Ramp Checked

RotorAndWing said:
And how many have you been involved with personally?
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All of them. ;)

I think a more relevant question would be how many inspectors have received disciplinary action in the last 5 years for being over bearing bullies.

I've been involved with the FAA all the way up to the regional director level.
 
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I got ramped checked on Friday... kinda forgot about it until now.... 2nd time this winter.... Lincoln FSDO... medical and certs.... students cert.... AROW docs... and on their way to another airplane that just pulled up.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Sorry, there is actually very little truth to this.

Most ramp checks are a function of the Inspector's work program, not investigating complaints.

And when a complaint is made they can not be investigated if the complaint is anonymous and without merit, in other words if another pilot files the complaint then there is a process and the inspector will determine the the facts of the case. The statement " the FAA believes the complaint before ANY evidence is presented" is pure conjecture without merit.
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That may be how it is suppose to work now, but that was NOT the way it use to be, and you know there are abuses and "hot-dog" inspectors who "play favorites" and abuse the system any way they can and want to.

How many inspectors have been disciplined for excessive or aggressive enforcement in the last 5 years? :dunno: 25? 100? 1,000?

The FAA was hauled on the carpet for ramp checking at EAA flyins several years ago and were ordered to stop.

Just a year ago an inspector did a ramp check here based on a complaint he recieved at the airport 5 minutes before the ramp check. There is no way he had time to do anything.

FAA inspectors rely on fear, intimidation, and threats of pulling certificates for enforcement. You know it and I know it.

The local FSDO BRAGS about their motto here... "We're not happy, until your not happy". Seriously! :yes:
 
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Harrassment complaint based on hot line complaints.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=2daf936f-493e-4925-a917-f7eb65bcba63

This pilot was harrassed to DEATH by the FAA.

http://www.flyingmag.com/news/faa-harassed-pilot-fatal-cj-crash

FAA inspected & temporarily grounded 6 plane full of kids at a charatable event.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=91d331d5-958f-4c5f-bda8-e4c920a76101

Even our own POA members?

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36283
 
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RotorAndWing said:
Ok, I'll play along.

FAA: "OK Sir, no problem, I'll be on my way. However I will be sending you a letter of investigation into the matter and you will be given a chance to answer. However if you decide not to answer I will continue my investigation without you answer and proceed which may or may not elevate into an enforcement action based upon our findings.". "And please understand that this is not a criminal case but is administrative, I would suggest you understand the difference before proceeding".
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Prove it. I double dog dare ya. My answer to your letter will be "no comment".

Innocent until proven even works for admin law. Elevate it to criminal if you like.

You like to think that there is some mutable difference in the law. Your proof better be good, cause you'll be defending it at trial.
 
RotorAndWing said:
All complaints must be investigated. Half of the time when someone called in as son as I asked for a name and address they would ask if they could just make the complaint anonymous. I would explain no, they have to give me a name, mailing address and phone number. After that they usually hang up.
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And I'm calling BS on that.

I know for a fact that anonymous complaints are taken by the FAA and investigated based on NO facts what so ever! These facts came out in the Congressional investigation as a result of MY complaint against the FAA. I received a written apology from the FAA regional director for the actions of the inspector.

How many times has that happened?
 
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docmirror said:
Innocent until proven even works for admin law. Elevate it to criminal if you like.

You like to think that there is some mutable difference in the law. Your proof better be good, cause you'll be defending it at trial.
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I'm trying to understand what you mean in the last two sentences. You don't think there are important differences in your rights and responsibilities (and the government's burden) between administrative, civil and criminal procedure?
 
ClimbnSink said:
It is ok they are allowed to harass people with administrative law.*sigh* I suspect the founders would have shot jackasses claiming administrative enforcement powers.
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When I was a young man, recently inducted into the armed forces and knew NOTHING about nothing at 17, there was an 'indecent'. I was told, by my command that it would be administratively handled, and I would be docked some pay, and would be confined to the base for a short time. Here - just sign this paper(article 15, in the Army, captains mast in navy).

So, I looked at what it said, and what I was being non-punished for, and what was said about my by others, and they offered me a chance to write a statement on my behalf. It would NOT be considered for reduced punishment.

