Putting flaps in during a turn

jspilot

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
Oct 22, 2011
Messages
1,346
Display Name

Display name:
jspilot
I was always taught that putting flaps in during a turn( like down wind to base or base to final) was a bad thing to do and infact could jeopardize the safety of the flight. I was told that if a flap differnetial deployment occurred during this time, where one flap extended and the other did not, that the plane would become uncontrolable and a certain spin or crash would result. Now, I watch several you tube videos of pilots flying and see many people putting flaps in during turns, even steep banks.

I was taught that wings should be level when putting in flaps and have stuck to that rule. It literally just means you wait maybe 5 seconds more after turning base or final as opposed to putting flaps down during the turn. What does everyone think about this? Anyone else taught not to put flaps in during a turn and to wait till wings level before putting them in?
 
I was taught to wait for wings level as well.
 
If you can handle the pitch change midturn I don't see a problem with it. Asymmetric deployment is rare and going to get you or not.
 
This came up recently.

It's how I was taught, and how I taught my students.

It's extremely unlikely that any given pilot will ever end up with a split flap condition.

But it does happen.

I've just never heard it clearly articulated what is to be gained by deploying flaps while turning. If there's even an infinitesimal risk, why not just wait?
 
It you're flying a perfectly "normal" pattern there is no real reason to deploy flaps while turning, but not every pattern entry is textbook. I have no problem with deploying flaps in a turn if I need them.
 
I've always waited until level.

I agree that a split-flap is a low probability situation, but being wings level at the start gives you one less thing to muddle a quick recognition and reaction to the situation when it happens...
 
I just deploy flaps when I need flaps. If you want to wait until you are level there is no problem with it. I don't teach one or the other.
 
Put them in when you need them, if that happens to be in a bank then so be it. If you find yourself in a bank every time you add flaps then you'll probably want to rethink your SOPs. Honestly, where does some of this stuff come from?
 
Apply flaps when and as needed.
 
I was taught to apply them straight and level. Now I fly a maule and not all approaches are suitable to becoming level when you would want to apply flaps, so I apply them when they are needed regardless.

Can anyone point us to a report of split flaps in a turn causing an accident? It occurred to me as I transitioned to the Maule that I've never actually seen a report of such an accident. An NTSB search only return five hits for split flaps. None are this situation.
 
It's extremely unlikely that any given pilot will ever end up with a split flap condition.

It happened to me. In a turn, no less. Manual flaps. I could feel it when I applied the flaps. No big deal, just retract the flaps to zero.

It's a bigger deal with the big fowler flaps on the Cessna's but I don't think it is an insurmountable problem.
 
I'm no expert on the matter by any means, but I was taught that it's not really the best thing to do. In a turn, you've got one wing producing more lift than the other, of course, which causes a change in pitch, which is usually going to be nose down already since you're descending. So you've already got to pay close attention to your pitch attitude, adding flaps will change the pitch attitude even more if you don't stay on it. Will it not also increase the difference in lift being produced between the wings, or will it remain the same?

It feels to me like adding them during a turn will just make a coordinated turn while descending more tricky then necessary.

When I'm flying a proper pattern, I'll put in 10-15 degrees when I'm abeam the numbers, depending on altitude, when ready I'll make my base turn, add another 10 degrees once wings are level during base leg, turn to final, add the rest of the flaps once wings are level on final. This has been a good SOP for me thus far, but then again, not all patterns are right where they should be so I make adjustments as necessary.
 
Just think...if we all just stay on the ground and give up flying completely we will be able to avoid every single flying risk imaginable.
 
I'm no expert on the matter by any means, but I was taught that it's not really the best thing to do. In a turn, you've got one wing producing more lift than the other,
Not in a stable turn, only when rolling in or rolling out. If one wing were producing more lift than the other, you'd keep rolling. Of course, if the ailerons are centered once you achieve desired bank angle, you may some rolling tendency into the bank due to unequal speed over the wings or dihedral effect, but we use a bit of aileron to hold the bank angle steady once established in the turn, and then both wings are creating the same amount of lift.

of course, which causes a change in pitch,
The change in pitch when rolled into a turn without back pressure is not due to one wing producing more lift than the other, but rather due to the reduction in vertical component of lift due to bank angle, and the aircraft's attempt to maintain trimmed speed.

which is usually going to be nose down already since you're descending.
The pitch change when banked is always going to be nose-down regardless of the initial pitch attitude (assuming no change in pitch force or trim setting is made).

