless if you don't have a full set of current approach plates.
Click to expand...
And understand everything on the approach plate. Not something taught to student pilots.
 
I usually just wait until I'm on the inbound final course and start announcing distance.

"BS6969 is on a six mile final for RY23"
"BS6969 is on a five mile final for RY23"
"BS6969 is on a four mile final for RY23"

yadda yadda yadda
 
Bill Jennings said:
I usually just wait until I'm on the inbound final course and start announcing distance.

"BS6969 is on a six mile final for RY23"
"BS6969 is on a five mile final for RY23"
"BS6969 is on a four mile final for RY23"

yadda yadda yadda
Click to expand...
Exactly. That's the point I was driving at.
 
Clark1961 said:
See and avoid. Barge on into the pattern with eyes peeled. Don't give those bloody IFR wogs an inch I say! I'm sorta serious. I've seen folks stay away from an airport because there is a plane in the pattern. Okay, I get it. That is a conservative decision. It is also unnecessary most of the time. Big exception is lifeflight or similar call sign: it's your airport. Don't care if it's just a traveling doc and/or team. They get the right-of-way.
Click to expand...
whats lifeflight? I have heard compassion flight and medevac (hear that often in KFAR and they almost always gets priority handling, one time they even sent a delta flight to some holding position)
 
I'm thinking I'd say: "Cirrus 123, vfr pilot here, no idea what a procedure turn is, 8 miles out, will be joining the pattern on a left 45 for 23". The likely story is she had no idea what or where it is either, just following the magenta line.
 
PaulS said:
I'm thinking I'd say: "Cirrus 123, vfr pilot here, no idea what a procedure turn is, 8 miles out, will be joining the pattern on a left 45 for 23". The likely story is she had no idea what or where it is either, just following the magenta line.
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No need to know where other traffic is, right????
 
WannFly said:
whats lifeflight? I have heard compassion flight and medevac (hear that often in KFAR and they almost always gets priority handling, one time they even sent a delta flight to some holding position)
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You're on track. Lifeflight/medevac/whatever are the medical guys. Maybe we see more traveling docs out here in the west, dunno. Definitely see our share of air ambulance type flights. There also used to be a bunch of flights for medical lab work, dunno if those are still common. @Zeldman could probably fill us in on the details.
 
Lifeflight is a carrier callsign, just happens to also be the name of the company, they do air ambulance. Other common ones out here are REACH and Coast Guard. They confer no special handling unless they use their medevac(formerly lifeguard) callsign instead.

And having been the student pilot wondering where on earth this plane was at MERET on the VOR approach, I too use direction and distance when I'm approaching an uncontrolled field for an approach.
 
Kritchlow said:
No need to know where other traffic is, right????
Click to expand...

You do know where she is, she just told you. You announce again at 4 , again a mile out that you are entering the 45 and when you are on the 45. If she doesn't speak up then you can decide whether to enter or not.
 
But if you don't understand the lingo.....
 
Kritchlow said:
But if you don't understand the lingo.....
Click to expand...

That's the issue, and it is IFR pilot's issue, we all start as VFR only pilots and people practicing these approaches need to understand that. I really think the pilot referenced in the OP had no idea what she was doing. I've heard pilots practicing approaches to our untowered airport many times now since I've gotten back into flying. Each time the pilot announced where he was, what he was doing and where he planned on ending up, such as doing a low approach to runway xx and then turning out to north west or northeast or whatever. We even had a guy announce an approach to rwy 14 from 5 miles out, we, my instructor and I were in the pattern, for the opposite rwy. He changed his approach, and told us exactly what he was doing to deconflict. Easy peasy. The op probably made the correct decision, but I think I would have continued to come in to see what she would have done, 8 miles out seems like plenty of time to reassess if necessary, maybe not.
 
