Pre buy pre buy pre buy!!

Skylane81E

Skylane81E

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Have them done, and by a new mechanic to the plane!

As of today folks bringing me planes with out one are batting 1000 for needing expensive work at the first annual.
 
Itemize each expensive finding, and what prebuy techniques would have found them.
ie your metal-making engine (I assume that is one of them). "Cutting Oil Filter Open." (and in case its a fresh filter, "Pulling a Mag"?

Starting such a list is the only way to come up with a standard Prebuy Inspection. Right now, everybody has their own - there is a wide variety out there for the 'minimum acceptable prebuy inspection'.
 
oh come on where is your sense of adventure??
 
The metal may not have been caught, this is the second oil change Ive done on this plane, the first had no metal in the filter or screen. However a plane that flew 3 hrs/yr for a while would have set my spidy scence off. I think that as easy as popping a mag is I may start to recommend it.

However the hole in the muffler would have been found by simple visual inspection, the 21 year old hard as nails hoses are an easy find.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Starting such a list is the only way to come up with a standard Prebuy Inspection. Right now, everybody has their own - there is a wide variety out there for the 'minimum acceptable prebuy inspection'.
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been thinking about this, I'm not sure there can be a standard pre buy check list.

Every buyer has a different expectation, every airplane is different...

Just too many variables to have something set in stone. If the buyer and an experienced mechanic can get ahold of the last few years of log entries ahead of time then they can hash out a plan that meets the buyer's expectations and is appropriate for the airplane type and usage history.

Spending time hunting for engine rust with 6 months and 50hrs TSMO is going to be a waste. Checking the wheel bearings of a plane on a grass tie down flying once or twice a year is probably a very good idea, and so on.
 
The biggest issues for a pre-buy inspections is finding out how each AD was complied with, and in fact that it is really complied with on this aircraft.
 
The most important part of a pre buy to me is lunch with the owner. I learn more there than I can looking at the plane.
 
Henning said:
The most important part of a pre buy to me is lunch with the owner. I learn more there than I can looking at the plane.
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You're just looking for a free lunch from all yer tire-kickers... :p
 
Henning said:
Nope, I ask them for all their maintenance tips, that tells me a heck of a lot.
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I actually was talking about people coming to see your plane.
But, I like where you're headed with this lunch conversation!
 
I have only gotten close enough to buying once to actually get a pre-buy. For other reasons I didn't buy the plane.
But do have a question:
The seller brings the plane to the mechanic of my choice at my expense of course.
The A&P finds something (AD not complied with for instance) that makes the plane not airworthy.
What would you do as the buyer and as the seller?
Can the seller say "screw your mechanic, it is airworthy and take the plane"?
 
markb5900 said:
I have only gotten close enough to buying once to actually get a pre-buy. For other reasons I didn't buy the plane.
But do have a question:
The seller brings the plane to the mechanic of my choice at my expense of course.
The A&P finds something (AD not complied with for instance) that makes the plane not airworthy.
What would you do as the buyer and as the seller?
Can the seller say "screw your mechanic, it is airworthy and take the plane"?
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Both people should ask the mechanic what it will cost to comply/repair the discrepancy.

and then make the decision.

Is the aircraft worth the asking price?

I've bought many aircraft that were not airworthy, even though they were signed off as such. and I have bought aircraft that were not signed off and were safe to fly, and some that were neither.
 
I have no authority to ground a plane, so yes the seller could just fly off.
 
markb5900 said:
I have only gotten close enough to buying once to actually get a pre-buy. For other reasons I didn't buy the plane.
But do have a question:
The seller brings the plane to the mechanic of my choice at my expense of course.
The A&P finds something (AD not complied with for instance) that makes the plane not airworthy.
What would you do as the buyer and as the seller?
Can the seller say "screw your mechanic, it is airworthy and take the plane"?
Click to expand...

Who determines airworthiness? Hint: it ain't the A&P. Not that I would disregard their counsel of course.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Who determines airworthiness? Hint: it ain't the A&P. Not that I would disregard their counsel of course.
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No? But I can make an entry in the logs saying:
" This aircraft is considered unairworthy at this time due to ______."

Remember :

43.11 Content, form, and disposition of records for inspections conducted under parts 91 and 125 and §§135.411(a)(1) and 135.419 of this chapter.

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(a) Maintenance record entries. The person approving or disapproving for return to service an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part after any inspection performed in accordance with part 91, 125, §135.411(a)(1), or §135.419 shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) The type of inspection and a brief description of the extent of the inspection.

