Pre buy pre buy pre buy!!

[wabower]

Based on numerous (lost count after a few hundred) airplanes that I have bought and/or represented the buyer, I disagree with that notion, assuming the aircraft cost is more than that of a Toyota Corolla.

If the guy who will maintain the airplane for the buyer performs the pre-buy inspection and is able to check everything he wants to see, and knows what he's looking at or should be looking at for that particular make/model, he will normally check his "hot-button" list very carefully. Time and circumstances don't always allow for such a pre-buy, in which case the buyer has some additional cost exposure, but those should be the exception rather than the rule.

That's not to say something expensive might not break the next day, or be discovered on the next inspection after the purchase, but the reason the buyer spends the money for the pre-buy is to prevent the big oopsies after the purchase.

I've always heard that the buyer of any airplane should figure on paying 10% of the cost after the sale to get it to fix the things missed in the pre-buy and pass an annual at a different shop than was used by the seller.

I've only been involved in a few plane purchases, but that's been my experience.

It seems like every A&I has different ideas of what is important, but they all agree that the last maintainer was an idiot.

Richard Bach says every airplane, everywhere, has things wrong with it. I think he's correct.

 

[Jaybird180]

The buyer should also understand that the list used by one shop will probably vary from that used by another shop. My contracts specify that the buyer will pay for the inspection, the seller will pay to fix airworthiness squawks. If the seller won't agree to fix the squawks, the seller pays for the inspection. Cosmetic squawks and recommended but non-mandatory items are not considered as airworthiness issues.

What do you think of having the seller pay for things that are reasonbly likely to be airworthiness isssues within the 364 days following the inspection? Or am I dreaming?

Based on numerous (lost count after a few hundred) airplanes that I have bought and/or represented the buyer, I disagree with that notion, assuming the aircraft cost is more than that of a Toyota Corolla.

If the guy who will maintain the airplane for the buyer performs the pre-buy inspection and is able to check everything he wants to see, and knows what he's looking at or should be looking at for that particular make/model, he will normally check his "hot-button" list very carefully. Time and circumstances don't always allow for such a pre-buy, in which case the buyer has some additional cost exposure, but those should be the exception rather than the rule.

That's not to say something expensive might not break the next day, or be discovered on the next inspection after the purchase, but the reason the buyer spends the money for the pre-buy is to prevent the big oopsies after the purchase.

 

[DaleB]

What do you think of having the seller pay for things that are reasonbly likely to be airworthiness isssues within the 364 days following the inspection? Or am I dreaming?

If I'm buying, the seller is going to pay for anything I feel will need to be fixed soon. Either we discuss a specific amount for specific things, or I just drop what I'm willing to pay by the amount I figure it's going to cost me to fix stuff. Of course the seller isn't' going to pay for squat once you own the plane... so you make the deal you're comfortable with up front, and once you pay you're on your own.

It's just like buying a car, house or anything else. You make an informed decision, then you assume the risk.

 

[alfadog]

What do you think of having the seller pay for things that are reasonbly likely to be airworthiness isssues within the 364 days following the inspection? Or am I dreaming?

You mean some sort of "crystal ball" inspection?

Or something that is optional to repair now but would affect airworthiness if it fails later? Don't know how many items would fit into that category because if an airworthiness-type issue has you worried now about it failing doesn't that make it an airworthiness issue now?

 

[wabower]

I think it's highly unlikely to find a seller willing to do so, but if you do please let me know. I want to buy the next one he sells.:wink2:

What do you think of having the seller pay for things that are reasonbly likely to be airworthiness isssues within the 364 days following the inspection? Or am I dreaming?

 

[wabower]

In which case you aren't buying.

If I'm buying, the seller is going to pay for anything I feel will need to be fixed soon. Either we discuss a specific amount for specific things, or I just drop what I'm willing to pay by the amount I figure it's going to cost me to fix stuff. Of course the seller isn't' going to pay for squat once you own the plane... so you make the deal you're comfortable with up front, and once you pay you're on your own.

It's just like buying a car, house or anything else. You make an informed decision, then you assume the risk.

 

[Jaybird180]

You mean some sort of "crystal ball" inspection?

Or something that is optional to repair now but would affect airworthiness if it fails later? Don't know how many items would fit into that category because if an airworthiness-type issue has you worried now about it failing doesn't that make it an airworthiness issue now?

 

[kgruber]

Most of the really good deals I have run into, time was of essence.

There was a deal, cash right now speaks, no time for a "pre-buy."

