Pre buy pre buy pre buy!!

A great example of enlightened thinking that should be the model for all mechanics. Your professional and documented opinion of aircraft condition is very valuable and much appreciated. Those in your profession who try to attach God-like powers to the process along with the smoke-blowing that goes with it should change their ways and follow your example.



Skylane81E said:
One of the great things about giving out stickies!

I can give you the entry and and you can decide if you want it or not.

Granted all I typically say is changed filter and inspected element or something similar. What I did goes on the entery, what i find goes into my report.
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wabower said:
A great example of enlightened thinking that should be the model for all mechanics. Your professional and documented opinion of aircraft condition is very valuable and much appreciated. Those in your profession who try to attach God-like powers to the process along with the smoke-blowing that goes with it should change their ways and follow your example.
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Log books are supposed to have a description of the work performed, they don't need (usually) reasons.

I have logged a prop strike in, and recently a log ended up noting the hard landing, but only because I said what i did, (Inspected aircraft IAW the hard/overweight landing inspection MM chapter...) there I did log the findings, (none related to the landing):wink2:
 
Skylane81E said:
Log books are supposed to have a description of the work performed, they don't need (usually) reasons.

I have logged a prop strike in, and recently a log ended up noting the hard landing, but only because I said what i did, (Inspected aircraft IAW the hard/overweight landing inspection MM chapter...) there I did log the findings, (none related to the landing):wink2:
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Don't we wish that really happened. Often the entries are very vague to work performed and refer one to a work order number. When those work orders are missing, I'm verifying the integrity and fitness of the entire vague entry area visually; that can get into time and expense. If there's a bunch of that model on the market, as soon as I see that situation I recommend a 'file this one for later' to the buyer. If I find that, I'm likely to find more things wrong that will cause a walk as well.
 
Most entries that reference work orders are prepared by CRS facilities. They aren't required to maintain work orders for inordinately long periods of time, but some do so. A polite inquiry will sometimes yield the results you want.

Henning said:
Don't we wish that really happened. Often the entries are very vague to work performed and refer one to a work order number. When those work orders are missing, I'm verifying the integrity and fitness of the entire vague entry area visually; that can get into time and expense. If there's a bunch of that model on the market, as soon as I see that situation I recommend a 'file this one for later' to the buyer. If I find that, I'm likely to find more things wrong that will cause a walk as well.
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wabower said:
Most entries that reference work orders are prepared by CRS facilities. They aren't required to maintain work orders for inordinately long periods of time, but some do so. A polite inquiry will sometimes yield the results you want.
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We keep them for two years and have been told by he FAA that they don't want to ever see a WO older than that in our files. We shred on the first of each month.

But I also don't reference to the WO for what work was done:wink2:
 
wabower said:
Most entries that reference work orders are prepared by CRS facilities. They aren't required to maintain work orders for inordinately long periods of time, but some do so. A polite inquiry will sometimes yield the results you want.
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Same as the point as was brought up earlier, record keeping. If the referenced W/O is in the records for me to read, I have no reservation. When records of major events are not in 'offered discovery', foregoing having any better information, I have to be suspect. That's what I see sloppy record keeping to indicate. The opposite shows me a very meticulous owner; that's the key thing I'm looking for in a plane I'm buying. It tells me more about the condition of the aircraft than any single other factor. When I see detailed materials records and receipts and I know the person executing the work is a pedantic Master Craftsman metal smith who has made a fortune doing it, I know what I'm looking at.
 
How does one have the aircraft inspected and not comply with this?

FAR 43.5
No person may approve for return to service any aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance, that has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless—

(a) The maintenance record entry required by §43.9 or §43.11, as appropriate, has been made;

Plus this,

FAR 43.9

(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed.

(2) The date of completion of the work performed.

(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.

You must know that inspections are maintenance, So how do you get around the FARs when you hire a mechanic or any facility to inspect the aircraft.

How do you as a owner get around the responsibility to get that entry? 91.405 Maintenance required.

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Each owner or operator of an aircraft—

(a) Shall have that aircraft inspected as prescribed in subpart E of this part and shall between required inspections, except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, have discrepancies repaired as prescribed in part 43 of this chapter;

(b) Shall ensure that maintenance personnel make appropriate entries in the aircraft maintenance records indicating the aircraft has been approved for return to service;

The FARs don't give you much room to ignore the responsibility to have the entries made nor do they allow maintenance to be accomplished with out a return to service. So if you as an owner choose to fly your aircraft after maintenance with out that entry you are in violation.

Your aircraft, your ticket.
 
