Ramp Checked

OkieFlyer said:
As I said, she didn't seem happy about it herself. I hope she's wrong. If your friends haven't said anything, that's great, but no need to speak ill of my friend. Frankly, that's quite rude of you. I was just relaying what she said. Doesn't really make a damn what she does, but she's head of her department here in OKC, and privy to a lot of info.
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Well..... Considering your "friend: works for a company that is 16.77 TRILLION in debt I would say.... There is a good chance she is a 6 figure paper pusher who wants to justify her job in her own mind.... YMMV.
 
OkieFlyer said:
As I said, she didn't seem happy about it herself. I hope she's wrong. If your friends haven't said anything, that's great, but no need to speak ill of my friend. Frankly, that's quite rude of you. I was just relaying what she said.
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No one is speaking ill of your friend, I'm conveying the truth, which is the FAA is full of mid level managers, a few good and a few pure whackos and then you have the management climbers. Some launch into self proclaimed campaigns designed for self promotion, fortunately they never get very far then it's off on yet another self promotion campaign.



OkieFlyer said:
Doesn't really make a damn what she does, but she's head of her department here in OKC, and privy to a lot of info.
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Lots of departments there in OKC, I spent my fair share of time at the MMAC. Lots of mid level departments, clerks, secretaries and other clerical types. Just ask any of them, they'll tell you they have the most important job in the FAA. :rolleyes:
 
N801BH said:
Well..... Considering your "friend: works for a company that is 16.77 TRILLION in debt I would say.... There is a good chance she is a 6 figure paper pusher who wants to justify her job in her own mind.... YMMV.
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Harsh man! She's a wonderful, hard working honest lady, and it actually has nothing to do with her department. Did you guys fail reading and comprehension? I said she didn't like it, to put it mildly. In other words, she thinks it's bulls**t that FSDOs should "crack down more" on pilots. How in the heck does that translate to "justifying her job" or "scoring points" in any way. I don't know or care what level her department is. She analyzes accident reports or something, but what does it matter anyway? She simply warned a friend that the FSDO might be "poking around in the pilot's business more", I think were her exact words. Sounds more like she's on the pilot's side than the bureuacrats to me. Damn dudes.

And by the way, Rotor&Wing, calling somebody whom you don't even know a "wannabe", IS speaking ill of her.
 
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I wouldn't be surprised to see an increased emphasis on many fronts. The Man clearly isn't happy about GA accident rates, as evidenced by the flap with the garage builders, and other segments aren't all that great either.

I don't think ramp checks will help the safety record, but will help them justify their existence.
 
RotorAndWing said:
No one is speaking ill of your friend, I'm conveying the truth, which is the FAA is full of mid level managers, a few good and a few pure whackos and then you have the management climbers. Some launch into self proclaimed campaigns designed for self promotion, fortunately they never get very far then it's off on yet another self promotion campaign.

Lots of departments there in OKC, I spent my fair share of time at the MMAC. Lots of mid level departments, clerks, secretaries and other clerical types. Just ask any of them, they'll tell you they have the most important job in the FAA. :rolleyes:
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It wasn't that long ago that the Orlando FSDO and MDIO got into a pitched fit over the definition of a phrase in their manual, at the expense of the poor guy with his plane.

If it wasn't so sad, it would've been funny.
 
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wabower said:
I don't think ramp checks will help the safety record, but will help them justify their existence.
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In actuality ramp checks are a very, very small part of the job. Most ramp inspections are done on Part 135, 121, 125, ag, external lift, etc aircraft in conjunction with base inspections. Part 91 ramp inspections are a rare event.
 
RotorAndWing said:
In actuality ramp checks are a very, very small part of the job. Most ramp inspections are done on Part 135, 121, 125, ag, external lift, etc aircraft in conjunction with base inspections. Part 91 ramp inspections are a rare event.
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OP here. Just for the record the ramp check that started this thread was most definitely part 91.
 
wabower said:
It would be interesting to know how many owners and pilots are just hanging by a thread related to their aviation activities and ready to move on if/when another shoe falls. And that doesn't include all of us old geezers who may be hanging by an even thinner one than we know.;)
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I personally know of two pilots who sold their planes and walked away from aviation in the last couple of years. One bailed because of the ever increasing costs. The other was a surprise. Lots of hours, good health, good job in order to afford to fly. Not sure of his reason but it sounded like something was nagging him.

What was really disappointing was when my airfield hosted an avionics trade show. When I looked around the room, no one was below the age of 50. It looked like a chapter out of Jurassic Park (I can say this because I'm a T-Rex too). If we don't attract more younger pilots and find a way for them to afford to fly, FAA may stand for Former Aviation Administration.