So you've already got to pay close attention to your pitch attitude, adding flaps will change the pitch attitude even more if you don't stay on it. Will it not also increase the difference in lift being produced between the wings, or will it remain the same?
Only way flap application creates a difference in lift when banked is if the flaps deploy asymmetrically.

It feels to me like adding them during a turn will just make a coordinated turn while descending more tricky then necessary.
No significant change in rudder required other than due to reduction in airspeed caused by increase in drag, and change in yaw balance due to increased power to keep the same sink rate with greater drag.

When I'm flying a proper pattern, I'll put in 10-15 degrees when I'm abeam the numbers, depending on altitude, when ready I'll make my base turn, add another 10 degrees once wings are level during base leg, turn to final, add the rest of the flaps once wings are level on final. This has been a good SOP for me thus far, but then again, not all patterns are right where they should be so I make adjustments as necessary.
That's a perfectly fine technique.
 
Last edited:
If you think your about to overshoot a turn to final (or loc) a bit ..lower those flaps..they can help you "pivot" onto the centerline without the need for near excessive bank ..

I was shown this on my ATP checkride in a baron ..works we'll in planes big or small
 
Last edited:
In a turn, you've got one wing producing more lift than the other, of course...

I do not think that's the case in a coordinated turn.

When rolling into or out of a turn, yes, but not IN a turn.

Right?

edited to add: I should have read all the replies. Looks like Captain Ron covered this already.
 
Last edited:
I do not think that's the case in a coordinated turn.

When rolling into or out of a turn, yes, but not IN a turn.

Right?

Think of it in terms of drag an it easier to feel it
 
Last edited:
Of course, if the ailerons are centered once you achieve desired bank angle, you'll have some rolling tendency into the bank, but we use a bit of opposite aileron to hold the bank angle steady once established in the turn, and then both wings are creating the same amount of lift.

I recall the following, though I do not recall the source.

Shallow turn - one where the stability of the plane will try to roll you level and some aileron will need to be held into the turn to maintain a given bank angle.

Medium turn - one where the plane will, on its own, maintain the same bank angle without any aileron applied.

Steep turn - one where the overbanking tendency takes over and aileron will have to be held against the turn to maintain a given bank angle.

Anyone else remember this, or did I just dream it? :confused:
 
As others have stated, add flaps as needed when needed. If not comfortable, wait until level.
If it was inherently dangerous the heavy flyers wouldn't do it almost every flight.
 
Shallow turn - one where the stability of the plane will try to roll you level and some aileron will need to be held into the turn to maintain a given bank angle.
...where dihedral effect overcomes the airflow difference.

Medium turn - one where the plane will, on its own, maintain the same bank angle without any aileron applied.
...where dihedral effect balances airflow difference.

Steep turn - one where the overbanking tendency takes over and aileron will have to be held against the turn to maintain a given bank angle.
...where dihedral effect is smaller than airflow difference.

But in the two unbalanced cases, aileron is used to balance the total lift from each wing, otherwise the plane would roll off the desired bank angle. So, in a steady turn, lift is equal between the two wings. Only when rolling is it unequal.

And I've edited the original post to be more accurate.
 
Last edited:
Seems we have lots of people saying, "I was taught not to..." I don't consider that a great reason to be either for against anything. Since most people hardly bank more than 20 degrees in the pattern, I fail to see how it makes much difference. I don't see a failure during a shallow bank as any more serious than in level flight. Either way, you better handle it correctly. And in steep turns, the outside wing does create a little more lift, hence the overbanking tendency in many airplanes, but I fail to see the relevance to this discussion. I don't think applying flaps in a turn is something a pilot should worry about.
 
