Putting flaps in during a turn

Dead Stick said:
It's not arrogance, it's physics and aerodynamics. When someone comes up with flight test data then I'll sing a different tune. High time bush pilots aren't immune from OWTs, infact they often propagate them. Henning's observations are bang on. Listen and learn my friend.
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You should read the book. If you still think you're smarter and more experienced, then that is further confirmation of what I already suspect - that your brain activity matches your screen name. I'm sure the bush pilots would be very interested in Henning's results in the Ag plane he flew. The author I referenced did note that this technique had the potential to be significantly more valuable in the 180/185 than the Super Cub. I'd imagine aircraft type matters. So does the condition of the airstrip.

So where are your scientific test numbers disproving this method that professional pilots utilize? Have you ever heard the expression, "the more you know, the less you know". Well, I have a feeling you know everything. I'm curious, what type of flying do you do?

------

OK, happy new year everybody. The wife is suggesting it's time to get outta here.
 
Silvaire said:
This thread serves as a perfect example of how the simplest question posed on POA can turn into the most absurd cafeteria food fight ever witnessed.

Finally, to the original poster of the question: If that's the way you were taught and it hasn't been causing you any trouble then stick with it. But don't expect the rest of us to change our routine just because of that.
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yeah I agree- 10 pages on this question is kind of crazy.

As the person who asked the original question. I don't expect anyone to change the way they fly based on a post on a message board.
 
Velocity173 said:
Just one more reason to enter all patterns with a straight in. You won't have to worry about deploying flaps in a turn. Of course if one side suddenly retracts on short final you're screwed. :(
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Then you just roll with it into an Overhead Break all smooooth like.
 
For what it's worth:

I use flaps in a turn if I need them. In the military overhead break style traffic pattern, the flaps and landing gear are lowered as soon as the airplane decelerates through 250 knots and is below 2G load factor. That usually occurs around a 60 degree angle of bank and the aircraft is rolled wings level as the flaps and gear transition. I've never been struck with asymmetric flaps in real life, but in simulator training full stick deflection countered and corrected for the roll during the WTF moment, then the flap position was figured out and the asymmetry minimized.

I do my best to wait until level flight before RETRACTING the flaps. Simple reason being that stall speed in a level turn is higher than stall speed straight and level. In a jet where I have an AOA gauge it's not a huge deal, and if I'm clearly at safe clean flying speed I don't worry about it, but all things equal I'll wait until level flight to retract the flaps since the numbers for stall speeds are published for level flight.

Many airplanes have the capability to counter an asymmetric flap with FULL control deflection. A pilot just can't be afraid to use up to full deflection to keep the airplane flying if required.
 
And then one night I finally had them stick at 40 during a touch and go in my own darned well-maintained airplane. %*+!£}]?£*++*% !!!
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I had the same darn thing happen to me in a Cardinal. At night, doing a go-around at a small poorly lit airport (Giddens Texas). That's one of the few times I've been really scared in an airplane.
 
Fly straight down the centerline on downwind at 1000' AGL. Roll inverted with aileron, and pull hard on the elevator. Do a wheelie at the bottom of the arc. It impresses people.

See? you need elevator to turn 180 degrees. ;)
 
Fearless Tower said:
I believe it was Sparky who made the statement. It is in his Mountain Flying book and was a generalized recommendation IF the mfr did not specify a flap setting.
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I'd like to see the research which led him to that conclusion. That said, I haven't seen an aircraft built in the last 50 years or so which had flaps but no recommendation in the POH or owner's manual for flap setting for short-field takeoffs.
 
RhinoDrvr said:
For what it's worth:

I use flaps in a turn if I need them. In the military overhead break style traffic pattern, the flaps and landing gear are lowered as soon as the airplane decelerates through 250 knots and is below 2G load factor. That usually occurs around a 60 degree angle of bank and the aircraft is rolled wings level as the flaps and gear transition. I've never been struck with asymmetric flaps in real life, but in simulator training full stick deflection countered and corrected for the roll during the WTF moment, then the flap position was figured out and the asymmetry minimized.

I do my best to wait until level flight before RETRACTING the flaps. Simple reason being that stall speed in a level turn is higher than stall speed straight and level. In a jet where I have an AOA gauge it's not a huge deal, and if I'm clearly at safe clean flying speed I don't worry about it, but all things equal I'll wait until level flight to retract the flaps since the numbers for stall speeds are published for level flight.

