Putting flaps in during a turn

LOL. One stupid discussion deserves another I guess. First this no flaps while turning nonsense, then what makes an airplane turn. How come nobody has mentioned lift vector yet? Y'all should all turn in your wings. I don't know how you all have defeated Darwin up to this point. :yikes: :D
 
Flaps are for landing, not for speed control in the pattern.

If you are going too fast, reduce power and pull the nose up. You will slow down. Physics guarantees it.

Extending flaps, to add drag to slow down, is a crutch for those who do not understand the four fundamentals of flight.

Adding flaps in a turn can be a problem for certain planes, such as the Piper Navajo/Cheyenne or Beech King Air. They use mechanical transmissions with gearboxes and drive cables that can fail in a split flap condition.
 
philiplane said:
Flaps are for landing, not for speed control in the pattern.

If you are going too fast, reduce power and pull the nose up. You will slow down. Physics guarantees it.

Extending flaps, to add drag to slow down, is a crutch for those who do not understand the four fundamentals of flight.

Adding flaps in a turn can be a problem for certain planes, such as the Piper Navajo/Cheyenne or Beech King Air. They use mechanical transmissions with gearboxes and drive cables that can fail in a split flap condition.
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You obviously never watched Top Gun.
"I'll hit the brakes, he'll fly right by."
 
Henning said:
Sky Goddess...
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My mistake. But it's hard to tell in CO, so I get a mulligan. :rofl:

CO and TX don't get along.

They used to flip me the bird when I'd be driving my big Cadillac across their State skiing, and doing the tourista thang. Supporting their minuscule economy.
 
philiplane said:
Flaps are for landing, not for speed control in the pattern.

If you are going too fast, reduce power and pull the nose up. You will slow down. Physics guarantees it.

Extending flaps, to add drag to slow down, is a crutch for those who do not understand the four fundamentals of flight.
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What a BS proclamation. Flaps add drag and lift. Part of being a pilot is using all the control surfaces of an airplane to make it do what you want. Some pilots even add flaps just before lifting off. :yikes: That's not for landing. Is this phase 3 of stupid discussions here?
 
txflyer said:
Not so, oh oracle of the sky. If you pull harder, with no increase in aileron roll, you go up and turn is decreased....and your airspeed decays until you stall.
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That simply is not how we manage stable turns if we want to fly safely.
I'll give you guys a mulligan, because when you're not up flying, you're like a bunch of PMS *******. :rofl:
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I was up flying three times today, and if the guy I was training tried your ideas on the FAA on his practical test tomorrow, he'd bust. So please stop contradicting reality.
 
txflyer said:
Turning and burning!


ixsN9ylO1x6tv.gif



No compression in a bank? Puhleeeease. :idea:
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I only have 2000 hours in tactical jet aircraft, but even with that limited experience, I know your statements are absurd in that context.
 
Ron Levy said:
That simply is not how we manage stable turns if we want to fly safely.
I was up flying three times today, and if the guy I was training tried your ideas on the FAA on his practical test tomorrow, he'd bust. So please stop contradicting reality.
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Ron Levy said:
I only have 2000 hours in tactical jet aircraft, but even with that limited experience, I know your statements are absurd in that context.
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That's funny, because I passed my FAA check ride with flying colors at the ripe old age of 17. I was the second youngest pilot in the State that year. Another kid beat me by two weeks.

Inspector Clouseau (or whatever his name was) said I was a natural born pilot. :yes:


images
 
RoscoeT said:
What a BS proclamation. Flaps add drag and lift. Part of being a pilot is using all the control surfaces of an airplane to make it do what you want. Some pilots even add flaps just before lifting off. :yikes: That's not for landing. Is this phase 3 of stupid discussions here?
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Back to physics 101. You don't get something for nothing. If you add lift with flaps, what do you pay for in the bargain? Drag. Induced drag, in this case. You are increasing the camber of the airfoil, increasing its surface area, and increasing drag.

Adding flaps for takeoff increase lift as needed, but also lowers the forward speed of the plane, allowing an increase in altitude without a commensurate increase in forward velocity. This is how Vx is best achieved, but it has risk in that the increased drag may cause control issues in the event of a loss of power. Meaning you come down like a stone, due to the poor trade off of increased drag for relatively little extra lift.