T-R
 
You know, I can't help but laugh at pilots who think a ramp check by the FAA is so wrong.

If you guys think the FAA is this horrible, evil monster, just try stepping out of the USA and give other countries aviation agencies a try.

I'm in South East Asia and have a pilot license in the country I operate. You think the FAA is bad on ramp checks? Let the local Civil Aviation Authority here ramp you. You WILL cooperate or they will confiscate your airplane and make it financially painful to get it back. Paperwork? Here you are required to carry 7 documents just for the airplane, all which must be renewed annually, including the airworthiness certificate.

Here's how you renew your airworthiness certificate. Go to the Civil Aviation Authority with your old airworthiness certificate and your logbooks. You enter a huge room and take a number. When your number is called you will be given several forms to fill out and wait to be called to the next window. When finally called to the next window (may be a few hours) you hand them the paperwork, then you are directed to go to another window to pay your fees. After paying the fee you take your receipt back to the window with your paperwork. Then you leave and in a few days you can return, take a number and wait to get your airworthiness certificate.

You also need an insurance certificate. Yep, that's right, you are REQUIRED to carry an insurance certificate. And a radio license, which means going to the NTC (National Telecommunications) office and pretty much doing the same drill as the airworthiness certificate, EVERY year.

Then there is the fun of renewing your pilot certificate, which for an ATP is every six months and Private and Commercial is once a year. You will go to the Civil Aviation Authority, take a number and go through a paperwork process, pay your fees and WAIT. Typically takes 2 to 3 days to renew. And bring your logbook as the Inspector will want to see it and put a stamp in it. Sorry, not an option, it's REQUIRED.

Then you have your flight physical. Sorry, no AME's here, you go to the Civil Aviation Authority to renew (6 months ATP, 12 months Commercial). Go to a room, take a number and wait. Go to the desk, get several forms to fill out and then go to the window to pay the fees. Then you are given a slip of paper that is a checklist and you get to go room to room for the various phases (ECG, X-Ray, Laboratory, Dental, Vision, Hearing, etc). Yes, you will have a chest X-ray and a Dental visit. This process is pretty much a day killer and then you must return the second day to retrieve your certificate.

And then there is the ELP (English Language Proficiency Test). Go to the Civil Aviation Authority, pay your fees (see the common theme here) and come back next week. When you get there for your appointment you are taken in a room and hooked up to a microphone and then asked to read back a clearance and then about 10 questions which you aren't given time to think about. After a couple of hours of this fun your tape is taken and you leave. The results of your ELP takes 2 weeks to get, and another week after that to get the "certificate" which you are required to carry with you at all times. If you get a Level "6' score you only take the test once, if you score a "5" then it's a retest every 3 years, and if you make a "4" then you retest EVERY year. Fortunately I scored a 6, but a friend who is Japanese American only scored a 4 (and he speaks perfect fluent english).

Then you must have a radio license. Again, go to the NTC, take a number and wait. Go to the window, get your forms and fill them out, then to the next window to pay your fees. Then you get to sit for an exam on radios which includes a lot of theory. If you pass then you come back in a couple of days to get your license.

So as a pilot here you carry your license, a photo ID, your medical, your ELP and your radio license.

Oh, and there are no DPE's here, all checkrides are done with the Civil Aviation Authority. And another requirement to get a pilot license is a background check by the NBI (equivalent to the FBI).

Yep, cry me a river about how bad it is in the USA. You guys don't know just how good you really have it. :rolleyes2:
 
Marauder said:
I personally know of two pilots who sold their planes and walked away from aviation in the last couple of years. One bailed because of the ever increasing costs. The other was a surprise. Lots of hours, good health, good job in order to afford to fly. Not sure of his reason but it sounded like something was nagging him.

What was really disappointing was when my airfield hosted an avionics trade show. When I looked around the room, no one was below the age of 50. It looked like a chapter out of Jurassic Park (I can say this because I'm a T-Rex too). If we don't attract more younger pilots and find a way for them to afford to fly, FAA may stand for Former Aviation Administration.

T-R
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You got a young one here. I can tell you that there are quite a few young folks learning to fly at my local airport every year. However, it seems like a lot of them fullfill their dream of learning to fly, only to give up on it soon after, or at least don't fly very often at all. In my opinion, renting gets to where it's not much fun anymore, because a) it would cost an arm and a leg to actually go somewhere for a weekend since most places will charge daily minimums,and hanging near the local airport just gets old, and b) if you aspire to owning your own plane, then $150 per hour rental fees are like wasting money that could help finance a plane.