(2) The date of the inspection and aircraft total time in service.

(3) The signature, the certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving or disapproving for return to service the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, component part, or portions thereof.
 
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markb5900 said:
I have only gotten close enough to buying once to actually get a pre-buy. For other reasons I didn't buy the plane.
But do have a question:
The seller brings the plane to the mechanic of my choice at my expense of course.
The A&P finds something (AD not complied with for instance) that makes the plane not airworthy.
What would you do as the buyer and as the seller?
Can the seller say "screw your mechanic, it is airworthy and take the plane"?
Click to expand...

Typically one writes the offer being contingent on your acceptance after inspection and test flight. You can reject over those findings for whatever reason.
 
The only real question a buyer should ask their inspector is. "What is this aircraft going to cost me to have you declare it airworthy next annual"?
 
Tom, your below commentary is exactly why it should be clear to all parties involved that it's a pre-buy evaluation and not a pre-buy inspection.

I just had a pre-buy evaluation done on my aircraft and nothing was put in the logbook.

Tom-D said:
No? But I can make an entry in the logs saying:
" This aircraft is considered unairworthy at this time due to ______."

Remember :

43.11 Content, form, and disposition of records for inspections conducted under parts 91 and 125 and §§135.411(a)(1) and 135.419 of this chapter.

top
(a) Maintenance record entries. The person approving or disapproving for return to service an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part after any inspection performed in accordance with part 91, 125, §135.411(a)(1), or §135.419 shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) The type of inspection and a brief description of the extent of the inspection.

(2) The date of the inspection and aircraft total time in service.

(3) The signature, the certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving or disapproving for return to service the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, component part, or portions thereof.
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Finish the sentence:"any inspection performed in accordance with part 91," Prebuy inspection is not listed in Pt 91.
 
Henning said:
Finish the sentence:"any inspection performed in accordance with part 91," Prebuy inspection is not listed in Pt 91.
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Good you saw that, so be care full what you call the pre-buy, want to have the aircraft inspected IAW an annual? like most here advise.
 
Tom-D said:
Good you saw that, so be care full what you call the pre-buy, want to have the aircraft inspected IAW an annual? like most here advise.
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Even having the aircraft inspected IAW the manufacturers guidance for an annual, if not performed as the required annual under pt 91, does not mean it's an annual. If not in ownership or operational control (that's dispatch, not piloting) the buyer has no standing to request an "Annual Inspection" and the mechanic has no standing to enter it into the log as such.
 
Henning said:
Even having the aircraft inspected IAW the manufacturers guidance for an annual, if not performed as the required annual under pt 91, does not mean it's an annual. If not in ownership or operational control (that's dispatch, not piloting) the buyer has no standing to request an "Annual Inspection" and the mechanic has no standing to enter it into the log as such.
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yes it is, because the annual can be completed at any time.

when you are hired to do an annual that is what's entered into the log.
 
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Tom-D said:
yes it is, because the annual can be completed at any time.
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I realize that, but how can it be an "Annual Inspection" if the only person authorized to request such does not? I can order an inspection to the same scope of an annual on your plane, but I can't order an Annual Inspection.
 
It's very simple. The buyer's mech is given complete COPIES of the logs, and does an inspection IAW an annual. If the buyer eventually buys, he can have ti entered into the logbooks.

If the buyer balks, there's nothing in the logbooks. Two way protection.
 
bbchien said:
It's very simple. The buyer's mech is given complete COPIES of the logs, and does an inspection IAW an annual. If the buyer eventually buys, he can have ti entered into the logbooks.

If the buyer balks, there's nothing in the logbooks. Two way protection.
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I don't believe that will comply with FAR 43.11. Specially when the buyers mech knows the logs area duplicate.

FAR 43 is quite explicit when an inspection is pulled there will be an entry. So unless the duplicate record becomes part of the Maintenance records some body will be in violation.

Check FAR 43.12
 
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If a buyer is dumb enough to believe that a mechanic knows the answer to that question, he's probably dumb enough to buy almost anything.

If the mechanic is dumb enough to think he knows the answer to that question you don't wan't him to ever touch your airplane.

Tom-D said:
The only real question a buyer should ask their inspector is. "What is this aircraft going to cost me to have you declare it airworthy next annual"?
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I think it's to the buyer's advanatage to review the scope of work that would be performed if the pre-buy shop performed an annual inspection, simply so he will know what's on the list and what's not. Once he has that document in hand, he can create a specific list of items he wants done as part of the pre-buy, along with any others he desires. Maybe it will be all of the items, maybe only a portion of them. Whether the list catches everything wrong with the airplane will be dependent on numerous factors, but the shop, the buyer and the seller will all know in advance what the buyer proposes to inspect.

