Question about ODPs

[PPC1052]

If there is one for your departure airport, and you are taking off in IMC, would what you file reflect the ODP, or is it assumed? For some ODPs, it might not make that big of a difference, but if you had one that had you flying a few changes of direction, and then to a VOR before turning on course (for example, the KAUN 25 ODP), would you include that VOR in the plan you file? What happens if you don't include that VOR in your plan (say, you file direct KAUN to KOAK), and you are cleared as filed. Does your clearance assume you will follow the ODP? Do you need to clarify? Can you fly the ODP even if the clearance says nothing about it?

Thanks, guys.

 

[roncachamp]

If there is one for your departure airport, and you are taking off in IMC, would what you file reflect the ODP, or is it assumed? For some ODPs, it might not make that big of a difference, but if you had one that had you flying a few changes of direction, and then to a VOR before turning on course (for example, the KAUN 25 ODP), would you include that VOR in the plan you file? What happens if you don't include that VOR in your plan (say, you file direct KAUN to KOAK), and you are cleared as filed. Does your clearance assume you will follow the ODP? Do you need to clarify? Can you fly the ODP even if the clearance says nothing about it?

While SIDs are coded and can be filed I'm not aware of any ODPs that are. Any named fixes in an ODP can obviously be filed. ODPs may be flown without ATC clearance unless an alternate departure procedure, a SID or radar vector, has been specifically assigned by ATC.

 

[PPC1052]

While SIDs are coded and can be filed I'm not aware of any ODPs that are. Any named fixes in an ODP can obviously be filed. ODPs may be flown without ATC clearance unless an alternate departure procedure, a SID or radar vector, has been specifically assigned by ATC.

Thanks, Steven!

 

[scottfromboston]

From the Instrument Procedures Manual:

"If a Part 91 pilot is not given a clearance containing an ODP, SID, or radar vectors and an ODP exists, compliance with such
a procedure is the pilot’s choice. A graphic ODP may also
be filed in an instrument flight plan by using the computer
code included in the procedure title. As a technique, the
pilot may enter “will depart (airport) (runway) via textual
ODP” in the remarks section of the flight plan."

<snip>

"If the ODP is not included in the pilot’s clearance, the pilot should inform ATC when an ODP is
used for departure from a runway so that ATC can ensure
appropriate traffic separation."

And:

"To fly a SID, you must receive approval to do so in a clearance."

 

[PPC1052]

From the Instrument Procedures Manual:

"If a Part 91 pilot is not given a clearance containing an ODP, SID, or radar vectors and an ODP exists, compliance with such
a procedure is the pilot’s choice. A graphic ODP may also
be filed in an instrument flight plan by using the computer
code included in the procedure title. As a technique, the
pilot may enter “will depart (airport) (runway) via textual
ODP” in the remarks section of the flight plan."

<snip>

"If the ODP is not included in the pilot’s clearance, the pilot should inform ATC when an ODP is
used for departure from a runway so that ATC can ensure
appropriate traffic separation."

"

Perfect. Thank you.

 

[Kritchlow]

It used to be our companies policy that when we asked for our clearance we informed them we were going to fly the ODP.

We would fly the ODP when it was night, or IMC unless we had alternate ATC instruction.

 

[scottfromboston]

It used to be our companies policy that when we asked for our clearance we informed them we were going to fly the ODP.

We would fly the ODP when it was night, or IMC unless we had alternate ATC instruction.

I've seen a couple of textual ODP's around here that require ATC notification. Perhaps all of them do, but I haven't looked.

 

[dtuuri]

ODPs may be flown without ATC clearance unless an alternate...radar vector, has been specifically assigned by ATC.

From the Instrument Procedures Manual:

"If a Part 91 pilot is not given a clearance containing... radar vectors and an ODP exists, compliance with such
a procedure is the pilot’s choice.

We would fly the ODP... unless we had alternate ATC instruction.

IMO, "radar vectors" prior to takeoff are NOT, well, radar vectors unless a diverse vectoring area has been formally established. If the pilot has planned to use an ODP for obstruction avoidance, the AIM clearly indicates ATC will not assume obstacle avoidance through vectoring until after radar identification. A heading issued prior to takeoff is for traffic purposes and shouldn't spare the pilot from obstruction responsibility.

dtuuri

 

[Kritchlow]

IMO, "radar vectors" prior to takeoff are NOT, well, radar vectors unless a diverse vectoring area has been formally established. If the pilot has planned to use an ODP for obstruction avoidance, the AIM clearly indicates ATC will not assume obstacle avoidance through vectoring until after radar identification. A heading issued prior to takeoff is for traffic purposes and shouldn't spare the pilot from obstruction responsibility.

dtuuri

And that's essentially the way it works in real life.. Obviously there are stray situations where good judgment comes into play.