There were a lot of things wrong with the report, and mistakes were made by the 'administrative' investigator. I decided to find a private atty and showed him the form, and we talked for about two hours. He told me to leave it with him, and he'd be in touch. He called me the next day and told me to be in the commanders office at 6PM(after duty hours) and not sign anything. I dressed, and went down there at the time and he once more asked if I would sign the form, I declined. He steamed, then dismissed me.

Never heard anything about it again. Bullies often come with authority to puff them up, and use their administrative power to exert force over the sheep.

Not a sheep, haven't been since 17.
 
alaskaflyer said:
I'm trying to understand what you mean in the last two sentences. You don't think there are important differences in your rights and responsibilities (and the government's burden) between administrative, civil and criminal procedure?
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I like the way you put this: 'You don't think....' Framed as a question. Kind of like 'when did you stop beating your wife?' Pretty good lawyerese, but some people see right through it.

There is no esq behind my name, but I've been in civil, admin, and criminal cases before, and have a modest understanding(maybe a bit more) of the process(es).

So far, I'm batting a 965 ave against the state(et al). And I think you can take to the bank by my poor attitude, that I'm no blind follower. The one I lost, I was well and truly guilty of the thing I was accused. Admitted it and paid my debt to society(i.e. don't do that again, no fine, no jail, no detention, no record, no history, no reporting).
 
docmirror said:
Prove it. I double dog dare ya. My answer to your letter will be "no comment".
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And that is your right. But it's also the right of the FAA to continue the investigation, and if there is corroborative evidence found during the investigation supporting the FAA that you indeed commit a violation the enforcement will proceed.

docmirror said:
Innocent until proven even works for admin law. Elevate it to criminal if you like.
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You are correct, but that doesn't prevent the FAA from conducting an investigation whether you cooperate or not.

docmirror said:
You like to think that there is some mutable difference in the law. Your proof better be good, cause you'll be defending it at trial.
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Yep, that's why the EIR (enforcement investigation report) is long and very detailed so if the Region Attorney does have to go before the ALJ.
 
docmirror said:
I like the way you put this: 'You don't think....' Framed as a question. Kind of like 'when did you stop beating your wife?' Pretty good lawyerese, but some people see right through it.

There is no esq behind my name, but I've been in civil, admin, and criminal cases before, and have a modest understanding(maybe a bit more) of the process(es).

So far, I'm batting a 965 ave against the state(et al). And I think you can take to the bank by my poor attitude, that I'm no blind follower. The one I lost, I was well and truly guilty of the thing I was accused. Admitted it and paid my debt to society(i.e. don't do that again, no fine, no jail, no detention, no record, no history, no reporting).
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Like how law enforcement needs probable cause to stop you involuntarily? ;)

I was just asking what you meant by mutable differences in the law. I read that as you were saying that some like to think so but you don't. If I'm wrong in how i read that feel free to explain further. Or don't.
 
Geico266 said:
And I'm calling BS on that.

I know for a fact that anonymous complaints are taken by the FAA and investigated based on NO facts what so ever! These facts came out in the Congressional investigation as a result of MY complaint against the FAA. I received a written apology from the FAA regional director for the actions of the inspector.

How many times has that happened?
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And I call BS on the majority of your postings, so what's new?

I worked there in the agency, and if I conducted an investigation on an anonymous complaint without merit my ass would have been in a lot of trouble if it came to light.

Any agency, any company, any group of people will always have the 2% that make everyone else look bad. You are trying to use the example of one of the 2% to make an entire organization look bad. So typical.
 
Specifically from the FAA rules and regs...