I feel like once a new pilot gets comfortable enough with flying to want to actually go places other than buzzing around locally, he/she realizes that there aren't any options that aren't extremely costly. Inevitably, many will not lose intrest, but they realize they lack the means to satisfy their dreams and subsequently quit flying much. Look around, are there very many pilots with airplanes in the hangars at your airport that aren't fairly wealthy? Doctors, Lawers, Orthodontists, Business owners, Farmers, etc. seem to be the normal type of owner. For a young person, once the new wears off of the ol' PPL, one comes to realize that it'll probably take quite a few more years of patience and good decision making to get to put a plane in the hangar. So unless said youngster has an exceptionally great job, it'll probably take until they are 50+ be be able to afford to stay very active in aviation. I don't think you'll see many younger pilots attending your avionics shows anytime soon, unless of course, they hitched a ride with one of the old dogs :)

Please don't take this as complaining or whining. It's just my observation and my experience. It's just the way it is. Flying, or at least flying often just isn't very feasible for the average young person.

At 30 years old, I find myself getting real close to owning a plane. But it'll probably have be the cheapest old beater on the field. And I feel I'm quite a bit ahead of the average 30 year old in terms of income. With so many youngsters coming out of college with impressive and hard earned degrees, yet unable to find good employment and often with a mountain of debt, I don't see there being much of a young pilot population.
 
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RotorAndWing said:
You know, I can't help but laugh at pilots who think a ramp check by the FAA is so wrong.

If you guys think the FAA is this horrible, evil monster, just try stepping out of the USA and give other countries aviation agencies a try.


Yep, cry me a river about how bad it is in the USA. You guys don't know just how good you really have it. :rolleyes2:
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Alterations of foreign aircraft is just as bad

Brazil's ANAC charges money to "validate" foreign STCs.

EASA REQUIRES STC's for avionics installations due to avionics failures considered being catastrophic. If you want a ANY radio installed that doesn't already hold an STC, you get to pay the engineering fees to get the STC. EASA also does not recognize anything called a "minor alteration" affectively making approved data required for any alteration.

Then there are the recommended time limits on aircraft parts that are REQUIRED. That prop, magneto, etc is recommended overhaul every 72 months, it will be required.

I don't think their safety record is substantially better than the USA's even though they throw a hell of a lot of $ at maintenance.
 
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...and the foreign way is exactly what we want to make sure we never achieve.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
...and the foreign way is exactly what we want to make sure we never achieve.
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Yup. I don't care how bad it is elsewhere, this Murca. Stay the F'out of our way or go bleep the queen of england.:lol:
 
Lance F said:
OP here. Just for the record the ramp check that started this thread was most definitely part 91.
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Lance, keep in mind they might have been verifying that you were Part 91 and that you weren't a Part 134 1/2 operation.
 
I think you nailed it. Once the training is completed, the newb quickly finds that his projected (and in most cases idealized) opportunities for future use were based on wishful thinking rather than reality. I've always thought club membership is the best answer, although they aren't cheap either.

OkieFlyer said:
You got a young one here. I can tell you that there are quite a few young folks learning to fly at my local airport every year. However, it seems like a lot of them fullfill their dream of learning to fly, only to give up on it soon after, or at least don't fly very often at all. In my opinion, renting gets to where it's not much fun anymore, because a) it would cost an arm and a leg to actually go somewhere for a weekend since most places will charge daily minimums,and hanging near the local airport just gets old, and b) if you aspire to owning your own plane, then $150 per hour rental fees are like wasting money that could help finance a plane.

I feel like once a new pilot gets comfortable enough with flying to want to actually go places other than buzzing around locally, he/she realizes that there aren't any options that aren't extremely costly. Inevitably, many will not lose intrest, but they realize they lack the means to satisfy their dreams and subsequently quit flying much. Look around, are there very many pilots with airplanes in the hangars at your airport that aren't fairly wealthy? Doctors, Lawers, Orthodontists, Business owners, Farmers, etc. seem to be the normal type of owner. For a young person, once the new wears off of the ol' PPL, one comes to realize that it'll probably take quite a few more years of patience and good decision making to get to put a plane in the hangar. So unless said youngster has an exceptionally great job, it'll probably take until they are 50+ be be able to afford to stay very active in aviation. I don't think you'll see many younger pilots attending your avionics shows anytime soon, unless of course, they hitched a ride with one of the old dogs :)

Please don't take this as complaining or whining. It's just my observation and my experience. It's just the way it is. Flying, or at least flying often just isn't very feasible for the average young person.