This conversation is really silly, roll the flaps in whenever you want and just correct for the result, that's why we have controls. In IMC it makes sense to use flaps at given points to maintain stability of the needles, VFR though, you will correct for the changes without even thinking about it. It's not unusual at all for me to be putting in the flaps in a turning approach for the threshold.
 
"I was taught" is a common response to most of these questions- especially about flaps and slipping.
What you were "taught" is rote basic procedures to get by a checkride without risking a negative decision on judgement.
But to operate the airplane most effectively and efficiently, the pilot should be skilled in the use of these techniques to get the airplane to go where you want it to.
Use of flaps and slips while turning and otherwise maneuvering to land is an esential skill to be developed.
 
Let me tell a little story…

First, the plane:

It’s a 1976 Cessna 172. 8,352 hours, used regularly as a trainer, but generally well maintained.

But on the left flap actuating rod, right adjacent to the jam nut, there’s a hairline fracture that would need a magnifying glass to see. Its the result of more than one overstress as a student has put down flaps above Vfe. The crack is about 3/4 of the way through the rod and about to let go. In fact, its going to fail on the very next flight, as the flaps go from 10º to 20º, and the split flap situation it causes will roll the airplane left at about 30º/second.


Second, the pilots:

Bob was one of my students. From the first touch and goes, we only applied flaps in straight and level flight - 10º on downwind, 20º on base and full flaps on final with the field made. I emphasized it was safest to deploy flaps when level, and to plan his patterns to do so. I explained that while split flaps were extremely rare, they can and did happen and if they ever did, he’d be more likely to recognize what was going on and deal with it if the uncommanded roll began from wings level. Anyway, it became a habit, which was my intention, and now with 550 hours he no longer even really thinks about it.

Carol was not a student of mine. Though she was taught a similar use of flaps in the pattern, her instructor never really emphasized that there was any specific reason she only deployed flaps while on a leg in the pattern, and not while turning. Now, with 1,200 hours she pretty much puts down flaps whenever and wherever in the pattern she feels like it, and has the skill to do so. Just not an issue, and not worth worrying about.


Finally, the fateful day.

Bob has just rolled out on base, is in a good position and altitude and reaches for the flap switch to go to 20º. The right flap obediently goes to 20º right as the left flap control rod fails and the left flap retracts completely. In the two seconds of “deer in the headlights” adrenaline-spiked delay, the 172 has rolled 60º left into a 60º bank. He finally responds by pushing forward and applying opposite aileron, which stops the roll and seems to barely be decreasing the bank. Finally it dawns on him to undo the last thing he did and he retracts the flaps, regaining normal control. Whew! He leaves the flaps alone, gets back in the pattern and makes an acceptable no-flap landing and taxis in with the left flap dangling free. What a story!

Carol, like Bob, put down 10º of flaps on downwind. Now, as she rolls into her typical 30º bank for the turn to base, she figures its a good time to deploy the next “notch” of flaps. The right flap obediently goes to 20º right as the left flap control rod fails and the left flap retracts completely. In the two seconds of “deer in the headlights” adrenaline-spiked delay, the 172 has rolled 60º left into a 90º bank. This is not something she has ever seen before - the 172 in knife edged flight on its way to being inverted. She responds reflexively, kicking right (top) rudder while pulling back on the stick - as most pilots untrained in aerobatics will do when inverted. The airport security cameras catch it all, and the NTSB report mentioned some combination of “Split-S” and “Snap Roll/Spin” in the accident report. No need to mention that it was a fatality.


The above scenarios are not being put forth for the benefit of the grizzled, high time pilots who have been doing what they’ve been doing, one way or another, for decades and thousands of hours. I know all about old dogs and new tricks, and how anyone chooses to fly does not really impact me one way or another.

But I would advise any prospective, student or new pilot to carefully consider the above scenarios and how you might respond to each. And to look carefully for the well reasoned argument that deploying flaps in turns is somehow necessary. Cropdusters and airliners and specific cases aside, I just have not heard any convincing argument.

But That’s Just Me!™
 
Let me tell a little story…



Second, the pilots:

Bob was one of my students. I emphasized it was safest to deploy flaps when level, and to plan his patterns to do so.

