<Rant> Please announce your intentions in English for us mortal VFR pilots</Rant>

I agree. I always make VFR calls, not IFR calls when flying an approach. Usually calling "5 miles out, straight in for runway 16 and I will be going around at 200' AGL" etc.

Much better than saying "5 miles out on ILS 16 and will execute the standard missed". Huh? Sure, pilots that know where that is will understand you. But the VFR one, EVERYONE understands you.
 
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My favorites:
"Podunk traffic Cessna 1234 is on the GPS approach for 32".
Thanks. But that doesn't mean anything to me.

"Podunk traffic Cessna 1234 is over the high school".
Which one? There are at least 50 in the range of this frequency. At least 3 within 10 miles of the AP.

Several ATC or tower controllers who don't like repeating themselves: "<sigh> ..."
Your sigh doesn't affect my flying in the least. So stop it.
 
I am a CFII and understand the issue.
Anymore, I simply get on the horn as ask, "Piper 12345 how far are you from the airport, what altitude and what heading". I tend to do that even when I know exactly where they are, just to be ornery.
As we all know, too often in an IFR training situation, BOTH heads are in the cockpit. Shouldn't be, but too often is. I'm thinking see-and-avoid is too often not as good as it might be in this situation, so helping the VFR pilot understand where you are helps him help you avoid a mid-air.
 
I don't mind announcing over a given landmark if it is distinctive and helps situational awareness, but agree that it needs to be precise. Sometimes two local pilots may have informal separation discussions that the rest of the world doesn't understand and it may not make any difference. so I don' t dismiss landmark references out of hand.
 
MadseasoN said:
My favorites:
"Podunk traffic Cessna 1234 is on the GPS approach for 32".
Thanks. But that doesn't mean anything to me.

"Podunk traffic Cessna 1234 is over the high school".
Which one? There are at least 50 in the range of this frequency. At least 3 within 10 miles of the AP.

Several ATC or tower controllers who don't like repeating themselves: "<sigh> ..."
Your sigh doesn't affect my flying in the least. So stop it.
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On a diff leg I heard a pilot make awesome position report for every possible turn in his pattern, but failed to announce the airport, twice. I knew it was not my destination airport because of the runway numbers, but must be confusing to everyone else on that frequency.

I will admit, I have acquired a habit of ending my calls with my tail number for whatever reason , my home field is towered, then key in and correct it with the non towered airport name

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MadseasoN said:
My favorites:
"Podunk traffic Cessna 1234 is on the GPS approach for 32".
Thanks. But that doesn't mean anything to me.

"Podunk traffic Cessna 1234 is over the high school".
Which one? There are at least 50 in the range of this frequency. At least 3 within 10 miles of the AP.

Several ATC or tower controllers who don't like repeating themselves: "<sigh> ..."
Your sigh doesn't affect my flying in the least. So stop it.
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The other problem is... I am not local, I don't know where the freaking high school to the south is

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I agree. Second rant is for those who insist on giving military type position reports that don't mean anything to civilians (IFR or VFR). Oddly, this is never the actual military doing it, just a bunch of guys still pretending that WWII is still going on.
 
I am more concerned with other IFR guys shooting practice approaches than I am vfr guys. I want the other guy heading to the holding fix iunder the hood to know that I'm in the hold, outbound or inbound, or at the FAF. Then I'll say x miles out, straight in rwy xx or whatever the intention may be. I've almost been creamed more times by one pilot under the hood and the other looking at an ipad than I have by vfr guys in the pattern.
 
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jnmeade said:
I am a CFII and understand the issue.
Anymore, I simply get on the horn as ask, "Piper 12345 how far are you from the airport, what altitude and what heading". I tend to do that even when I know exactly where they are, just to be ornery.
As we all know, too often in an IFR training situation, BOTH heads are in the cockpit. Shouldn't be, but too often is. I'm thinking see-and-avoid is too often not as good as it might be in this situation, so helping the VFR pilot understand where you are helps him help you avoid a mid-air.
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No no..... you do not need to know where other traffic is. Everyone just needs to listen.
 
Instead of ranting about the quality of the position report being given, maybe we should be happy that a position report was given? This is just a friendly reminder that use of the radio is optional in the situation described by the OP.

If you can't get a position report out of the other pilot that you can understand the thing you should take away from the radio transmission is that there is someone else in the area using the airport besides you. Not that you shouldn't be looking anyway, but be extra thorough in your scan of the horizon as you look for the other airplane.
 
PaulS said:
I'm thinking I'd say: "Cirrus 123, vfr pilot here, no idea what a procedure turn is, 8 miles out, will be joining the pattern on a left 45 for 23". The likely story is she had no idea what or where it is either, just following the magenta line.
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I'm with you, Paul. I can't recall any approaches that would have a procedure turn after a touch and go.
 
somorris said:
I'm with you, Paul. I can't recall any approaches that would have a procedure turn after a touch and go.
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Easy enough to transition from one approach to another approach to the opposite runway which would include a procedure turn or a HIL. It'd save time maneuvering for the next practice approach.
 