Tom-D said:
How does one have the aircraft inspected and not comply with this?

FAR 43.5
No person may approve for return to service any aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance, that has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless—

...

The FARs don't give you much room to ignore the responsibility to have the entries made nor do they allow maintenance to be accomplished with out a return to service. So if you as an owner choose to fly your aircraft after maintenance with out that entry you are in violation.

Your aircraft, your ticket.
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How 'bout because an inspection, in and of itself, is not "maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration". As someone that interprets CFR's for a living I am pretty comfortable with that. I will look up the definition in the CFR of "maintenance" and see if that changes my opinion.
 
alfadog said:
How 'bout because an inspection, in and of itself, is not "maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration". As someone that interprets CFR's for a living I am pretty comfortable with that. I will look up the definition in the CFR of "maintenance" and see if that changes my opinion.
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check CFR 1.1
"" Maintenance means inspection, overhaul, repair, preservation, and the replacement of parts, but excludes preventive maintenance. ""
 
I would suggest that you sellers be careful of what you allow the buyer to do, and what they ask their mechanic to do as a pre-buy inspection, because they could take that aircraft apart and refuse to sign it off with out a huge chunk of your money being spent to return it to service.
They could simply make a statement that renders your aircraft worthless.
 
Tom-D said:
check CFR 1.1
"" Maintenance means inspection, overhaul, repair, preservation, and the replacement of parts, but excludes preventive maintenance. ""
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Yes, I see that and it does bear on the question. Rule 43.9 deals with logbook entries for maintenance and specifically excludes inspections, referring you to 43.11. Rule 43.11 deals with logbook entries only for required inspections such as annual, 100-hour, etc.

Based on that, and without looking at 1.1, I would interpret that a prebuy inspection need not be logged. However, 1.1 adds a bit of ambiguity, very common with regs. I would not be surprised if there is a ruling from the FAA OGC that relates to this. Barring a clarification from OGC, logging the prebuy is a good CYA move .
 
alfadog said:
Yes, I see that and it does bear on the question. Rule 43.9 deals with logbook entries for maintenance and specifically excludes inspections, referring you to 43.11. Rule 43.11 deals with logbook entries only for required inspections such as annual, 100-hour, etc.

Based on that, and without looking at 1.1, I would interpret that a prebuy inspection need not be logged. However, 1.1 adds a bit of ambiguity, very common with regs. I would not be surprised if there is a ruling from the FAA OGC that relates to this. Barring a clarification from OGC, logging the prebuy is a good CYA move .
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Inspections are maintenance, although all maintenance is not inspection, thus we have two rules for the return to service.
In this case the return to service is for the maintenance not the inspection because we have no inspection occurring due to the requirements of CFR 91.

This is why can have any knowledgable person do the Pre-buy, they do it under the pretense of owner maintenance removing the panels and looking. but owner maintenance is a bad term, it is "preventive maintenance" as described under 43-A (c) 1-32. and that does require a return to service entry.

But when you use a facility like a repair station they won't work with out a work order, that is maintenance.
 
BTW, here is something from the FAA on pre-buy:

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/media/faa-h-8083-19A.pdf

Pre-Purchase Inspection​

Before buying an aircraft, you should have a mechanic you trust give the aircraft a thorough inspection and provide you with a written report of its condition. While a pre-purchase inspection need not be an annual inspection, it should include at least a differential compression check on each cylinder of the engine and any other inspections necessary to determine the condition of the aircraft. In addition to a mechanical inspection, the aircraft logbooks and other records should be carefully reviewed for such things as FAA Form 337, Report of Major Repair or Alteration, AD compliance, the status of service bulletins and letters, and aircraft/component serial numbers.​
 
alfadog said:
BTW, here is something from the FAA on pre-buy:

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/media/faa-h-8083-19A.pdf

Pre-Purchase Inspection​

Before buying an aircraft, you should have a mechanic you trust give the aircraft a thorough inspection and provide you with a written report of its condition. While a pre-purchase inspection need not be an annual inspection, it should include at least a differential compression check on each cylinder of the engine and any other inspections necessary to determine the condition of the aircraft. In addition to a mechanical inspection, the aircraft logbooks and other records should be carefully reviewed for such things as FAA Form 337, Report of Major Repair or Alteration, AD compliance, the status of service bulletins and letters, and aircraft/component serial numbers.​
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I have no problem with that, but is that all you as a buyer want to know?

do you see any thing there that says how well the aircraft flys?

also, removal of the cowl, and spark plugs are maintenance, and need a return to service, no matter who does the action. Now you have the cowl off, the plugs out, and find the engine is hosed beyond airworthy standards, it's easy for the buyer to throw up their hands and leave the aircraft setting there for the seller to deal with, in a place and in the hands of some one they have no relation with.
 