Or if you
PaulS said:
That's the issue, and it is IFR pilot's issue, we all start as VFR only pilots and people practicing these approaches need to understand that. I really think the pilot referenced in the OP had no idea what she was doing. I've heard pilots practicing approaches to our untowered airport many times now since I've gotten back into flying. Each time the pilot announced where he was, what he was doing and where he planned on ending up, such as doing a low approach to runway xx and then turning out to north west or northeast or whatever. We even had a guy announce an approach to rwy 14 from 5 miles out, we, my instructor and I were in the pattern, for the opposite rwy. He changed his approach, and told us exactly what he was doing to deconflict. Easy peasy. The op probably made the correct decision, but I think I would have continued to come in to see what she would have done, 8 miles out seems like plenty of time to reassess if necessary, maybe not.
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My point is even if they made the correct call a 1/2 second before you dialed in the frequency you would have no clue, even if you were an ir pilot.
You are relying on them. Imagine if that was a first solo student in the pattern that perhaps didn't understand where you were?
No doing an arc obviously, but you tuned in after they announced a pattern entry.
 
My favorite expression to use in the pattern is, "Hello boys! I'm baaaaack!"
I heard that in a movie with pilots and aliens and thought it was cool, and it must be OK because it was in a movie, and movies are the original internet, right?

My other favorite, I sort of adopted from the other cool pilots, like myself, who fly for a living. They all have such kickAzz names for their planes, so I now announce "Yellow Space Shuttle, inbound for runway 29 with whatever the ATIS guy said."
 
Kritchlow said:
No need to know where other traffic is, right????
Click to expand...

Nope. Stay higher than pattern altitude all the way to final, then spin down to pattern altitude, recover, then slip the crap out of the plane, nose high to lose speed.
Just make sure it's your turn to land. We wouldn't want anyone to do anything unsafe.
 
Shepherd said:
Nope. Stay higher than pattern altitude all the way to final, then spin down to pattern altitude, recover, then slip the crap out of the plane, nose high to lose speed.
Just make sure it's your turn to land. We wouldn't want anyone to do anything unsafe.
Click to expand...
Right.... and the other maverick is departing in the opposite direction..!!
 
Kritchlow said:
Or if you

My point is even if they made the correct call a 1/2 second before you dialed in the frequency you would have no clue, even if you were an ir pilot.
You are relying on them. Imagine if that was a first solo student in the pattern that perhaps didn't understand where you were?
No doing an arc obviously, but you tuned in after they announced a pattern entry.
Click to expand...


You lost me here. Per the OP I'm the one 8 miles out, the VFR guy who doesn't understand procedure turns (which IS me) or even an IR rated pilot unfamiliar with the procedure she is talking about. These other situations you bring up are very real but also part of everyday VFR flying and the reason for keeping a sharp lookout in or near the pattern and making relevant announcements. I think we are agreeing here, but maybe not.

Edit: I should have said in my post you were responding to that we immediately notified the guy making the approach where we were and what we were doing after he announced.
 
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PaulS said:
You lost me here. Per the OP I'm the one 8 miles out, the VFR guy who doesn't understand procedure turns (which IS me) or even an IR rated pilot unfamiliar with the procedure she is talking about. These other situations you bring up are very real but also part of everyday VFR flying and the reason for keeping a sharp lookout in or near the pattern and making relevant announcements. I think we are agreeing here, but maybe not.
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Sorry.... I was trying to prove a point, but apparantly I failed miserably.

No fault of yours....
 
WannFly said:
for all you folks shooting practice approaches... when you announce your intentions on CTAF, for the sake of Zeus.. could you make it little more understandable? like something in English?

"Alexandria traffic Cirrus 123 on 3 mile final, for 31, after touch and go will make procedure turn"
Click to expand...

Basically, 'Alexandria traffic Cirrus 123 on 3 mile final, for 31, after touch and go'

Is basically the equivalent of 'Dinner is ready' or 'Like what you see? Come get it'

Whereas, 'will make procedure turn'

Is functionally the same as all of incoherent, irrelevant drivel you have to deal with after either one of the above for the next three hours.
 