The only time you really want to add flaps is to LOWER the stall speed on final approach. Adding flaps anywhere above stall speed requires an INCREASE in power to maintain level flight. Why would you do that? Otherwise, you are using a lot of engine power to overcome the increased drag of the extended flaps. Why not reduce power instead of adding flaps to lower your speed? As a mechanic, I prefer that pilots add flaps to slow the airplane, because as a mechanic, I get paid a lot to fix broken flap transmissions, cracked flap brackets, bent skins, etc. These are exceptionally common on Part 135 planes piloted by people who don't understand basic aerodynamics. The type of people I have to transition to higher performance planes, where I get paid once more to correct poor habits formed by training with instructors who also didn't understand what flaps are for. LANDING, not flying. That's why they are called landing flaps, not flying flaps. Of course, there are some differences in swept wing versus straight wing airplanes, but swept wing airplanes simply have a wider spread between clean and full flap stall speeds. The principles remain the same. The spread may be 25-30 knots on a 737, but on a light airplane it's more like 5-10 knots. On some it's only 5 knots. Meaning you can land without flaps, with only a 5 knot penalty. if that's so, why would you deploy any flaps in the pattern? Why not pull them all in on final? Because, in training, we teach ROTE methods so monkeys can fly planes. 1 notch on downwind, 2nd notch on base, 3rd notch on final, resulting in 5 more knots of drag each time, etc, etc, etc. Rote piloting, without understanding the forces behind the actions. Comprehension would mean reducing the power to the desired setting, and managing the sink rate with or without flaps. Like the good old days, where pilots managed to land airplanes that actually DID NOT have flaps installed! Wow, who could imagine that? It must have been magic! Managing power, lift, and drag without those fancy newfangled flap thingies.... How did anyone ever land before flaps were invented?
 
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philiplane said:
The only time you really want to add flaps is to LOWER the stall speed on final approach.
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Funny, lots of people use them to enable a steeper approach. Some pilots like to add flaps late in the takeoff roll in order to get airborne in the shortest distance possible. You might not have seen that in the "Part 135" airplanes you have so much experience with, since the ONLY reason they really want to add flaps is to "LOWER the stall speed on final approach".

philiplane said:
Adding flaps anywhere above stall speed requires an INCREASE in power to maintain level flight. Why would you do that? Otherwise, you are using a lot of engine power to overcome the increased drag of the extended flaps. Why not reduce power instead of adding flaps to lower your speed?
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I just had an unprecedented idea. You can apply flaps...........wait.......AND reduce power to slow down more quickly. :yikes:

Thanks for the Physics 101 lesson though. Three good things have come from this thread - I've learned that applying flaps in a turn is unsafe; I've learned what actually causes an airplane to turn; and I've finally learned what flaps do. I love these little lightbulb moments. ;)
 
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Yes, the whole thread has been a lightbulb moment. :eek:
 
philiplane said:
Why not reduce power instead of adding flaps to lower your speed?
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In some airplanes, you need all the drag you can get. That means low power, flaps, gear, speed brakes, etc.

Often times there are certain power settings you don't want to just be hanging out at. In those cases flaps can get you the profile you want while keeping you away from the power setting you don't want to be at.

Flaps can also get you the increased visibility you need. There are airplanes where you literally cannot see a ****ing thing at lower airspeeds without hanging some flaps.

There are some airplanes that will just plain be more stable with the flaps at a specific airspeed you may want to be flying for an approach procedure.

There are no hard and fast rules to any of this. You use the tools available to get the airplane to do what you need it to do.

Seriously guys. Get rid of these THIS MUST BE DONE LIKE THAT kind of talk. The moment you start talking like that is the moment your inexperience shines. There is always someone more experienced and that someone will always have an exception to whatever silly rule you create.
 
jesse said:
In some airplanes, you need all the drag you can get. That means low power, flaps, gear, speed brakes, etc.

Often times there are certain power settings you don't want to just be hanging out at. In those cases flaps can get you the profile you want while keeping you away from the power setting you don't want to be at.

Flaps can also get you the increased visibility you need. There are airplanes where you literally cannot see a ****ing thing at lower airspeeds without hanging some flaps.

There are some airplanes that will just plain be more stable with the flaps at a specific airspeed you may want to be flying for an approach procedure.

There are no hard and fast rules to any of this. You use the tools available to get the airplane to do what you need it to do.

Seriously guys. Get rid of these THIS MUST BE DONE LIKE THAT kind of talk. The moment you start talking like that is the moment your inexperience shines. There is always someone more experienced and that someone will always have an exception to whatever silly rule you create.
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Agree with all of the above. In my steed, anything under 220 is getting real uncomfortable without half flaps, as an example.
 
txflyer said:
Inspector Clouseau (or whatever his name was) said I was a natural born pilot. :yes:
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I just gotta know.....did he compliment your instruments? :)

Passing a checkride at a young age means nothing except that you were inexperienced when you passed. We all were.
 
Everskyward said:
Yes, the whole thread has been a lightbulb moment. :eek:
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Heh. I was thinking the same thing.

And I think someone even took it personally when I said the thread was getting stupid.

For anyone confused about my clearly typed sentence...