Carol was not a student of mine. Though she was taught a similar use of flaps in the pattern, her instructor never really emphasized that there was any specific reason she only deployed flaps while on a leg in the pattern, and not while turning.

Finally, the fateful day.

Bob has just rolled out on base...
... He finally responds by pushing forward and applying opposite aileron, which stops the roll and seems to barely be decreasing the bank.
...Whew! He leaves the flaps alone, gets back in the pattern and makes an acceptable no-flap landing and taxis in with the left flap dangling free. What a story!

Carol...
...as she rolls into her typical 30º bank for the turn to base
...This is not something she has ever seen before - the 172 in knife edged flight on its way to being inverted.
...She responds reflexively, kicking right (top) rudder while pulling back on the stick - as most pilots untrained in aerobatics will do when inverted.


But That’s Just Me!™

But neither of them has seen it before. While Bob might identify the problem sooner, I'm not entirely sure his automatic reaction would really be any better. I think it depends on the pilot, not what they were taught 500 hours ago and probably haven't thought about since. I think it should be taught both ways, and explain the pro's and con's of each.
 
Well, since it would be kinda hard for them to both have the same failure at the same time in the same plane, it was a pure hypothetical.

Food for thought, as it were.

Just trying to dramatize that flaps in a turn could cause problems that flaps in unbanked flight might not present.

But we can all come to our own conclusions, and I will stipulate that split flaps are so rare that there's nothing inherently unsafe about deploying flaps in turns.

I just see no need to do it with proper planning, so I don't.
 
But Carol would be in a better situation than Bob if it was her "wing high" flap that failed...which s a 50/50 chance...so she's got a 50% chance of being better off and a 50% chance of being worse off.

So she breaks even, no?
 
Last edited:
I put flaps down when I need them where I need them based on what I want the airplane to do and where I want it to go. I teach my students the same.
 
But Carol would be in a better situation than Bob if it was her "wing high" flap that failed...which s a 50/50 chance...so she's got a 50% chance of being better off and a 50% chance of being worse off.

So she breaks even, no?

Great point, and one I thought of, but decided against complicating things with.

So, I was presenting a single, worst case scenario to make a point.

But glad to see people are paying attention!
 
I was always taught that putting flaps in during a turn( like down wind to base or base to final) was a bad thing to do and infact could jeopardize the safety of the flight.

I don't remember if I was taught anything about extending flaps in a turn 37 years ago. I actually like extending my Cherokee's manual flaps in a turn. I certainly don't think asymmetrical deployment would be an issue. With the "hands on" feel of the manual flaps, any weirdness that occurs as one begins moving the handle can quickly be reversed. The one thing I do wonder about, though is if the increased G forces of the turn could over stress the flaps. Any idea? I certainly would not do it in a steep turn.

As I think about it more, if one can turn with flaps or without flaps, there shouldn't be any problem with being anywhere in between.
 
Last edited:
Airplane Flying Handbook seems moot (mute?) on the point, but...

"The time of flap extension and the degree of deflection are related. Large flap deflections at one single point in the landing pattern produce large lift changes that require significant pitch and power changes in order to maintain airspeed and descent angle. Consequently, the deflection of flaps at certain positions in the landing pattern has definite advantages. Incremental deflection of flaps on downwind, base leg, and final approach allow smaller adjustment of pitch and power compared to extension of full flaps all at one time."

Seems to favor "deflection of flaps on downwind, base leg and final approach", implying when established on those segments.

But admittedly I'm reaching a bit here.
 
Airplane Flying Handbook seems moot (mute?) on the point, but...

Moot.

But, then again, since books can't talk...

BTW...what power adjustment? Entire pattern is flown at idle, if I do it properly. :yesnod:

Seems to favor "deflection of flaps on downwind, base leg and final approach", implying when established on those segments.

But admittedly I'm reaching a bit here.

For the record, I put in the first notch and trim for 80 (mph) abeam the numbers. Turn base, check the sight picture and, if it looks right or if I look high, I put in the second notch immediately. The third notch can be added during base, while turning final, or after turning final depending on what I'm seeing. Fourth notch is added on short final when the runway is guaranteed.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top