I think next time I am just going to say.... No idea what u mean by procedure turn, I don't see you, so I am just going to enter the pattern and land. watch out for my turns
 
WannFly said:
I think next time I am just going to say.... No idea what u mean by procedure turn, I don't see you, so I am just going to enter the pattern and land. watch out for my turns
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No need.... knowing where the other traffic is, is irrelevant [sarcastic].
 
Kritchlow said:
No need.... knowing where the other traffic is, is irrelevant [sarcastic].
Click to expand...
but I don't have a Chute!! and she didn't show up on my ADSB either... does Cirrus have stealth mode?
 
WannFly said:
but I don't have a Chute!! and she didn't show up on my ADSB either... does Cirrus have stealth mode?
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Lol!!!
I'm just paraphrasing from everyone else here (other than myself).
99.9% of the folks here say "just make an announcement where you are, the others will let you know if there's an issue or get out of the way".
Although I do understand their logic, I just happen to disagree with it.
 
I'm IR but still have no idea what some guys are doing.
"n12354 is on the vor rwy18"
...... okay well I know thats anywhere from the runway to like 15 miles out so... doesn't really help me.
Guys will announce opposite traffic runways and then not let you know what they are gonna do... or even where they are just "localizer 36" or "VOR 36"

Whenever I did approaches I'd do something like N12345 on a 10 mile final descending through 4500 instrument approach rwy 18 then let them know intentions full stop, break off before the pattern, do a missed approach etc.
 
falconkidding said:
I'm IR but still have no idea what some guys are doing.
"n12354 is on the vor rwy18"
...... okay well I know thats anywhere from the runway to like 15 miles out so... doesn't really help me.
Guys will announce opposite traffic runways and then not let you know what they are gonna do... or even where they are just "localizer 36" or "VOR 36"

Whenever I did approaches I'd do something like N12345 on a 10 mile final descending through 4500 instrument approach rwy 18 then let them know intentions full stop, break off before the pattern, do a missed approach etc.
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I do agree there are issues with certain guys announcing, or lack there of.
It absolutely should be made more generic, which I think drives toward the OP's comments.

To a certain point, shame on the IR pilot, or CFII for not making it clear.

I do say the approach lingo until I'm within about 7-10 miles from the drome. Then it's all generic.
 
Kritchlow said:
Sorry.... I was trying to prove a point, but apparantly I failed miserably.

No fault of yours....
Click to expand...

I reread your posts, I think we agree here mostly, and no I'm not saying continue not knowing the position of the IFR plane, he said she reported a 3 mile final, was doing a touch and go, then was going to do a procedure turn. That's a pretty good mental picture of where she is and where she is headed up until she gets to a maneuvering altitude from her touch and go for her "procedure turn". At that point you should be able to see her as you come in, or better yet, she found a clue and gives you a better idea of where she is headed. If you get a few miles away and you can't find her and she stopped announcing, you turn away. The OP probably did the best thing, but tell me why my plan is not a close second.
 
Cooter said:
REACH is the call sign used for AMC flights. You must be around Travis or McChord.
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Sorry, was unclear, the company name is REACH(Reach Air medical Services according to the FAA) and the callsign is REACHMED.
Although I could swear I've heard them skip the MED part, but they're more inland than where I am now so I don't see them often.
 
chartbundle said:
Lifeflight is a carrier callsign, just happens to also be the name of the company, they do air ambulance. Other common ones out here are REACH and Coast Guard. They confer no special handling unless they use their medevac(formerly lifeguard) callsign instead.

And having been the student pilot wondering where on earth this plane was at MERET on the VOR approach, I too use direction and distance when I'm approaching an uncontrolled field for an approach.
Click to expand...

Some air ambulance programs have LOAs with their local ATC facility that allow the use of company callsigns / beacon codes during a MEDEVAC status. Outside of that particular facility, they must use "MEDEVAC (tail number)" in order to receive priority handling.
 
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