And in that case I do just what the OWNER asks of me.

That owner will get an entry stating what was done, then they can come get it for all I care. I'll put a copy of anything scary in the file with the work order, as I don't want any confusion that I did not state the plane was airworthy, just that I opened it up and had a look then put it back together.

If its really bad and I get the impression it isn't going to get fixed don't be surprised if I have a chat with my PMI.
 
Tom-D said:
check CFR 1.1
"" Maintenance means inspection, overhaul, repair, preservation, and the replacement of parts, but excludes preventive maintenance. ""
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Would you log a pre-flight? Silly question, I know, but someone could take it to that extreme and judging by the personalities on this board...
 
Jaybird180 said:
Would you log a pre-flight? Silly question, I know, but someone could take it to that extreme and judging by the personalities on this board...
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I think an A&P be would held to a different standard. And Tom-D is referencing things that are considered "maintenance", i.e. removing a screwed-in cowl, spark plugs, etc. Not a preflight.

Now, in fairness and full disclosure, I called the ADLog folks again and this time got someone that could give me a quote.

Actually, the buy-in on the product for a single is very reasonable, $150 + $18 s/h. Then they want another $34 per year to keep you updated. Again, not unreasonable.

Obviously good for them on older aircraft like mine that might see one AD per year, if that, but worth it for someone that does not want to "get his hands dirty" figuring it out for themselves.

For myself, I dig into things like that and have a better understanding of the AD's applicable to my airplane than my first mechanic. My present mechanic (recommended by the first) is a bit of a Piper expert so I will not make that claim :D

That said, at that price, I would still consider it just to make sure I do not miss anything. Seems like cheap insurance.

And finally, does not change my dislike of "contact us for a quote" - too much experience.
 
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alfadog said:
I think an A&P be would held to a different standard. And Tom-D is referencing things that are considered "maintenance", i.e. removing a screwed-in cowl, spark plugs, etc. Not a preflight.

Now, in fairness and full disclosure, I called the ADLog folks again and this time got someone that could give me a quote.

Actually, the buy-in on the product for a single is very reasonable, $150 + $18 s/h. Then they want another $34 per year to keep you updated. Again, not unreasonable.

Obviously good for them on older aircraft like mine that might see one AD per year, if that, but worth it for someone that does not want to "get his hands dirty" figuring it out for themselves.

For myself, I dig into things like that and have a better understanding of the AD's applicable to my airplane than my first mechanic. My present mechanic (recommended by the first) is a bit of a Piper expert so I will not make that claim :D

That said, at that price, I would still consider it just to make sure I do not miss anything. Seems like cheap insurance.

And finally, does not change my dislike of "contact us for a quote" - too much experience.
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The advantage of ADlog.

you get it all covered 1 time then keep it up to date by making an entry in the booklet that says no new ADs this period.

So it's a one time buy.
when you receive a new AD from the FAA you simply place it in the ADlog booklet and sign it off.
Then its always there for any one to see read or what ever.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Would you log a pre-flight? Silly question, I know, but someone could take it to that extreme and judging by the personalities on this board...
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If you did maintenance during that pre-flight, I would advise making an entry to that effect.

the term "pre-flight" is only a method of determining compliance with CFR 91.7, and that is not a maintenance function.
 
Skylane81E said:
There are some airframes, but they still have engines and accessories.
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That brings up a very good point.

How can you do an accurate AD compliance with out an accurate inventory? And how can you get an accurate inventory with out doing maintenance?
 
Tom-D said:
How does one have the aircraft inspected and not comply with this?

FAR 43.5
No person may approve for return to service any aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance, that has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless—
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How about, "Performed acquisition of data pursuant to contract for XXX party." Why does that need an entry though? Are we doing a credit check?
 
Tom-D said:
That brings up a very good point.

How can you do an accurate AD compliance with out an accurate inventory? And how can you get an accurate inventory with out doing maintenance?
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You gotta know what's on there.

Our diamond has no applicable ADs on the engine, airframe or prop.

Does have a 2000hr recurring AD on the ignition switch though.
 
Yada yada yada. How many times are you going to stir this pot?

Tom-D said:
How does one have the aircraft inspected and not comply with this?

FAR 43.5
No person may approve for return to service any aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance, that has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless—

(a) The maintenance record entry required by §43.9 or §43.11, as appropriate, has been made;

Plus this,

FAR 43.9

(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed.