Many airplanes have the capability to counter an asymmetric flap with FULL control deflection. A pilot just can't be afraid to use up to full deflection to keep the airplane flying if required.
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Hadn't ever thought about this until now.....can you guys have the barn door LEF failure like we can/could, or was that designed out? Speaking of catastrophic flap failures....
 
I use flaps when I need flaps. Even though I was taught to only add flaps when straight and level, I'll add flaps during a turn if I need to. Even going so far as to add flaps at the same time as initiating a turn.
I've also been known to not use flaps unless I get a tad low on short final, then crank in all 40 degrees at once. (engine out practice) You'd be surprized at the initial altitude gain, usually just enough to make your spot. But sometimes you'll end up high, and have to slip with flaps to hit the spot. :yikes:
 
I never understand these threads: People fly a certain way everyday (not putting flaps in while turning) in order to prevent a possible control problem when a 1:1M split flap deployment happens. That or they do it just because their instructor told them to.

Yet, when I fly with other pilots they will cross control base to final, bank steeply vs. overshoot, etc. and never do something as simple as keeping the wing unloaded through all of this. When I ask about it, most have never even heard of the concept.

Sometimes it seems pilots are being taught a bunch of nit crap vs. the things that could save lives. I wasn't going to go there, but I keep reading pages of this and I just thought, what the hell.:dunno:
 
Alexb2000 said:
Sometimes it seems pilots are being taught a bunch of nit crap vs. the things that could save lives.
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It's hardly a matter of this vs that.

There are a whole bunch of little things that are just kinda good habits to get into. The flap thing is one I'd like to instill in my students, but it gets very little emphasis compared to the biggies you mentioned.

Student puts down flaps while turning base, and I'll just encourage him to plan so as to do it on downwind or base. Like I do. Not a big deal at all, though.

That other things you mention ARE a big deal, and would be treated as such.

I just don't agree that it's one OR the other.

BTW, isn't preventing "a possible control problem" a worthy goal, no matter how unlikely? Especially if it's so easy to do?

Rhetorical question, I suppose, since many here have clearly voted "no", which is fine.
 
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35 AoA said:
Hadn't ever thought about this until now.....can you guys have the barn door LEF failure like we can/could, or was that designed out? Speaking of catastrophic flap failures....
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Yes, it's spoken to, but apparently our jet flies much better in that configuration than the Hornet does/did. Still considered a pretty big deal as far as FCS failures though.
 
FastEddieB said:
It's hardly a matter of this vs that.

There are a whole bunch of little things that are just kinda good habits to get into. The flap thing is one I'd like to instill in my students, but it gets very little emphasis compared to the biggies you mentioned.

Student puts down flaps while turning base, and I'll just encourage him to plan so as to do it on downwind or base. Like I do. Not a big deal at all, though.

That other things you mention ARE a big deal, and would be treated as such.

I just don't agree that it's one OR the other.

BTW, isn't preventing "a possible control problem" a worthy goal, no matter how unlikely? Especially if it's so easy to do?

Rhetorical question, I suppose, since many here have clearly voted "no", which is fine.
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You seem very defensive about a nit crap issue. Scour the NTSBs and find a fatality attributed to someone putting flaps down in a turn. Ever hear the expression "there are no new ways to crash an airplane"? It's all been done before ...except for this one, apparently. Lots better things to devote piloting brain cells toward.
 
I don't feel defensive.

I just want to be sure my position is clearly articulated.

I will absolutely, 100%, not ever change the procedures of the experienced pilots on this site who not wish to change. That is not my goal, nor do I care how you or they deploy flaps.

But when it's implied that because I prefer my students to not deploy flaps in turns that I'm somehow neglecting other, far more important issues, well, I take exception to that.

I continue posting to this thread for the benefit of prospective, student or new pilots who will benefit from hearing both sides clearly articulated so they can make an informed decision on their technique going forward.

Finally, I CAN think of a handful of procedures that I HAVE changed due to posts on a message board. Beyond pilots firmly ensconced in one particular way of doing things, there exist pilots who are constantly on the hunt for better or safer ways to do things. I know I am!
 