Paragraph 6-2372 General.
a. Policy. Air shows, fly-ins, and other gatherings of general aviation aircraft and airmen are opportunities for the FAA to present a positive image to the aviation community with whom we work and the general public. Many of the aircraft operators attending these aviation events are regular users of our air traffic and flight service facilities, but their contact with Flight Standards personnel may have been rare. Most of the people
who fly their airplanes to fly-in events and air shows are aviation enthusiasts and hobbyists.
EAA Note: EAA YE events are considered to be an aviation event that may be subject to
ramp checks because flights are being offered to the public.
1) The FAA would like this important segment of airspace users to have a very positive image of inspectors and the safety activities inspectors perform. Therefore, the FAA encourages inspectors to establish early contact with sponsors and organizers of aviation events so that informational and FAA Safety Team activities can be planned to serve attendees. EAA Note: YE events are designed to introduce young people, ages 8-17, to the wonders of aviation. Part of that experience could be a discussion by FSDO safety team personnel (FAAST team members) covering any aviation topic that may be appropriate. EAA encourages YE coordinators to include FAAST team members as a component in their plans to introduce kids to all aspects of aviation.
2) Under no circumstances should these gatherings be targeted for a blanket sweep inspection of spectator airmen and aircraft.
EAA Note: This means the FAA ASI’s are prohibited from conducting ramps
checks on aircraft whose pilots fly into an event simply to observe the event, to enjoy a pancake breakfast, etc. That is, unless the FAA ASI observes a safety issue that needs to be corrected.
3) The scope of surveillance conducted on aviation event performers and their aircraft will be determined by the Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) manager EAA Note: While this statement gives the FSDO manager ramp check flexibility, there is another section of 8900.1 that clearly states "no regional supplements to aviation event policy are permitted." This means the FSDO manager cannot exceed the guidance in this document.
EAA Note: Pilots flying YE’s fall under this paragraph, since YE participants and their families are not familiar with the pilot and aircraft rules that we as pilots and aircraft owners/operators need to comply with.
4) Inspectors assigned work functions at aviation events should strive to earn the confidence of the attending and participating airmen. This can be accomplished by displaying expert technical knowledge as an aviation safety professional.
5) The guidance in this section does not preclude inspectors from taking
appropriate action to resolve situations they observe that require immediate
corrective action.





http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=TQxX-4ORpnf8gHTX7vMUJg&bvm=bv.43828540,d.dmg
 
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RotorAndWing said:
And that is your right. But it's also the right of the FAA to continue the investigation, and if there is corroborative evidence found during the investigation supporting the FAA that you indeed commit a violation the enforcement will proceed.

You are correct, but that doesn't prevent the FAA from conducting an investigation whether you cooperate or not.

Yep, that's why the EIR (enforcement investigation report) is long and very detailed so if the Region Attorney does have to go before the ALJ.
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FAA(as a dept) doesn't have rights. People have rights. FAA(and other depts) have duties, and obligations to the people they represent(that's me).

I know I'm right. Got the T shirt.

The longer the report, the more grist for the mill. I like to refer to this as the 'OJ precedent', but his was only the most media visible carve up.
 
docmirror said:
FAA(as a dept) doesn't have rights. People have rights. FAA(and other depts) have duties, and obligations to the people they represent(that's me).
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You apparently don't understand law and regulations.

docmirror said:
I know I'm right. Got the T shirt.
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You are far from right, but feel free to rant on.
 
RotorAndWing said:
And I call BS on the majority of your postings, so what's new?

I worked there in the agency, and if I conducted an investigation on an anonymous complaint without merit my ass would have been in a lot of trouble if it came to light.

Any agency, any company, any group of people will always have the 2% that make everyone else look bad. You are trying to use the example of one of the 2% to make an entire organization look bad. So typical.
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You started the conversation by trying to tell me that I was the only one to have a problem. If that was the case then why did congress pass the Pilot's Bill Of Rights? :dunno: :rofl:

It is the FAA with the problem of unequal and unwarranted enforcement of regulations based on complaints from anonymous sources by SOME over zealous bullies.
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
So what happens when the money runs out and the government can't borrow any more?
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The welfare checks stop, and the riots starts, with America's bloodiest day to soon follow.
 
docmirror said:
FAA: "Hi, I'm Steve from the FAA, investigating a noise complaint."
me: "Hi Steve, may I see your credentials please?"
FAA: "Here ya go."
Me: "Thanks." (hands back credentials)
FAA: "So, we've had a complaint at xx:xx on Sat from airport KXXX."
Me: (blank stare)
FAA: "Was that you?"
me: "Am I under arrest, is this a criminal matter?"
FAA: "Well, right now it's an administrative inquiry, there is no criminal complaint that I'm aware of."
Me: "Nice meeting you Steve, you have a nice day. I'm headed home now. Goodbye."
FAA: "Uh - wait, I would like you gather some information on this complaint."
Me: "Buh-bye, let me know if there is a criminal complaint."
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There is a law against making noise...:dunno::dunno::dunno:...