One was a 206 seaplane, another were two junker 207s in Anchorage. Yes, they had problems, but that was buffered right at the get go by the low price. Problems were expected and over compensated by the price.

 

[alfadog]

The only things I can think of that would fit your scenario might be something like oil cooler hoses that need to be replaced at 10 years and it is 9.5 years now. Certainly those kinds of things factor into what you would pay. I bought my Arrow with an AD deadline that needed to be complied with in the next few months after purchase.

 

[alfadog]

Most of the really good deals I have run into, time was of essence.

There was a deal, cash right now speaks, no time for a "pre-buy."

One was a 206 seaplane, another were two junker 207s in Anchorage. Yes, they had problems, but that was buffered right at the get go by the low price. Problems were expected and over compensated by the price.

Those deals might be fine for the experienced buyer but the first-timer should steer clear of anything that does not leave them time for the pre-buy unless they are very familiar and comfortable with the airplane and the seller. I can think of very few realistic scenarios that would fit that bill.

 

[Skylane81E]

IOWs, you don't care that the radios don't work, or the ELT is absent, the paint is faded, windows are cloudy, the interior plastic is all cracked, the seats are ripped, etc.

all that counts on value, but does not cause the aircraft to be unairworthy.

My best way to explain a Pre-buy inspection is pretty simple, I'm an A&P-IA, but Ron Levi would give you better pre-buy inspection on a Grumman than I can, He knows the type, the paper work requirements, and the market. he could tell you if the annual preformed last was done by a good shop, he could tell you if the equipment all works as it should. I could do that, but I would have to stop and learn what Ron already knows.

Same goes for the EXP aircraft, you would be better off getting some one who knows or has built one to do the inspection.

Knowing the type of aircraft is better than following a check list.

what are you really wanting to know when you ask for a pre-buy.

Are your annuals really that weak?

Mine aren't but I also avoid using 43 d as much as possible and go to the manufacurers check lists. Infant only once have I used 43 d, and that was due to Cessna deciding that 100hr/annual checklists need not be provided for new 172s. So the plane got 43 d, as well as all the progssive checks required yearly.

 

[Tom-D]

Are your annuals really that weak?

Mine aren't but I also avoid using 43 d as much as possible and go to the manufacurers check lists. Infant only once have I used 43 d, and that was due to Cessna deciding that 100hr/annual checklists need not be provided for new 172s. So the plane got 43 d, as well as all the progssive checks required yearly.

Why would you think what I do as an annual has any bearing on this thread?

 

[wabower]

Questions for the buyer:

1. Who knows more about this plane's condition, use, history, problems, records, resale price point and other related issues" The seller or me?

2. How much time has he had to learn all of this stuff?

3. How much time will I need to be comfortable that I know as much as I need to know in order to make an intelligent decision?

4. Why would anybody with a lick of sense buy one without taking the necessary time to be able to answer these questions?

Those deals might be fine for the experienced buyer but the first-timer should steer clear of anything that does not leave them time for the pre-buy unless they are very familiar and comfortable with the airplane and the seller. I can think of very few realistic scenarios that would fit that bill.

 

[alfadog]

Questions for the buyer:

1. Who knows more about this plane's condition, use, history, problems, records, resale price point and other related issues" The seller or me?

2. How much time has he had to learn all of this stuff?

3. How much time will I need to be comfortable that I know as much as I need to know in order to make an intelligent decision?

4. Why would anybody with a lick of sense buy one without taking the necessary time to be able to answer these questions?

Not sure I get your full point.

Seller has owned the airplane for 15 years. There is no way that I as buyer am going to know as much about the airplane as he does. There is no guarantee that the seller will share everything he knows. And he might lie outright. The best I can do is my due diligence.

As regards your last, it only takes a few minutes to answer these questions

 

[Skylane81E]

Why would you think what I do as an annual has any bearing on this thread?

Because of how little stock you place in the inspection. I understand that there are really crappy mechanics out there doing crappy work. But if the buyer has one of them do the inspection they will get crap results regardless.

I do an annual and I check those things you listed. The owner will get two lists, a gotta do list and a legal but still wrong list.

 

[Skylane81E]

BTW Tom, like sarcasm, we need a rhetorical font.

 

[wabower]

The point is that you need to understand the magnitude of your disadvantage and spend the necessary time to level the field to the point you feel like it's a fair fight.

Not sure I get your full point.

Seller has owned the airplane for 15 years. There is no way that I as buyer am going to know as much about the airplane as he does. There is no guarantee that the seller will share everything he knows. And he might lie outright. The best I can do is my due diligence.

