PPL solo X-country... am I allowed to plan my own route?

Matthew said:
You are going to find out that it's all about maintaining altitudes, headings, hitting your checkpoints on time, recalculating times, fuel management, verifying fuel burn when you add gas, grabbing a bite to eat, checking weather, monitoring engine instruments, situational awareness, flight following, and doing this all at airports you have probably never seen.
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Geez Matthew... all that stuff you mentioned is half the fun of flying. I enjoy the challenge of planning and monitoring all that stuff. Keeps me from getting bored. ;)
 
mtuomi said:
Hey, azblackguy. Since your legal guy is the best in the country, why don't you post a few cases where HE has been successful? You see, most of us have our planes and licenses, we have nothing to prove. We can already fly. But your story stinks like a 5 month old Big Mac.
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Yea, that's all I need is a bunch of internet dumbasses calling him up and bothering him about whether they think I'm legal to use a plane for business purposes or not. Get real dude. :rolleyes:
 
azblackbird said:
Geez Matthew... all that stuff you mentioned is half the fun of flying. I enjoy the challenge of planning and monitoring all that stuff. Keeps me from getting bored. ;)
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You won't be bored, but you should be saturated. Trying to get too big a chunk bitten off at one time makes you do stupid things.
 
Matthew said:
Dunno. Must be a pretty big deal, though, for Roy to remember them before he died.
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we call pipe "O-BEAMS" but ti am guessing he was talking about something much more grand than welding pipe!
 
azblackbird said:
As a CFI if you can't develop a training syllabus based on the different scenarios I propose, then I probably wouldn't be hiring you. No hard feelings. :)
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How about getting out there and actually starting some lessons? How long has this looking for an instructor and planning to take some lessons been going on?

EDIT - I see, about 2 weeks on POA. Anyway, lots of good schools/instructors here in AZ. (Let me know if you want the name of a few good ones at KCHD). Get out there and fly and have some fun!
 
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azblackbird said:
What's funny is I've probably ridden (avid motorcycle/adventure tourer) most every road and many of the trails west of the MS at least once or twice in the past 25 years, so I thought I'd mix it up a bit in an airplane by doing a cool X-country and flying over/following some of my most favorite and scenic rides. I've done many 1000-3000 mile loops and just thought it would be kinda of cool to condense one of my favorite loops into a couple days of flying. No biggie though... there's a couple real nice sunrise to sunset loops here in AZ that I could knock out in a few hours of flying that would cover pretty much all extremes.
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while my long CC was longer than most, and involved a flight across the cascade range, I'll say that I was pretty tired after 4 hours of flying. the altitude tired me out and the flight happened at the end of a nervous day of preparing/briefing/thinking about the flight.

i revised some personal limits after that flight to include using oxygen if i'm sustained over 12,000 feet for more than an hour or so and to set a soft limit of 4 hours. I may extend them later, but I'll tell you that was plenty for me, and it was on a beautiful day with a lot of it in sparse area where my workload was pretty low. my short CC were much more intense, as it was all in busy airspace with lots of special airspace, traffic, etc to manage/avoid.

if your instructor agrees, I think perhaps a longer solo CC can be valuable, but I do think you're talking about a full trip. I think the benefit would be, late in your primary training, to PLAN that trip, and do a ground review with you CFI, with the goal not to go fly it, but to see what you might have overlooked, what special airspace would you have mistakenly blown through, what TFR did you miss? Does your fuel stop have fuel, is it NOTAMed to be closed the time you at ether, if the pump doesn't work, how close is the next place with fuel? does the alternate have stuff you need to know? (left hand traffic pattern, weird tower hours, diagonal runways, terrain in the maneuvering path, a fly in that day that will mak eit a metal cloud of death for a student pilot? etc). I am a fan of planning long trips, like you want to take post PPL, but you don't necessarily want to fly them all, you want to plan them, and then get them critiqued to see what you might need to add to your planning

good luck on your training adventure, I really do hope you go through with training, but be willing to learn something on every flight, even after you have your PPL
 
Just an anecdote of a real-life curveball.

Land at an airport with confirmed fuel available, after an almost max range flight.
SS machine says "unable to read card" to all of the 5 cards I fly with.
Dip the tanks, there is the amount I calculated, fly to the next one with FS fuel, and top up.
I planned for this. I also know my cruise fuel consumption within .1gph. Always have a plan a, b and c.
A student pilot (not even that in this case) simply does not know what to look for and what your fuel gauges and fuel dipstick look like when you are running low.
Or what about that one trip when I had to make 2 emergency landings within 5 hours because of mechanical issues? And had to manage the maintenance etc to get the plane back in the air.

A 1500 mile trip can easily throw you curveballs like that. Student pilot has other things to worry about. Just get on with the program and extend your wings, which you'll never have, later.
 