Note noun: "Thread."
Not pronoun: "You."

Anyway. Flaps are a control surface. They can be moved at any time like any other control surface. If they malfunction you need to recognize it and react. If you can only handle moving them at certain times, that's fine, do whatever you need to do to maintain control.

Note: "Control" surfaces. Insinuates control. You know. Pilot ****. ;)

If your knowledge of how flaps behave when mixed with other control inputs, go up to 3000 AGL and make some shallow descending spirals and extend and retract the flaps. Maintain a target airspeed throughout. Try it again the other direction. Learn. Not every pattern on the sky must be a square or rectangle, you know. ;)

You already have the best learning tool at your disposal... The airplane! Go try it yourself at a safe altitude.

(Way better than your PC on the Internet!)
 
MAKG1 said:
I just gotta know.....did he compliment your instruments? :)

Passing a checkride at a young age means nothing except that you were inexperienced when you passed. We all were.
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Back in those days, we didn't have instruments. :lol:

It meant a lot to me. My instructor, parents, and flight school owner were very proud.

So tell us again kemosabe, at what age did you receive your PPL?
 
philiplane said:
The only time you really want to add flaps is to LOWER the stall speed on final approach.
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Comments about swept wings aside, it's really obvious you haven't flown anything beyond a 172. In fact, I'll question whether your even proficient in that, as it seems you don't know the soft field takeoff procedure.

Many aircraft take off better with some flap, particularly on short or soft fields. A 172 isn't one of them (for short fields). A Cardinal will eat a whole lot of runway with no flap on takeoff; it's quite a lot better with 10 deg. A Skylane gets a really steep climb angle at Vx with 20 deg flaps, great for clearing obstructions.

And if you try a no flap approach in a Cardinal and get just a few knots slow, you'll lose sight of the runway when lined up perfectly.

These are not weird aircraft. They just aren't common trainers.
 
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txflyer said:
Back in those days, we didn't have instruments. :lol:

It meant a lot to me. My instructor, parents, and flight school owner were very proud.

So tell us again kemosabe, at what age did you receive your PPL?
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Let me get this straight...you really believe that passing the same test at a younger age means you understood it better? Let me repeat that. It's the same test if you pass it at 17 or 117. It means you know the same things. Which isn't very much; basically that you're unlikely to kill yourself.

The age thing just meant your parents had the disposible income to support it. Mine didn't; I had to earn it myself.
 
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MAKG1 said:
The age thing just meant your parents had the disposible income to support it. Mine didn't; I had to earn it myself.
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Mine didn't either. I also had to earn it myself, while living on my own, and I passed my private checkride at 17 years old. Agree with you that the age you passed is completely irrelevant.
 
I read somewhere that the most efficient flap setting for short field take off is, your flaps should match your ailerons at their most downward deflection.

In my plane, that's only 10 degrees. The POH recommends 20 to 30. Not 40.

Anyone care to comment or throw out insults on this? :wink2:
 
MAKG1 said:
Let me get this straight...you really believe that passing the same test at a younger age means you understood it better? Let me repeat that. It's the same test if you pass it at 17 or 117. It means you know the same things. Which isn't very much; basically that you're unlikely to kill yourself.

The age thing just meant your parents had the disposible income to support it. Mine didn't; I had to earn it myself.
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Yeah right.

They had the total sum of $1000.00 to dispose on me. That's what it cost back then.

And don't pretend you know me. I was working cattle sale barns for the money in **** up to my eyeballs when you were still crapping yellow. Petty jealousy looks bad on you. :nonod:
 
RoscoeT said:
Three good things have come from this thread - I've learned that applying flaps in a turn is unsafe; I've learned what actually causes an airplane to turn; and I've finally learned what flaps do. I love these little lightbulb moments. ;)
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My only intention in asking the question in the first place was to ascertain peoples thoughts on whether adding flaps during a turn was a safe practice. It seems like the concensous amoungst the more experienced types is, there is really no added danger associated with the practice if the plane is being flown correctly to begin with. I'm glad to have that oppinion and I respect those giving it so I'll take that into account. The bottom line is that we can each pilot a plane how we choose and, as long as everyone is safe, we are all trying to accomplish the same thing- return to earth safely.

I hate to see the personal attacks that have come from my original question- I'm sure everyone trusts that I did not intend for that to happen.:nonod:
 
RoscoeT said:
LOL. One stupid discussion deserves another I guess. First this no flaps while turning nonsense, then what makes an airplane turn. How come nobody has mentioned lift vector yet? Y'all should all turn in your wings. I don't know how you all have defeated Darwin up to this point. :yikes: :D
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Because we did, four pages ago:rolleyes2:

redtail said:
I thought the elevator was used to compensate for the loss of a portion of the vertical component of lift, that turns the airplane(the horizontal component). The ailerons initiate and (with minor corrections), maintain the bank.
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txflyer said:
I read somewhere that the most efficient flap setting for short field take off is, your flaps should match your ailerons at their most downward deflection.