As regards your last, it only takes a few minutes to answer these questions

 

[alfadog]

The point is that you need to understand the magnitude of your disadvantage and spend the necessary time to level the field to the point you feel like it's a fair fight.

Agree. And the money spent on the prebuy should pay for itself.

 

[wabower]

Depending on the amount of help you need, it's the best money you can spend. OTOH, it's amazing to see the cheap-out tactics employed by many buyers and the self-inflicted wallet damage that comes a result.

Agree. And the money spent on the prebuy should pay for itself.

 

[Skylane81E]

Agree. And the money spent on the prebuy should pay for itself.

The best case pre buy is one where you feel you wasted the money due to a clean bill of health.

There have been others that <10 min were required before I felt I needed to call the buyer and tell them to either pass or negotiate a significant discount. Planes being sold as airworthy should not require 5 didgit repairs...

 

[DaleB]

In which case you aren't buying.

My point was, and is, I'm only going to pay what I think the bloody thing is worth. If it would normally be a $50K airplane but I can see it's going to need $10K of work in the next few months, then I'm not paying $50K for it. The seller is, in effect, going to give up that $10K because I'm only going to offer $40K for it.

If we can't agree on a price, then we can't agree on a price and I keep looking. This stuff is really no different than buying anything else, guys. You think hidden or undiscovered problems with an airplane can bite you in the ass? Try buying houses. I'd never do either without inspecting it myself, AND having a professional look for the things I can't see or don't know how to find.

 

[Henning]

What do you think of having the seller pay for things that are reasonbly likely to be airworthiness isssues within the 364 days following the inspection? Or am I dreaming?

Not a chance, "As Is Where Is" is the rule of the day for GA.

 

[wabower]

The seller will then ask how you know what it's going to need later if it doesn't need it now, since the regs don't provide for deferred maintenance on airplanes. He will further assert that the only reason that it will need $10k of work is because that's what you want to do, or say you want to do for purpose of negotiation.

That's not to say you won't be able to buy it for $40k, but raising the "what it's going to need down the road" issue is usually counter-productive when negotiating airplane deals.

My point was, and is, I'm only going to pay what I think the bloody thing is worth. If it would normally be a $50K airplane but I can see it's going to need $10K of work in the next few months, then I'm not paying $50K for it. The seller is, in effect, going to give up that $10K because I'm only going to offer $40K for it.

If we can't agree on a price, then we can't agree on a price and I keep looking. This stuff is really no different than buying anything else, guys. You think hidden or undiscovered problems with an airplane can bite you in the ass? Try buying houses. I'd never do either without inspecting it myself, AND having a professional look for the things I can't see or don't know how to find.

 

[Tom-D]

Because of how little stock you place in the inspection. I understand that there are really crappy mechanics out there doing crappy work. But if the buyer has one of them do the inspection they will get crap results regardless.

I do an annual and I check those things you listed. The owner will get two lists, a gotta do list and a legal but still wrong list.

You are right I do not have much trust in an annual as a pre buy because it will not tell the buyer what they really should know.

there is no substitute for the buyer doing due diligence. and that means they must know a lot more than what the annual will tell them.

Do we add "clear title" to the check list?

 

[wabower]

Do we add "clear title" to the check list?

No need for that if he bought it like he should have done

 

[Tom-D]

No need for that if he bought it like he should have done

It is like I have always said, buyer needs to do their home work.

If you don't know what you are looking at, why buy it.

 

[DaleB]

The seller will then ask how you know what it's going to need later if it doesn't need it now, since the regs don't provide for deferred maintenance on airplanes. He will further assert that the only reason that it will need $10k of work is because that's what you want to do, or say you want to do for purpose of negotiation.

That's not to say you won't be able to buy it for $40k, but raising the "what it's going to need down the road" issue is usually counter-productive when negotiating airplane deals.

If I think it's going to need it, then it's going to need it as far as I'm concerned. If I see something worn but not to the point of being unserviceable -- it's on the list. If the radios are serviceable but ancient, and I'm going to have to replace them... it's on the list. If the A&P doing the inspection at my direction tells me compression is good, but the cylinder walls are pitted or scuffed... it goes on the list. I may or may not share my list with the seller, depending on how things are going... but they are definitely things I will take into account when deciding the price at which I would buy the airplane (or car, or house, or whatever).

The price I will offer or agree to includes items I can see needing to fix or replace in the near future. If the seller doesn't want to meet my price, then we don't have a deal. What's so tough to understand about that?