The buyer should also understand that the list used by one shop will probably vary from that used by another shop. My contracts specify that the buyer will pay for the inspection, the seller will pay to fix airworthiness squawks. If the seller won't agree to fix the squawks, the seller pays for the inspection. Cosmetic squawks and recommended but non-mandatory items are not considered as airworthiness issues.
 
bbchien said:
You might be right, Tom, but it's done all the time.
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I know, and it is done so often this board believes that it is normal.

Members here think that by getting an annual for a pre-buy inspection you are free of worries about getting stuck with a maintenance nightmare.

Every ones opinion of what they will except as a daily flyer is different. So the only way a seller can be truthful is to sell the aircraft "AS IS, WHERE IS" and price it right.

and the only way to buy any aircraft is get smart enough to know a good aircraft, and a good deal when they see it.

If you can't do that, then you deserve what you get.
 
Biggest advantage of doings an annual for a pre buy is that you get something besides an opinion for your inspection dollars.

Just my humble.

Sometimes I will recommend work be done beyond the annual too though. Every purchase is different.
 
Skylane81E said:
Biggest advantage of doings an annual for a pre buy is that you get something besides an opinion for your inspection dollars.

Just my humble.

Sometimes I will recommend work be done beyond the annual too though. Every purchase is different.
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No, you get a list of required items to be looked at. and an opinion as to what some body thinks is airworthy.
 
And a reset of the annual inspection clock, tear it appart, do 3/4 or more of the items on the annual inspection list and then button it up, 6 months later you open it up again?


I'd rather get an annual for my inspection dollars if I'm actually going to buy the thing.
 
Too many circumstances to make that call every time. For example, the pre-buy may be performed in a shop on the seller's field in NJ by a mechanic from Dallas with a specific list of stuff that can be inspected in a day's time on an airplane with a fresh annual and the mechanic who did it standing by to assist with the pre-buy.

Skylane81E said:
And a reset of the annual inspection clock, tear it appart, do 3/4 or more of the items on the annual inspection list and then button it up, 6 months later you open it up again?


I'd rather get an annual for my inspection dollars if I'm actually going to buy the thing.
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Tom-D said:
No, you get a list of required items to be looked at. and an opinion as to what some body thinks is airworthy.
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:confused: Isn't that what you are paying them for? If I specify that they inspect the plane according to its specifications for annual, that should cover the airworthiness items for the most part.
 
wabower said:
Too many circumstances to make that call every time. For example, the pre-buy may be performed in a shop on the seller's field in NJ by a mechanic from Dallas with a specific list of stuff that can be inspected in a day's time on an airplane with a fresh annual and the mechanic who did it standing by to assist with the pre-buy.
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True, but that doesn't help when the plane is brought to your mechanic that will maintain the plane in the future for you when they have never seen the plane. Every deal is different, but you still want to make sure all the items are covered.
 
The mechanic who conducted the inspection in NJ was the one who will (and does) maintain it now. All of us knew that the inspection would be somewhat limited due to circumstances, and the buyer was comfortable with that knowledge. The items to be inspected were left to the discretion of the mechanic, a long-tooth veteran of Bonanza MX.

I went along to read the logs and inspect the records and hold the compression test gage (or whatever other help was needed) and help fly it back to Dallas. That event occurred two years ago, and so far the only undiscovered surprise was some light corrosion inside the NLG strut and an unexpected issue with the flow divider. The deice line for the STC'd wing protection started to leak during the past winter but was simple to fix. Overall, a nice A-36 for the client, and the best buy on the market when we made the deal.

Henning said:
True, but that doesn't help when the plane is brought to your mechanic that will maintain the plane in the future for you when they have never seen the plane. Every deal is different, but you still want to make sure all the items are covered.
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Henning said:
True, but that doesn't help when the plane is brought to your mechanic that will maintain the plane in the future for you when they have never seen the plane. Every deal is different, but you still want to make sure all the items are covered.
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OK now you have an aircraft that has a fresh annual..

Does that tell you it flys ok or that all the radios work properly? Nope.

Does an annual tell you how much time life is left on any times lifed items? nope.

A smart buyer will know the type well enough to know what to look for, For an example, Knowing certain cylinders sux isn't some thing any annual will tell you.
 
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