At 30 years old, I find myself getting real close to owning a plane. But it'll probably have be the cheapest old beater on the field. And I feel I'm quite a bit ahead of the average 30 year old in terms of income. With so many youngsters coming out of college with impressive and hard earned degrees, yet unable to find good employment and often with a mountain of debt, I don't see there being much of a young pilot population.
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wabower said:
I think you nailed it. Once the training is completed, the newb quickly finds that his projected (and in most cases idealized) opportunities for future use were based on wishful thinking rather than reality. I've always thought club membership is the best answer, although they aren't cheap either.
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I think OkieFlyer nailed it too. I learned when I was young, still living at home, and had few responsibilities. After my private I was able to keep it up. I belonged to a flying club which had a social aspect to it. Then I moved away, and I had to rent from FBOs. I still tried to fly at least once a month. I often wonder if I would have continued if I hadn't gotten a job where I was working in small airplanes then got the idea that I should fly them.
 
wabower said:
I think you nailed it. Once the training is completed, the newb quickly finds that his projected (and in most cases idealized) opportunities for future use were based on wishful thinking rather than reality. I've always thought club membership is the best answer, although they aren't cheap either.
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I found ways to fly cheap once I got my certificate. Clubs are good but not the best.

There are a lot of people who own nice airplanes that don't fly them much (family isnt into it, what have you) and would enjoy some company just to bore some holes in the sky. Just hang out at the airport a lot, be outgoing and willing to go somewhere right-seat. If its a nice weather day don't be hesitant to fly with a stranger.

Also you might find that once you have built a little time up, and taken a few friends for rides, you'll likely have many non-pilot friends who are willing to chip in to split costs for a flight. Double bonus points here if you get your instrument rating and can make a weekend trip with a pretty good certainty of getting there/back.
 
dell30rb said:
Also you might find that once you have built a little time up, and taken a few friends for rides, you'll likely have many non-pilot friends who are willing to chip in to split costs for a flight. Double bonus points here if you get your instrument rating and can make a weekend trip with a pretty good certainty of getting there/back.
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I have never once collected a dollar from any passenger to fly anywhere. Non-pilots see short flights like getting someone to give you a quick ride to the store, no biggie. If you ask for money they'll just drive. If it's a long trip and you discuss splitting fuel cost, they start comparing it to commercial travel with a bathroom and just decide to meet you there. In fact I've found that even when flying is 100% free and done according to their schedule; most people still find a way to get out of it.

If you have friends willing to kick in, then you are truly lucky.
 
Tom-D said:
Why would you call those who wouldn't, friends?
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Non-pilots don't want to fly, don't like small airplanes, and think every time you take off it's like the russian roulette scene from the Deer Hunter. The bravest may go along, but they sure don't want to pay for it. They'd rather spend a $100 and fly Southwest, they just don't want to tell you and hurt your feelings.

Even further, I've offered several people on this very board a chance to fly my airplane, which is a pretty descent bird, FOR FREE. You know how many people have actually called me up and said, "Let me know the next time you feel like flying"..... ZERO point zero.

IMO asking people to pay for your flying is pushing a friendship in most cases.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Non-pilots don't want to fly, don't like small airplanes, and think every time you take off it's like the russian roulette scene from the Deer Hunter. The bravest may go along, but they sure don't want to pay for it. They'd rather spend a $100 and fly Southwest, they just don't want to tell you and hurt your feelings.

Even further, I've offered several people on this very board a chance to fly my airplane, which is a pretty descent bird, FOR FREE. You know how many people have actually called me up and said, "Let me know the next time you feel like flying"..... ZERO point zero.

IMO asking people to pay for your flying is pushing a friendship in most cases.
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"Let me know the next time you feel like flying"
 
wabower said:
I think you nailed it. Once the training is completed, the newb quickly finds that his projected (and in most cases idealized) opportunities for future use were based on wishful thinking rather than reality. I've always thought club membership is the best answer, although they aren't cheap either.
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Wayne, I would agree. I just wish there more clubs. Perhaps I should start one here in the Sooner state.
 
dell30rb said:
I found ways to fly cheap once I got my certificate. Clubs are good but not the best.

There are a lot of people who own nice airplanes that don't fly them much (family isnt into it, what have you) and would enjoy some company just to bore some holes in the sky. Just hang out at the airport a lot, be outgoing and willing to go somewhere right-seat. If its a nice weather day don't be hesitant to fly with a stranger.

