Question about ODPs

Years ago I departed HAF in the fog and was cleared direct Hadley then .... I had intended to fly the ODP, but just turned out over the ocean at a thousand feet or so and was given vectors from there. Still seems like there is a lot of room for confusion with this system.
 
No confusion at all in the HAF case. The ODP kept you clear of terrain until reaching the MVA. The controller then issued a vector and assumed responsibility for your terrain separation. As a result, the ODP was no longer needed. That doesn't mean that it didn't serve its purpose prior to the MVA.
 
aterpster said:
Unless it is one of the relatively new DVAs I am too jaded to assume the controller is really responsible for obstacle clearance below the MVA.
Click to expand...

Diverse vector areas have been around for a very long time. What's new is "publishing" them. Here are the controllers rules for vectoring below the MVA.

Except in en route automated environments in areas
where more than 3 miles separation minima is
required, you may vector a departing IFR aircraft, or
one executing a missed approach, within 40 miles of
the radar antenna and before it reaches the minimum
altitude for IFR operations if separation from
prominent obstacles shown on the radar scope is
applied in accordance with the following:
a. If the flight path is 3 miles or more from the
obstacle and the aircraft is climbing to an altitude at
least 1,000 feet above the obstacle, vector the aircraft
to maintain at least 3 miles separation from the
obstacle until the aircraft reports leaving an altitude
above the obstacle.
b. If the flight path is less than 3 miles from the
obstacle and the aircraft is climbing to an altitude at
least 1,000 feet above the obstacle, vector the aircraft
to increase lateral separation from the obstacle until
the 3 mile minimum is achieved or until the aircraft
reports leaving an altitude above the obstacle.
REFERENCE−
P/CG Term − Obstacle.
P/CG Term − Obstruction.
P/CG Term − Prominent Obstacle.
c. At those locations where diverse vector areas
(DVA) have been established, terminal radar
facilities may vector aircraft below the MVA/MIA
within those areas and along those routes described in
facility directives.
 
luvflyin said:
Diverse vector areas have been around for a very long time. What's new is "publishing" them. Here are the controllers rules for vectoring below the MVA.

Except in en route automated environments in areas
where more than 3 miles separation minima is
required, you may vector a departing IFR aircraft, or
one executing a missed approach, within 40 miles of
the radar antenna and before it reaches the minimum
altitude for IFR operations if separation from
prominent obstacles shown on the radar scope is
applied in accordance with the following:
a. If the flight path is 3 miles or more from the
obstacle and the aircraft is climbing to an altitude at
least 1,000 feet above the obstacle, vector the aircraft
to maintain at least 3 miles separation from the
obstacle until the aircraft reports leaving an altitude
above the obstacle.
b. If the flight path is less than 3 miles from the
obstacle and the aircraft is climbing to an altitude at
least 1,000 feet above the obstacle, vector the aircraft
to increase lateral separation from the obstacle until
the 3 mile minimum is achieved or until the aircraft
reports leaving an altitude above the obstacle.
REFERENCE−
P/CG Term − Obstacle.
P/CG Term − Obstruction.
P/CG Term − Prominent Obstacle.
c. At those locations where diverse vector areas
(DVA) have been established, terminal radar
facilities may vector aircraft below the MVA/MIA
within those areas and along those routes described in
facility directives.
Click to expand...

Until the current program was implemented starting a couple of years ago the only places that had DVAs were some military fields

The prevailing application was (and still is until the DVA program sufficiently propagates) is a) and b), which often are neither 40-1 clear nor is a climb gradient expressed.
 
aterpster said:
Until the current program was implemented starting a couple of years ago the only places that had DVAs were some military fields

The prevailing application was (and still is until the DVA program sufficiently propagates) is a) and b), which often are neither 40-1 clear nor is a climb gradient expressed.
Click to expand...

I didn't know their use was that limited. Do you happen to know when it was that SIDS became subject to the 40:1 departure slope requirement. My recollection is that they had been around for quite awhile before they started evaluating them for obstacle clearance?
 
luvflyin said:
I didn't know their use was that limited. Do you happen to know when it was that SIDS became subject to the 40:1 departure slope requirement. My recollection is that they had been around for quite awhile before they started evaluating them for obstacle clearance?
Click to expand...

There wasn't any FAA DVA criteria until that order was written just a few years ago. At first, air traffic management wanted them only where the DVA was 40:1-clear, like the military. The 40:1 requirement meant the FAA's DVA program wasn't going anywhere. So, in the past two years, or so, they agreed to climb gradient DVAs. Now, the program is going to work.

I can't recall much about the early SID program. I was on an ALPA safety committee at the time, which insisted that airway criteria be applied to SIDs once the initial climb requirement was satisfied. I believe where SIDs are not 40:1 clear they have always had an obstacle climb gradient. These days, many SIDs that have climb gradients are for ATC requirements, although there may well be an underlying obstacle clearance climb gradient requirement, at least where there is significant terrain in the area.
 
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