 

[wabower]

Nothing about it is that hard for me, but I've been directly involved with the purchase of 30-some planes for me and several hundred for other people.

If you're making a list that includes old radios in an old airplane, I think you're smart to keep it to yourself rather than sharing it with the seller, if you really think you might want to buy the airplane. All you're going to do is **** him off even worse, which won't help move the transaction along.

If I think it's going to need it, then it's going to need it as far as I'm concerned. If I see something worn but not to the point of being unserviceable -- it's on the list. If the radios are serviceable but ancient, and I'm going to have to replace them... it's on the list. If the A&P doing the inspection at my direction tells me compression is good, but the cylinder walls are pitted or scuffed... it goes on the list. I may or may not share my list with the seller, depending on how things are going... but they are definitely things I will take into account when deciding the price at which I would buy the airplane (or car, or house, or whatever).

The price I will offer or agree to includes items I can see needing to fix or replace in the near future. If the seller doesn't want to meet my price, then we don't have a deal. What's so tough to understand about that?

 

[alfadog]

Nothing about it is that hard for me, but I've been directly involved with the purchase of 30-some planes for me and several hundred for other people.

If you're making a list that includes old radios in an old airplane, I think you're smart to keep it to yourself rather than sharing it with the seller, if you really think you might want to buy the airplane. All you're going to do is **** him off even worse, which won't help move the transaction along.

Exactly. The seller knows the radios are old or the paint is faded. The prebuy is to find things he did not know, i.e. hidden corrosion or that AD that was missed, or non-obvious things he did not disclose like the prior damage. Those are the things that will bring the price down, IMO.

 

[Henning]

If I think it's going to need it, then it's going to need it as far as I'm concerned. If I see something worn but not to the point of being unserviceable -- it's on the list. If the radios are serviceable but ancient, and I'm going to have to replace them... it's on the list. If the A&P doing the inspection at my direction tells me compression is good, but the cylinder walls are pitted or scuffed... it goes on the list. I may or may not share my list with the seller, depending on how things are going... but they are definitely things I will take into account when deciding the price at which I would buy the airplane (or car, or house, or whatever).

The price I will offer or agree to includes items I can see needing to fix or replace in the near future. If the seller doesn't want to meet my price, then we don't have a deal. What's so tough to understand about that?

Let me ask you a question, do you think the current owner is not aware of these issues and set his selling price accordingly? Maybe possible? You have to look at the value of the overall deal. If you are buying a nice 6000hr 182 with a mid time engine for $36k, how much deducting you want to do for old radios? If you came in to me with that attitude, you'd leave with your tail tucked and an education in not being an unprepared idiot. Unless he misrepresented it in the advertising, why do you think he should negotiate over installed advertised equipment? There are many ways to approach negotiation; the absolute worst is to insult your partner in this negotiation, and that's what dilettantes always bring as their game. If you don't know how to play the game correctly, hire a pro who does, you'll come out money ahead.

I'm asking $95k on my plane, it shows as represented. You want to pay $65k, what are you going to bust me down on?

 

[wabower]

Well, it's probably safe to say that those things should reduce the price (all other things being equal which they never are) but sellers have a way of ignoring or rationalizing them. Caveat emptor.

Exactly. The seller knows the radios are old or the paint is faded. The prebuy is to find things he did not know, i.e. hidden corrosion or that AD that was missed, or non-obvious things he did not disclose like the prior damage. Those are the things that will bring the price down, IMO.

 

[wabower]

I'm asking $95k on my plane, it shows as represented. You want to pay $65k, what are you going to bust me down on?

The fact that it's been for sale for a year and still on the market?

 

[DaleB]

Let me ask you a question, do you think the current owner is not aware of these issues and set his selling price accordingly? Maybe possible?

Maybe. Maybe not. But all of it goes into what I'm willing to pay for the airplane.

There are many ways to approach negotiation; the absolute worst is to insult your partner in this negotiation, and that's what dilettantes always bring as their game.

Yeah, the same can be said for a lot of things... like forum discussions. If you make an effort to not be a jackass and resort to name calling, people are much less likely to take offense.

The question was asked about the seller paying for items that are going to need to be fixed or replaced soon. My response was that, one way or another, yes -- it ultimately comes out of the seller's pocket. Either by the seller setting the price accordingly in the first place, or in a lower negotiated price when the buyer discovers the items in question. TANSTAAFL, baby.

Of course if the buyer doesn't bother to do his due diligence, then he gets stuck with it and the seller gets away with it.