Also you might find that once you have built a little time up, and taken a few friends for rides, you'll likely have many non-pilot friends who are willing to chip in to split costs for a flight. Double bonus points here if you get your instrument rating and can make a weekend trip with a pretty good certainty of getting there/back.
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That's pretty much what I've been doing since I got my PPL. I generally rent once or twice a month from the FBO, but spend a lot of time hanging around the field. On occasion, the flight school FBO will need some labor to wash planes or something like that, and is willing to compensate with flight hours. Once in a while, owners will ask for some company when they go flying. That has allowed me to get at least a small amount of experience in several different types of planes. So there are cheap ways to get in the air with a little patience. It is fun, but dang, I'm just chompin' at the bit to get to travel where I want, when I want. I long to be able to throw the clubs in the back and hit the links in some other state :)

Must remain patient.

There is an old fella here that loves flying his glider. He owns his own 182 just to use as a tow plane. He no longer has any intrest in powered flight, so he never flies the 182. He has said recently that he'd let me fly his plane some in exchange for being his tow pilot when he gets the itch to go up, which is a lot. I'm willing to do that, but a little nervous about towing.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Even further, I've offered several people on this very board a chance to fly my airplane, which is a pretty descent bird, FOR FREE. You know how many people have actually called me up and said, "Let me know the next time you feel like flying"..... ZERO point zero.

IMO asking people to pay for your flying is pushing a friendship in most cases.
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I don't know if that is a judgement of your friends or your piloting skills.
 
wabower said:
and over which we have little if any control. Think about the chidren.
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I have been. My kiddo is smarter than their kiddos. But then again, so is my dog.
 
I would still like to go back to my first post. To Rotor & Wing I never said my ramp check was bad. It took a little time we didn't have, but that wasn't my issue at all.

Call it sequester or a budget or just plain common sense, but every government agency has some limit on what they can spend. Should they spend it on wandering around ramps looking at pieces of paper that has no proven safety benefit that I've ever seen? Or should they staff control towers (or other such things that actually benefit the airman)?
 
Lance F said:
. Should they spend it on wandering around ramps looking at pieces of paper that has no proven safety benefit that I've ever seen? Or should they staff control towers (or other such things that actually benefit the airman)?
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Again, you are confusing Flight Standards with Air Traffic Control.

As far as claiming "looking at pieces of paper that have no proven safety benefit" please cite your reference for that claim.
 
O'jesus. Yes paperwork makes airplanez fly safer, or at leastcushions the crash.
 
RotorAndWing said:
As far as claiming "looking at pieces of paper that have no proven safety benefit" please cite your reference for that claim.
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Why do you need a reference ? doesn't common sense do it for ya?
most often, ya simply hear of the stupid from FSDO hanging the tag on a "Q" tipped prop or screwing with Bob Hover, so many examples that the FAA no longer allows the operations side of the house to declare any aircraft unairworthy until the Maintenance guys say it is.
 
Geico266 said:
This pilot was harrassed to DEATH by the FAA.

http://www.flyingmag.com/news/faa-harassed-pilot-fatal-cj-crash
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WOW, that is damning! I understand and accept that in any organization, abuses will occur, but the FAA PROMOTED the guy - not once, but twice.

Most of the FAA people I've met have been knowledgeable and polite ... on occasion even helpful, but I've had very limited interaction. That said, this kind of gross violation coupled with the promotion of the offending supervisor is what, for me, drives an primal distrust in government. They tax, they violate and then promote the offender ... there is so little you can do. There but by the grace go I.

So, Rotor&Wing, any comment on this particular story? My interest is in why the FAA would promote someone that BOTH the NTSB and OIG found harassed Brinell.
 
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RotorAndWing said:
And I call BS on the majority of your postings, so what's new?

I worked there in the agency, and if I conducted an investigation on an anonymous complaint without merit my ass would have been in a lot of trouble if it came to light.

Any agency, any company, any group of people will always have the 2% that make everyone else look bad. You are trying to use the example of one of the 2% to make an entire organization look bad. So typical.
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Yeah, I agree that any organization will have bad actors - a big government agency might consider itself lucky to only have 2%. But you can't call BS when this stories exist and are out there. So, you calling BS on Flying Magazines report? You going to justify the incident? You say, "my ass would have been in a lot of trouble", but someone doing much worse was promoted TWICE.
http://www.flyingmag.com/news/faa-harassed-pilot-fatal-cj-crash?page=0,1
 
Tom-D said:
Why do you need a reference ? doesn't common sense do it for ya?
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Ramp checks have discovered unairworthy aircraft, non certified airmen, airmen operating with out medicals with medical deficiencies, airmen conducting charter operations without a 135 certificate, etc, etc, etc.

These are fact. Are you claiming safety is not effected by the above operations? Really? :rolleyes2:


Tom-D said:
, so many examples that the FAA no longer allows the operations side of the house to declare any aircraft unairworthy until the Maintenance guys say it is.
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Not true, but I really don't feel like arguing it with you.
 
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