 

[PPC1052]

A heading issued prior to takeoff is for traffic purposes and shouldn't spare the pilot from obstruction responsibility.

dtuuri

I usually hear, "enter controlled airspace on heading . . . ."

I have always assumed (and I think correctly) that that is an example of NOT being vectored.

But I wasn't sure what I would hear when there is an ODP, and I want to follow the ODP.

 

[AggieMike88]

Related to Scott's quote of the IPM, I've been advised adding something in the remarks box that communicates, "I'll be following the published ODP" might be worth doing so the departure controller is reminded why you're doing what you're doing.

 

[Palmpilot]

IMO, "radar vectors" prior to takeoff are NOT, well, radar vectors unless a diverse vectoring area has been formally established. If the pilot has planned to use an ODP for obstruction avoidance, the AIM clearly indicates ATC will not assume obstacle avoidance through vectoring until after radar identification. A heading issued prior to takeoff is for traffic purposes and shouldn't spare the pilot from obstruction responsibility.

Good point. So until we hear "radar contact," we can't assume that ATC is providing obstruction clearance. (Does that mean we CAN assume they are providing it after they say it?)

 

[dtuuri]

Related to Scott's quote of the IPM, I've been advised adding something in the remarks box that communicates, "I'll be following the published ODP" might be worth doing so the departure controller is reminded why you're doing what you're doing.

In theory, putting it in remarks would work, but I'd just use the radio to tell the controller who cleared me to depart.

dtuuri

 

[Palmpilot]

I usually hear, "enter controlled airspace on heading . . . ."

I have always assumed (and I think correctly) that that is an example of NOT being vectored.

But I wasn't sure what I would hear when there is an ODP, and I want to follow the ODP.

I recall one such departure where the controller asked me how I was navigating, and others where they didn't.

 

[Kritchlow]

I have actually been issued the ODO as part of a clearance (with no input from me).

One example was Hayden, CO I believe..

 

[dtuuri]

I usually hear, "enter controlled airspace on heading . . . ."

I have always assumed (and I think correctly) that that is an example of NOT being vectored.

But I wasn't sure what I would hear when there is an ODP, and I want to follow the ODP.

When departing an airport with a tower, you might well get "Fly heading xxx, cleared for takeoff." Now what? You might have been planning on the ODP because of low visibility interfering with your ability to spot a critical TV tower off the departure end of the runway. The tower might have given you a heading for traffic purposes. Better get it straight before pushing in the throttle(s).

dtuuri

 

[Kritchlow]

When departing an airport with a tower, you might well get "Fly heading xxx, cleared for takeoff." Now what? You might have been planning on the ODP because of low visibility interfering with your ability to spot a critical TV tower off the departure end of the runway. The tower might have given you a heading for traffic purposes. Better get it straight before pushing in the throttle(s).

dtuuri

Assuming no company rules, a quick glance at the ODP (or lack of) and a chart should answer that question.

 

[RussR]

While SIDs are coded and can be filed I'm not aware of any ODPs that are.

Sure they are - lots of them. Not textual ODPs, of course, but all graphic ODPs are coded. For example, the MONTROSE TWO DEPARTURE (OBSTACLE) - MTJ2.MTJ .

 

[dtuuri]

Good point. So until we hear "radar contact," we can't assume that ATC is providing obstruction clearance. (Does that mean we CAN assume they are providing it after they say it?)

I think that is pretty firmly established.

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

Assuming no company rules, a quick glance at the ODP (or lack of) and a chart should answer that question.

What is the question? You want to go one way, the tower wants you another. Is the question "Which must you do?" The answer is to do what the tower says if you actually takeoff, or don't takeoff until the tower lets you do what you need.

dtuuri

 

[Kritchlow]

What is the question? You want to go one way, the tower wants you another. Is the question "Which must you do?" The answer is to do what the tower says if you actually takeoff, or don't takeoff until the tower lets you do what you need.

dtuuri

Not sure I followed your tongue twister exactly..

Without the exact scenario in front of me, there is no definitive answer IMO.

 

[roncachamp]

I usually hear, "enter controlled airspace on heading . . . ."

I have always assumed (and I think correctly) that that is an example of NOT being vectored.