 

[Henning]

Well, it's probably safe to say that those things should reduce the price (all other things being equal which they never are) but sellers have a way of ignoring or rationalizing them. Caveat emptor.

You should know pretty well by the advertised price if the owner had factored it all in. If you come to the conclusion they hadn't, don't bother to call, it won't be productive.

 

[wabower]

You don't know anything when you call. Sellers march to their own drummer and anything is possible. And buyers do too, but I don't have to deal with them.

You should know pretty well by the advertised price if the owner had factored it all in. If you come to the conclusion they hadn't, don't bother to call, it won't be productive.

 

[rpadula]

The fact that it's been for sale for a year and still on the market?

(I wuz gonna say "no SVT")

 

[DaleB]

I'm asking $95k on my plane, it shows as represented. You want to pay $65k, what are you going to bust me down on?

Sigh... an exercise in completely missing the point. I realize there may be a slight emotional component to this, as you have been trying to sell your plane and it's a tough market for sellers. You've probably gotten some insultingly low offers on it, which will **** anyone off. I know, I feel your pain. Let me see if I can't 'splain it a little plainer. And please don't take this personally or take it to mean I'm talking specifically about YOUR airplane, other than in the hypothetical sense. Even if I were buying today, and even if I had $95K to spend, I wouldn't be looking at a twin. Of any sort. Period.

If it looks nice but my A&P tells me, "Hey, look, there's a major problem with the port engine, and it's shelled"... then I'm going to either look elsewhere, or tell you I'll pay about half what you're asking. I'm not trying to screw you, just trying to avoid being screwed - whether by you or by a mutually unrecognized problem, it doesn't matter which. If we assume your asking price is reasonable for that airplane in the condition you describe, and we find that it's really NOT in the condition you describe, then it's worth less... and guess who eats the difference? Not I. So, in that respect, you - the seller - pay for the new engine by getting less for the airplane.

If I want a 310 and am only willing to pay $65K for one, I'm not going to even bother calling or looking at yours. Your asking price is a whole lot more than I'm willing to pay. Either it's more airplane than I want, OR your asking price is too high. Whichever it is just doesn't matter. If we're $30K apart I'm not going to try to negotiate that away, nobody's going to be happy that way.

 

[Jim Logajan]

been thinking about this, I'm not sure there can be a standard pre buy check list.

Every buyer has a different expectation, every airplane is different...

On searching the net for "prepurchase inspection" rather than "pre buy" I found a "Prepurchase Inspection Checklist" detailed in this article:

http://www.avweb.com/news/usedacft/182803-1.html

Anything you would add or change about that checklist?

Also, I recall seeing a mention of prepurchase checklist in the FAA document "Plane Sense" though rather brief by comparison. Still, I would think that would be a good free intro document that prospective buyers should be directed to review.

 

[wabower]

I know the author quite well and work with him at AAA. He's a good guy with many years experience in airplane stuff. After reading his list, I don't see anything about STC's and 337's and all of the associated paperwork. These things scare me worse than some of the mechanical stuff, both as to complexity of resolving the issues as well as the associated costs.

On searching the net for "prepurchase inspection" rather than "pre buy" I found a "Prepurchase Inspection Checklist" detailed in this article:

http://www.avweb.com/news/usedacft/182803-1.html

Anything you would add or change about that checklist?

Also, I recall seeing a mention of prepurchase checklist in the FAA document "Plane Sense" though rather brief by comparison. Still, I would think that would be a good free intro document that prospective buyers should be directed to review.

 

[Skylane81E]

Not bad. But as noted falls short in places, 337s for one. Compliance with the TCDS, I've seen wrong props, incorrect engine changes and the like.

Scope everything, if you can get your scope in there look. If I have reason to suspect engine corrosion issues I will be inspecting cylinder bores, and after this last go around pulling a mag might be on the list of recommendations. It's easy enough and lets you have a look. Same with a rock box cover or two, a few min and a gasket. No need if flown frequently, but there an extra eye given to wear items.

Know the plane, example: check Cessna retracts pivot castings for cracks closely. Check the torque. Even having a peek at applicable SBs can be enlightening as they can point to breed specific issues, such as the trunnion fittings on Senecas. You don't have to do them, but some times one will jump out as a good idea to have a peek at.

My eye on a pre buy is more towards expense than legality, if it's wrong I'll tell you, but I'm not as worried about the unlabeled switch or the faded compass card. I want to know if those $10,000 main struts on the "gem" of a duchess you brought to me are ok.