Wow! I checked in to this thread because I could not believe there could be this many posts arguing arguing about whether, as an SOP to forego something as unnecessary as an in-turn flap deployment, even though the associated risk involved is very low. But there it was, including insults worthy of the the Red Board.
 
I use the flaps when I need them. One thing a very high time CFI and glider pilot taught me was that adding flaps in the turn will increase the rate of turn without increasing bank angle (as you create more lift in the early stages of flap deployment and you are banked so decreasing turn radius). Useful trick if you want to keep it tight without cranking and banking too much.... I've never really felt a great amount of difference either way.
 
Alright let's finish this. Men put in flaps whenever you want. Ladies and children only in straight flight. Matter is settled.
 
A little-known fact for you - bush flying is so dangerous because the pilots are always putting the flaps down while turning.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Reference to the AOPA forums. Referred to as "Red Board" because of the background color. Like this one is sometimes referred to as the "Blue Board."
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Thanks for that...I didn't even know AOPA had a forum, I only knew about EAA.
 
Have been cranking flaps in while turning base and again to final, and configuring for stalls and slow flight while doing clearing turns for about 1600 hours. The way I was taught and the way I teach. Have never read any contraindication in any Flight manual or POH. Heard of one occurrence of asymmetric flap extention in a Navajo where power had to be reduced to allow wing leveling with ailerons, due to the prop wash over the flaps at full power. As far as pitch changes go in the turn, I have never noticed a problem. For what it's worth.
 
7 pages? Wow. Excuse me for not wanting to read it all! So to flaps and turns, any of you ever take a mountain flyer class? Say you turn up a wrong canyon and need to reverse course to get out, or run into weather in a pass and need to do a tight 180* turn. What do you do? Slow it up, bank it to about 45*, go full power, and grab full or near full flaps. The plane will turn in a surprisingly short radius. It's a life saver. Flaps are an important tool. Even during max performance turns.
 
Since this was dug up...

It might be cool if there were an experimental 152 where you could in the cockpit override one of the flaps from extending just for demo and teaching purposes... Especially since there were so many experts yet few to actually experience it... That had to be the most painful 7 page post I've ever had to go through... I'm ashamed of myself for wasting my time.
 
I wish someone named Jack would post. Then I could say "It's about the flap, Jack."
 
You can call me Jack, been called a lot worse....
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Tldr;

So what's all the flaps about?
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Some pilots learned to generally avoid deploying flaps while turning.

I learned that way and taught that way.

The chances of any given pilot ever having a split flap situation during his or her career are very, very small. So small that many here think taking any action that might ameliorate the consequences is stupid.

And never the twain shall meet!
 
FastEddieB said:
Some pilots learned to generally avoid deploying flaps while turning.

I learned that way and taught that way.

The chances of any given pilot ever having a split flap situation during his or her career are very, very small. So small that many here think taking any action that might ameliorate the consequences is stupid.
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What I have discovered....with those models with just an up and down electric flap lever....the risk is letting the motor run and getting full flaps. So, one could be distracted in a turn and inadvertently deploy full flaps.

I suppose the real reason is the risk of a base to final issue.....adding the flaps increases the angle of attack....and potentially increases the risk of a stall in that slower speed configuration.
 
thread_resurrection.jpg

Indeed Robin.

Notice the cleverly disguised half dressed man wearing essentially tights and silk underwear, next to a much younger boy looking man, also wearing tights.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
What I have discovered....with those models with just an up and down electric flap lever....the risk is letting the motor run and getting full flaps. So, one could be distracted in a turn and inadvertently deploy full flaps.

I suppose the real reason is the risk of a base to final issue.....adding the flaps increases the angle of attack....and potentially increases the risk of a stall in that slower speed configuration.
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I always thought flaps lowered stall speeds. Huh learn something every day.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I always thought flaps lowered stall speeds. Huh learn something every day.
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To be fair, I think he's talking about a "downwind turn" type issue - one of pilot error and perception rather than reality. In most aircraft, deploying flaps produces a significant pitch moment that requires the right correction. A pilot caught unaware and distracted might inadvertently correct in a way that results in an unintended increased angle of attack. Maybe even more likely to do so in a descending turn than straightt flight - unnecessary pulling up during descending turns in the pattern seems pretty common to begin with. To use the FAA's latest emphasis area, it's a potential loss of control issue, most of which are pilot-induced.
 
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