I am in soooooooo much trouble..:yes::redface::(..


Who do I call to turn myself in.:dunno::confused:
 
N801BH said:
There is a law against making noise...:dunno::dunno::dunno:...

I am in soooooooo much trouble..:yes::redface::(..


Who do I call to turn myself in.:dunno::confused:
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EXACTLY RIGHT! But the FAA would open an investigation and spend thousands of $$$$ on BS reports and ask congress for more money to study it further! :rofl: :confused: :eek: :mad2:
 
bnt83 said:
joker.gif
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That may please you, but that will be the day the freedoms we enjoy will end.

Then martial law will be declared and we then will have a dictator, and the end of the cycle of all great republics in history.
 
bartmc said:
Federal employee's jumping to conclusions without any facts... what else is new?
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Tom-D said:
That may please you, but that will be the day the freedoms we enjoy will end.

Them martial law will be declared and we than will have a dictator, and the end of the cycle of all great republics in history.
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I was wondering how you would take that. What you stated could happen. The movie The Hunger Games comes to mind.

Not something I want to experience.
 
Tom-D said:
That may please you, but that will be the day the freedoms we enjoy will end.

Then martial law will be declared and we then will have a dictator, and the end of the cycle of all great republics in history.
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They ended from zombie apocalypse?
 
Geico266 said:
What really should leave any pilot scratching their heads is why the FAA is allowed to be used as a weapon when pilots don't like each other. :dunno:

Most ramps checks are due to complaints by other pilots, not because the inspector suspected anything wrong. FBO's, pilots, student pilots, call the FAA and tattle like little girls is 3rd grade. The problem is the FAA believes the complaint before ANY evidence is presented.
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Not a ramp check but my only dealing with the FAA was as an instructor I got a phone call saying they received a report of one my students flying around solo with his girlfriend. A quick check of my logbook showed I was in the airplane too. Inspector said it was probably a previous boyfriend and that was that.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
So what happens when the money runs out and the government can't borrow any more?
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The Government is not borrowing any more - the Fed is technically simply printing money, and then lending it to the government in the form of T-Bills. the Wall St. Journal reported last week that the Fed 'ourchased' 85 billion in T-Bills last week - that was the entire monthly needs of the federal government. There was no new borrowing to private parties.
 
alaskaflyer said:
And what about the checkpoint automatically makes it unreasonable?

(I only ask because it seems to be in the mould with ramp checks - sort of.)
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If stopping someone driving down the street looking for a crime with no evidence of wrongdoing is illegal - then how can it be legal because you put up a sign that says 'checkpoint?'
 
comanchepilot said:
The Government is not borrowing any more - the Fed is technically simply printing money, and then lending it to the government in the form of T-Bills. the Wall St. Journal reported last week that the Fed 'ourchased' 85 billion in T-Bills last week - that was the entire monthly needs of the federal government. There was no new borrowing to private parties.
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How do you erase trillions of debt? Make the currency worthless. The side affects include making savings accounts worthless also.
 
alaskaflyer said:
And what about the checkpoint automatically makes it unreasonable?

(I only ask because it seems to be in the mould with ramp checks - sort of.)
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In a free country checkpoints are not reasonable. Fortunately we don't live in one so we don't have to worry about it.
 
You've been reading too many conspiracy theories.

bnt83 said:
How do you erase trillions of debt? Make the currency worthless. The side affects include making savings accounts worthless also.
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Zhunter said:
They can pull you over, but can't search you car without a warrant
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nope.

1. Any cop worth his salt can invent a reason to stop you eventually. Go 1 inch over the line turning or not using a signal the proper number of feet before the intersection.

2. Any cop worth is sale can find a reason to arrest you. They will then search your car incident to arrest to 'catalog' and 'secure' the contents from theft.

Next . . .


What is the consequence to the cop? Case dismissed- if his goal is to simply **** you off - then he does not care if it gets dismissed. And if he finds something else . . . then its good law enforcement.
 
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