But I wasn't sure what I would hear when there is an ODP, and I want to follow the ODP.

IME many controllers have little knowledge of ODPs. FAA Order JO 7110.65 tells controllers; "If a published IFR departure procedure is not included in an ATC clearance, compliance with such a procedure is the pilot’s prerogative." But I've found many controllers are not aware of that note and also unaware of ODPs at airports they serve. Here is the ODP that applied to Manitowoc County Airport (KMTW) for many years:

DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 7, climb to 2100 before turning south. Rwy 17, climb to 2100 before turning east.

KMTW was close to the Chicago ARTCC boundary so coordination was required before releasing a departure that would enter their airspace, the ZAU controller would provide a heading and altitude. After the call to ZAU the controller working KMTW would call the airplane and almost always the clearance would include, "upon entering controlled airspace fly heading...", followed by whatever heading ZAU had provided. No questions about departure runway, compliance with the local traffic pattern, terrain, or obstruction avoidance. Controlled airspace there begins at 700' AGL, field elevation is 651' MSL. Following the departure clearance to the letter could have the pilot turning well below the altitude specified in the ODP.

When I was the controller working KMTW the clearance would be, "leaving two thousand five hundred fly heading...", followed by whatever heading ZAU had provided. The MVA in that area is 2500 MSL.

 

[dtuuri]

Not sure I followed your tongue twister exactly..

Without the exact scenario in front of me, there is no definitive answer IMO.

This discussion always brings to mind the first time I encountered the conundrum. Departing a very busy Peachtree-Dekalb on a hazy summer day, we were told to taxi into position (line up and wait) and be spooled up for an immediate takeoff. I had been expecting to follow the ODP which was to turn left (still is) and climb to 3000' before turning right. The clearance was something like, "Two Sierra Tango turn right heading 230, cleared for an immediate takeoff, traffic on short final, BREAK--Cessna xxx on downwind make a 360 to the right, traffic on short final, BREAK--Falcon at the outer marker, you're number three for the left runway, slow to minimum speed, I have traffic in the pattern for both runways and a King Air reported inbound from the south, etc., etc."

Needless to say, we released the brakes and took off without time to acknowledge, me expecting to turn left before turning right and my copilot, who's leg it was, uncognizant of the obstacles, happy to follow the instruction to turn right without question. Turns out it was a moot point, since we were through 3000' before the argument was settled. Ever since, I made sure ATC knows what I want to do before taking the runway.

dtuuri

 

[PPC1052]

Ever since, I made sure ATC knows what I want to do before taking the runway.

dtuuri

That seems to be what the Instrument Procedures Manual says: "If the ODP is not included in the pilot’s clearance, the pilot should inform ATC when an ODP is used for departure from a runway so that ATC can ensure appropriate traffic separation."

 

[Everskyward]

That seems to be what the Instrument Procedures Manual says: "If the ODP is not included in the pilot’s clearance, the pilot should inform ATC when an ODP is used for departure from a runway so that ATC can ensure appropriate traffic separation."

I think people in this thread are confusing procedures from towered airports with procedures from non-towered airports.

 

[PPC1052]

I think people in this thread are confusing procedures from towered airports with procedures from non-towered airports.

Very possibly I am.

When taking off from a non-towered airport, I suppose I can let clearance delivery know my intention to fly the ODP. But this seems to be when the remarks on the flight plan would be worthwhile.

 

[Kritchlow]

Very possibly I am.

When taking off from a non-towered airport, I suppose I can let clearance delivery know my intention to fly the ODP. But this seems to be when the remarks on the flight plan would be worthwhile.

I would rather tell clearance. When I used to file my own flight plans it was often the night before the trip. There really is no way to know for certain if it will be cavu or marginal.

 

[aterpster]

I've seen a couple of textual ODP's around here that require ATC notification. Perhaps all of them do, but I haven't looked.

If the airport has a visual climb over airport (VCOA) option and you elect that option you are required to notify ATC prior to departure that you will fly the VCOA.

 

[c310flyr]

Good point. So until we hear "radar contact," we can't assume that ATC is providing obstruction clearance. (Does that mean we CAN assume they are providing it after they say it?)

I think that is pretty firmly established.

dtuuri

I'm not sure why you say that.

You can be in radar contact and you are still responsible for obstruction clearance.
Atc has accepted terrain clearance for you only after you have been told radar contact and they have given you a vector.