Sure it is easy enough, Clark, but in that case more verbiage would have been nice and it would have been another approach. I was just pointing out that as Paul said, she lost some of her cool factor. We all need to work on being more specific in language everybody can understand.
 
somorris said:
I'm with you, Paul. I can't recall any approaches that would have a procedure turn after a touch and go.
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More likely they said "published missed" and the op after hearing both doesn't know that from a procedure turn.
 
somorris said:
Sure it is easy enough, Clark, but in that case more verbiage would have been nice and it would have been another approach. I was just pointing out that as Paul said, she lost some of her cool factor. We all need to work on being more specific in language everybody can understand.
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Cool factor lost. What's cool factor? Tell ya what, I'll put you under the hood then fail all your instruments except the tach and the clock and we'll see where your "cool factor" is. Deal?

None of us were perfect during instrument training. Well, maybe Henning was. Maybe the CFII in this case shoulda chimed in. I agree that it is best to give the VFR translation on position reports just as it is important to let other IFR studs know where ya are on the approach that they may also be flying. Its a balance thing and I think the CFIIs should be picking up the slack. They aren't doing much but being ballast anyway by that point in the training...
 
mondtster said:
Instead of ranting about the quality of the position report being given, maybe we should be happy that a position report was given? This is just a friendly reminder that use of the radio is optional in the situation described by the OP.

If you can't get a position report out of the other pilot that you can understand the thing you should take away from the radio transmission is that there is someone else in the area using the airport besides you. Not that you shouldn't be looking anyway, but be extra thorough in your scan of the horizon as you look for the other airplane.
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Good point...

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Chip Sylverne said:
More likely they said "published missed" and the op after hearing both doesn't know that from a procedure turn.
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Completely possible, I picked up few words here and there but the whole sentence didn't make any sense to me

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Clark1961 said:
Cool factor lost. What's cool factor? Tell ya what, I'll put you under the hood then fail all your instruments except the tach and the clock and we'll see where your "cool factor" is. Deal?

None of us were perfect during instrument training. Well, maybe Henning was. Maybe the CFII in this case shoulda chimed in. I agree that it is best to give the VFR translation on position reports just as it is important to let other IFR studs know where ya are on the approach that they may also be flying. Its a balance thing and I think the CFIIs should be picking up the slack. They aren't doing much but being ballast anyway by that point in the training...
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By the way, the lady in question was on right seat. May be she is CFI II, donno. I saw them gett8ng ready for departure after I landed. I doubt a student will ever volunteer to sit on the rt seat. Or may be the lady was safety pilot making radio calls.

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Chip Sylverne said:
More likely they said "published missed" and the op after hearing both doesn't know that from a procedure turn.
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"Published Miss".... ouch. That would be silly, and perhaps flat out braggy.

Just not good form.
 
And, once we get the IFR dudes (and dudettes) straightened out, we can work on the VFR guys (and guyettes) that announce things like right downwind for 21 when they are on a left downwind for 03...
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
And, once we get the IFR dudes (and dudettes) straightened out, we can work on the VFR guys (and guyettes) that announce things like right downwind for 21 when they are on a left downwind for 03...
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Exactly..... but it's taboo to ask where anyone is.... at least in POA.
 
Clark1961 said:
Cool factor lost. What's cool factor? Tell ya what, I'll put you under the hood then fail all your instruments except the tach and the clock and we'll see where your "cool factor" is. Deal?

None of us were perfect during instrument training. Well, maybe Henning was. Maybe the CFII in this case shoulda chimed in. I agree that it is best to give the VFR translation on position reports just as it is important to let other IFR studs know where ya are on the approach that they may also be flying. Its a balance thing and I think the CFIIs should be picking up the slack. They aren't doing much but being ballast anyway by that point in the training...
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I would, but I might lose my cool factor :).
 
WannFly said:
"Alexandria traffic Cirrus 123 on 3 mile final, for 31, after touch and go will make procedure turn"
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"Cirrus approaching Alexandria, Warrior XXXX initial for the overhead, 31, we'll keep an eye out fer ya."

Nauga,
in the blind
 
Bugsmasher 12345, 5 mile final, practice low approach, RWY 34... and subsequent intervals from the runway. Keeps it simple and any pilot should be able to understand. [Says who you are, where you are, and what you are going to do when you get to the runway, pretty simple]

And while there are IR guys that do not to a good job of announcing there positions/intentions (myself included I'm sure) that can be frustrating to VFR guys, there are plenty of VFR guys they say plenty of screwy stuff that irritates IR guys. It's a two way street.

My .02
 
mondtster said:
Instead of ranting about the quality of the position report being given, maybe we should be happy that a position report was given? This is just a friendly reminder that use of the radio is optional in the situation described by the OP.