In my plane, that's only 10 degrees. The POH recommends 20 to 30. Not 40.

Anyone care to comment or throw out insults on this? :wink2:
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I've read that, too. The fact that someone once wrote it somewhere doesn't make that a universal truth -- and this most definitely is not. Generally speaking, what it says in the POH has been determined by the engineers and test pilots at the factory to be the most effective configuration for that maneuver.
 
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It certainly can't be a global truth. It's NOT true for the 172 even. You have to define what you mean by "most efficient." The 172 gets 10 degrees of flaps for minimum ground roll but it hurts the actual climb (past the elusive 50' obstacle). I suspect it also varies highly with the type of flap and ailerons. I can imagine that bizarre things like MU-2's also certainly fail to meet the rule of thumb.

That being said, it is the way we set short field flaps on certain Navions (the original Navions have only FULL DOWN and FULL DOWN flaps, you don't use flaps on takeoff). The later (or modified ones) get an additional valve in the MCV and a notch in the panel so you can set the handle between full up and full down. There's no "flap indicator" other than looking out the window at them.
 
txflyer said:
So tell us again kemosabe, at what age did you receive your PPL?
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You didn't ask me, but I got mine at 18. Just one year after you did. But what does that have to do with anything in this thread?
 
jspilot said:
I hate to see the personal attacks that have come from my original question- I'm sure everyone trusts that I did not intend for that to happen.:nonod:
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You are OK. Everyone's posts stand on their own merits. I think we can tell who has it together and who doesn't.

(We may not agree on who those people are, but that is what makes the world, (internet forum?) go around.)
 
flyingron said:
It certainly can't be a global truth. It's NOT true for the 172 even. You have to define what you mean by "most efficient." The 172 gets 10 degrees of flaps for minimum ground roll but it hurts the actual climb (past the elusive 50' obstacle). I suspect it also varies highly with the type of flap and ailerons. I can imagine that bizarre things like MU-2's also certainly fail to meet the rule of thumb.

That being said, it is the way we set short field flaps on certain Navions (the original Navions have only FULL DOWN and FULL DOWN flaps, you don't use flaps on takeoff). The later (or modified ones) get an additional valve in the MCV and a notch in the panel so you can set the handle between full up and full down. There's no "flap indicator" other than looking out the window at them.
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No wonder they are so slow. :D

I knew what you meant, though.
 
txflyer said:
What makes you so sure? Are you sky God?

From what I hear, you CO boys are the one's with legal alternate realities....


:goofy:
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well this thread wasn't completely useless. I've got another name in my ignore list.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
 
philiplane said:
The only time you really want to add flaps is to LOWER the stall speed on final approach. Adding flaps anywhere above stall speed requires an INCREASE in power to maintain level flight.
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Just when it looked like this thread had become thoroughly ridiculous, along comes someone who decides to take it full retard.

I'll second MAKG1's comment that it is clear you haven't flown anything bigger than a 172.
 
philiplane said:
Flaps are for landing, not for speed control in the pattern.

If you are going too fast, reduce power and pull the nose up. You will slow down. Physics guarantees it.

Extending flaps, to add drag to slow down, is a crutch for those who do not understand the four fundamentals of flight.

Adding flaps in a turn can be a problem for certain planes, such as the Piper Navajo/Cheyenne or Beech King Air. They use mechanical transmissions with gearboxes and drive cables that can fail in a split flap condition.
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Guess when I was taught to fly multis down to the runway with drag that was wrong too huh?

There are also plenty of planes where flaps have a negligible affect on stall speed but do increase drag fairly significantly.
 
jspilot said:
I hate to see the personal attacks that have come from my original question- I'm sure everyone trusts that I did not intend for that to happen.:nonod:
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Don't ever regret asking an honest question. You're not responsible for anyone else. Hope you didn't feel any attacks were directed toward you.

And regarding your intentions in posting this topic, you gotta understand that in the internet forum world, the original post often quickly becomes irrelevant to the ensuing crap storm. :) Trains gotta wreck sometimes.
 
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Yeah no I get that I'm not responsible for what others do after I ask a question. My inten was for people to respond to the question so that's kind of an understood fact that people will offer opinions. It just seems like this has gotten a bit too personal.

I've still found a good number of the posts educational so I guess all is not lost.
 
You are ok JS, Keep posting. Some threads get a higher than usual level of Testosterone flowing, and some don't. Not exactly sure what brings it out.
 
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