Pretty important point

 

[Dalyup]

I thought that since an odp is an established procedure for the specific airport, you were required to fly that procedure upon takeoff, while on an instrument flight plan, unless atc gives other instructions. It's always our responsibility as pic, to make sure of obstacle clearance regardless of instructions. You have to query atc, as others have said. I would find it disturbing to hear that a controller would not know there's an odp for his/her airport.

Btw Been lurking here for a while now, and really enjoy the posts here on POA.

Rusty Gray

 

[Shawn]

I fly outta an uncontrolled airport with an ODP. I never file, request nor mention the ODP but I am always issued the ODP as part of my clearance.

 

[tsts4]

I thought that since an odp is an established procedure for the specific airport, you were required to fly that procedure upon takeoff, while on an instrument flight plan, unless atc gives other instructions. It's always our responsibility as pic, to make sure of obstacle clearance regardless of instructions. You have to query atc, as others have said. I would find it disturbing to hear that a controller would not know there's an odp for his/her airport.

Btw Been lurking here for a while now, and really enjoy the posts here on POA.

Rusty Gray

You are required to fly a SID, if issued. Flying an ODP is recommended, if not issued a SID or RV, but not mandatory. Conversely, an ATC clearance is not required to fly an ODP.

 

[dtuuri]

I'm not sure why you say that.

You can be in radar contact and you are still responsible for obstruction clearance.
Atc has accepted terrain clearance for you only after you have been told radar contact and they have given you a vector.

Pretty important point

Yes it's an important point, alright, and apparently it got lost in the give and take. Vectors AFTER radar contact indicate the controller is assuming obstacle responsibility. Glad you mentioned it again.

dtuuri

 

[aterpster]

Vectors AFTER radar contact indicate the controller is assuming obstacle responsibility. Glad you mentioned it again.

dtuuri

Unless it is one of the relatively new DVAs I am too jaded to assume the controller is really responsible for obstacle clearance below the MVA.

 

[aterpster]

I fly outta an uncontrolled airport with an ODP. I never file, request nor mention the ODP but I am always issued the ODP as part of my clearance.

That is an unusual situation. They only do that when they need to assure separation.

An example I am familiar with is KEMT in the Los Angeles Basin. The ODP doesn't even have a specific final altitude on it. The application in practice is to mimic the VOR or GPS A missed approach.

 

[roncachamp]

Sure they are - lots of them. Not textual ODPs, of course, but all graphic ODPs are coded. For example, the MONTROSE TWO DEPARTURE (OBSTACLE) - MTJ2.MTJ .

I didn't say there weren't any, I said I wasn't aware of any. I was looking at it from the output end of the process, that which reaches ATC. There are things that can be filed that will be rejected by the Flight Data Processing computer.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That is an unusual situation. They only do that when they need to assure separation.

It depends. The HICKORY DEPARTURE (OBSTACLE) out of KHKY in North Carolina is regularly assigned. Might be because it is a graphical ODP so it's treated like a SID.

I never quite understood if there are any real differences in an ODP published in the "front matter" and ones that are graphical, although HICKORY clearly integrates the departure into the ATC syste even if not designated a SID. I'll be especially interested in whatever light you can shine on that.

 

[dtuuri]

Unless it is one of the relatively new DVAs I am too jaded to assume the controller is really responsible for obstacle clearance below the MVA.

I share your anst. After a pilot has taken pains to plan a climbout based on ambient conditions, gross weight and climb gradient, it's a stretch to think a controller can safely chuck it all before you get higher than MVA. But they're allowed under certain circumsances I don't have at the top of my head. Perhaps you'd retell the specific example at Santa Monica (?) for the newbies here?

dtuuri

 

[bobmrg]

I'm not sure why you say that.

You can be in radar contact and you are still responsible for obstruction clearance.
Atc has accepted terrain clearance for you only after you have been told radar contact and they have given you a vector.

Pretty important point

This is the key.

Bob Gardner

 

[TheGolfPilot]

Out of KHAF, the clearance always starts with OSI. Sometimes the guy asks if you plan of flying the ODP, sometimes they don't. I personally like taking off of the closer runway and make a turn on course so I tell them no, pilot nav from 30 and that never poses a problem. IF they gave the the ODP in the clearance, I would just suck it up and taxi across the field.
I don't mind being responsible for terrain clearance there.
Another, probably sketchier airport I fly out of fairly regularly is 1O2. I typically do a right climbing turn direct STS. If you look at the terrain surrounding that airport, flying in IMC with your own terrain clearance is a big obligation.

On another note, I always try to double check terrain with vectoring altitudes. You don't know who you are talking with and it is only their job and it is my life.