If you can't get a position report out of the other pilot that you can understand the thing you should take away from the radio transmission is that there is someone else in the area using the airport besides you. Not that you shouldn't be looking anyway, but be extra thorough in your scan of the horizon as you look for the other airplane.
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I agree. I was being a little facetious about the GPS approach callout. I've taken the time to learn the IFR approaches at my home airport. And where all the schools are.

Still would help to be more accurate. We have 2 Bravo, 3-4 Delta, and a whole bunch of other airports within a 20 mile radius. There are definitely other planes in the area. I defer to the AIM.
 
Similar for the formation jockeys who announce "initial" and "break". Yeah yeah I know the overhead pattern is in the AIM. But it's very obscure, not generally taught, and 99% of the flight school guys in the beehive pattern will have no clue what they're talking about. If you're gonna bother talking on the radio, make sure there is comprehension on the other end.
 
RoscoeT said:
Similar for the formation jockeys who announce "initial" and "break". Yeah yeah I know the overhead pattern is in the AIM. But it's very obscure, not generally taught, and 99% of the flight school guys in the beehive pattern will have no clue what they're talking about. If you're gonna bother talking on the radio, make sure there is comprehension on the other end.
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What would you expect a military to say differently? That's what they are taught, and controllers use the terms also, FAA and military controllers. It's explained in the AIM so wouldn't a flight school ensure students knew what the terms were if military planes are there a lot, or based there especially. It ain't rocket science!
 
mscard88 said:
What would you expect a military to say differently? That's what they are taught, and controllers use the terms also, FAA and military controllers. It's explained in the AIM so wouldn't a flight school ensure students knew what the terms were if military planes are there a lot, or based there especially. It ain't rocket science!
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I'm not talking military field or military pilots recovering aircraft after an Uncle Sam funded exercise. I'm talking recreational formation pilots flying personal aircraft for fun at GA airports using lingo that most do not understand. How about just say X miles out for an overhead upwind Rwy XX for midfield crosswind circle to land. Most will understand that.
 
OK, I thought you were talking about military. I see your point.
 
WannFly said:
Rant over. carry on.
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Thanks for posting that. When I started my instrument training and we did practice approaches my instructor was very strict about keeping the terms VFR basic. The first time I came on with something jumbled like "departing the hold inbound VOR ALPHA to MDA then executing missed" and he was like "what the hell does all that mean?"... up until a few months ago I would have had no idea what the heck that meant either! Now we just say something easy "inbound from the west, 5 miles, will do a low approach to runway 6 at 1,100 then depart to the northeast"

I notice that at the controlled airport when we do the practice approaches the tower also announces us to other pattern traffic with basic terms, "the archer will be from the east, making a left 270 midfield. Follow him on your downwind to 27L"
 
If you think the OP's problem understanding IFR lingo is hard, try flying at an uncontrolled field that happens to be next to a school comprised of mainly Chinese students that haven't yet mastered the English language
 
I get it. I'm IFR, and if I go into an uncontrolled field for an approach, I speak as if I'm doing it VFR. It's not hard.

Let's say you've got a dude in a Skycatcher 6 pack.. If you say "Cirrus 123 over WAYPT inbound on the GPS 30" he's not going to have a clue what that means. He can ask, but why put the burden on him? So I just call it like it's a VFR approach. "Cirrus 123 10 miles to the South, on the GPS approach straight in for 30 full stop."

Safer that way. I can't control what other people inherently know or don't know. But I can control what information I give them.
 
1RTK1 said:
If you think the OP's problem understanding IFR lingo is hard, try flying at an uncontrolled field that happens to be next to a school comprised of mainly Chinese students that haven't yet mastered the English language
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ha ha. I know what you mean. they often come over from grand forks and more often than not I have no idea what they are saying, thank god for the controlled airport in KFAR. I have no idea how the controllers understand, but I like to believe they do.
 
WannFly said:
for all you folks shooting practice approaches... when you announce your intentions on CTAF, for the sake of Zeus.. could you make it little more understandable? like something in English?

"Alexandria traffic Cirrus 123 on 3 mile final, for 31, after touch and go will make procedure turn"

I have no freaking idea what that means. so I key up :

"Alexandria traffic, Cirrus 123, I don't understand procedure turns, say intentions, I am 5 miles out joining downwind for 31"

"Alexandria traffic, Cirrus 123 will do procedure turn" (and something about a Arc or whatever the hell that is)

F**k it. I continued to hold my position 8 miles out till she landed and taxied off the runway after doing god knows what

Rant over. carry on.
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Just say, "What a coincidence? So am I."
 
nauga said:
"Cirrus approaching Alexandria, Warrior XXXX initial for the overhead, 31, we'll keep an eye out fer ya."

Nauga,
in the blind
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What's the "overhead?" I don't see it on my approach plate?
 
1RTK1 said:
If you think the OP's problem understanding IFR lingo is hard, try flying at an uncontrolled field that happens to be next to a school comprised of mainly Chinese students that haven't yet mastered the English language
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Probably sounds like a bunch of silverware hitting the floor... You know... Ching, chang, Plink, Bing, Bonk...etc...

EDIT: Affectionately, of course....
 
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