(2) The date of completion of the work performed.

(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.

You must know that inspections are maintenance, So how do you get around the FARs when you hire a mechanic or any facility to inspect the aircraft.

How do you as a owner get around the responsibility to get that entry? 91.405 Maintenance required.

top
Each owner or operator of an aircraft—

(a) Shall have that aircraft inspected as prescribed in subpart E of this part and shall between required inspections, except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, have discrepancies repaired as prescribed in part 43 of this chapter;

(b) Shall ensure that maintenance personnel make appropriate entries in the aircraft maintenance records indicating the aircraft has been approved for return to service;

The FARs don't give you much room to ignore the responsibility to have the entries made nor do they allow maintenance to be accomplished with out a return to service. So if you as an owner choose to fly your aircraft after maintenance with out that entry you are in violation.

Your aircraft, your ticket.
Click to expand...
 
Tom-D said:
That brings up a very good point.

How can you do an accurate AD compliance with out an accurate inventory? And how can you get an accurate inventory with out doing maintenance?
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I'm not fully understandiing how you are equating gathering data with maint? I guess you could enter 'washed and thoroughly cleaned and serviced... then list what you physically did. You deliver that to the person who paid you on a sticky note would be satisfactory, no?
 
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Henning said:
I'm not fully understandiing how you are equating gathering data with maint? I guess you could enter 'washed and thoroughly cleaned and serviced... then list what you physically did. You deliver that to the person who paid you on a sticky note would be satisfactory, no?
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How can you "gather Data" with out doing maintenance?

How can you comply with the requirements of an annual, with out doing maintenance?

Are you going to remove panels? cowling? seats? filters? That's all maintenance. and requires a return to service entry in the maintenance records.

The Owner is responsible to see these entries are made.
 
Tom-D said:
How can you "gather Data" with out doing maintenance?

How can you comply with the requirements of an annual, with out doing maintenance?

Are you going to remove panels? cowling? seats? filters? That's all maintenance. and requires a return to service entry in the maintenance records.

The Owner is responsible to see these entries are made.
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So hand the owner whatever sticker you decide to write as well and keep your record of it as well. You are not required to put the sticker in the log.
 
Henning said:
So hand the owner whatever sticker you decide to write as well and keep your record of it as well. You are not required to put the sticker in the log.
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It's not how I do the entry, the point was when you have the aircraft inspected, it requires a entry, many here think it can be thrown away if they don't buy.

that is not legal.
 
Tom-D said:
The advantage of ADlog.

you get it all covered 1 time then keep it up to date by making an entry in the booklet that says no new ADs this period.

So it's a one time buy.
when you receive a new AD from the FAA you simply place it in the ADlog booklet and sign it off.
Then its always there for any one to see read or what ever.
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What guarantees are there that their information is current and complete? Or any software package for that matter? If I'm the buyer and I depend upon their software to tell me ALL information I need to make a well informed choice, I expect to have a recourse if something goes awry.
 
Jaybird180 said:
What guarantees are there that their information is current and complete? Or any software package for that matter? If I'm the buyer and I depend upon their software to tell me ALL information I need to make a well informed choice, I expect to have a recourse if something goes awry.
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I have yet to hear anyone say ADlog missed an AD.
 
Tom-D said:
It's not how I do the entry, the point was when you have the aircraft inspected, it requires a entry, many here think it can be thrown away if they don't buy.

that is not legal.
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That's not your worry. BTW, I have S/N 39160, can you find any ADs on it?
 
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Tom-D said:
It's not how I do the entry, the point was when you have the aircraft inspected, it requires a entry, many here think it can be thrown away if they don't buy.

that is not legal.
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But if an aircraft is evaluated then it does not require an entry. That's why it's a pre-buy evaluation and not a pre-buy inspection
 
Tom-D said:
It's not how I do the entry, the point was when you have the aircraft inspected, it requires a entry, many here think it can be thrown away if they don't buy.

that is not legal
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I say again--that is not legal
Is he dead yet?

Dunno. Hit him again.



Now hear this--that is not legal
Did I kill him this time?

Not sure. I think he's still moving. Whack him one more time.



Don't you understand? I said that that is not legal, DAMMIT!
Surely he's dead by now, I've hit him 50 times.

You never know, they are hard to kill. Maybe just a few more.



NOT LEGAL! NOT LEGAL! NOT LEGAL!
That should do it once and for all.



Don't know what to tell you. All those guys who disagree with you say they're not going to change anything. What should we do now?
 
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