MIFlyer said:
if your instructor agrees, I think perhaps a longer solo CC can be valuable, but I do think you're talking about a full trip.
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That's the idea. Basically just time building for both ppl and instrument. I'm not really a newbie student per se. I've got time in complex aircraft in all flight phases and planning. This was all pre-GPS days where you actually had to navigate and aviate. No magenta lines. Course most planes I had time in had an AP so that lessened the load quite a bit. I think the statute of limitations for whatever I may have done in the past has long expired. Just going to do it the legal way now. :cool:
 
azblackbird said:
That's the idea. Basically just time building for both ppl and instrument. I'm not really a newbie student per se. I've got time in complex aircraft in all flight phases and planning. This was all pre-GPS days where you actually had to navigate and aviate. No magenta lines. Course most planes I had time in had an AP so that lessened the load quite a bit. I think the statute of limitations for whatever I may have done in the past has long expired. Just going to do it the legal way now. :cool:
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You have no idea what bad habits, ideas, or technique you may have picked up with this kind of impromptu "training." In some cases unlearning can increase your real training time.
 
Mason said:
You have no idea what bad habits, ideas, or technique you may have picked up with this kind of impromptu "training." In some cases unlearning can increase your real training time.
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Mason... I don't know how many hours you have, but I can almost guarantee you this. If you were to go out tomorrow and fly with 5 different instructors (wether low time or high time), I'll bet there would be a few things here and there that each one could call you on for doing something in a different way than they themselves were trained to do. I won't know what my bad habits or techniques (if any) are until I start my training. Even then, I probably still wouldn't know until I fly with a few different instructors and could establish a baseline (so-to-speak) of what would be considered a bad habit or a good habit.

I will tell you this... the gentleman I flew with at the time was a least a 2000 hr. pilot and he took his flying very seriously! Every flight was it's own mission. That I did learn. Doesn't matter if you stop 30 minutes for fuel or a potty break. You still do a good pre-flight, and get ATIS, WX, PIREPS and NOTAMS before you hit the skies again.
 
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azblackbird said:
Even then, I probably still wouldn't know until I fly with a few different instructors and could establish a baseline (so-to-speak) of what would be considered a bad habit or a good habit.
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Be sure to let us know when you actually do. Fly with an instructor, that is.

Wait, I thought you said you already did, with one of the better instructors I've known for, huh... almost three decades. Guy has a few national level trophies on the wall in aerobatics, too.

Think you're going to figure out which of his advice was good and which was bad to establish your "baseline" before you've even earned a ticket? I think if you went and visited him again with that attitude, you'd fly to his standard or get out of his plane and he sure wouldn't be signing your logbook for any privileges.

Hard to keep all the imaginary stories straight, isn't it? But like I said, you're just trolling anyway. It's just fun to catch you in your absurdity. You can't even troll well.

I suggest taking notes on the stories. It'll help keep the errors from creeping in. Works for a lot of fiction authors, I hear.

C'mon man. High quality BS if you're gonna spout BS. Strive for excellence.
 
azblackbird said:
Are you talking about Leonard Nelson? I don't ever remember him having a wall full of trophies or being a national aerobatic champion. He could have been, but I mostly remember him talking about his old war stories and flying for the airlines. Tell him Gary says Hi. He might remember me. I would imagine he's getting up there in age by now. He was old when I flew with him. ;)
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Oh that's hilarious. That gave away something you don't even realize you gave away.

What a fraud. Google harder.
 
azblackbird said:
Enlighten me...
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No thanks. I have enough info to know you're not what you claim to be, or whom you've claimed to fly with.

No need to tell you to stock you up for the next group of suckers who will buy it, if I correct your error and incorporate it into your fantasy world.

Just stick with what you've not. It's a great fake story.
 
Not sure why I'm bothering but...

@azblackbird - you state you PLAN to use your plane for business. If it is your plan, it is not incidental. How's that for some reading comprehension?

Next - since you already are talking PPL and IR, just get the damn commercial too. It doesn't take much longer, you'll be more trained and legal (although you argue that point) and your insurance company will love you for it. Just consider it a cost of doing business and get on with your 300,000 mile cross countries.
 
Ravioli said:
Not sure why I'm bothering but...

@azblackbird - you state you PLAN to use your plane for business. If it is your plan, it is not incidental. How's that for some reading comprehension?

Next - since you already are talking PPL and IR, just get the damn commercial too. It doesn't take much longer, you'll be more trained and legal (although you argue that point) and your insurance company will love you for it. Just consider it a cost of doing business and get on with your 300,000 mile cross countries.
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@Ravioli I'll try to simplify this for you as much as I can...

Later this morning, I plan to get into my P/U and go visit a client that wants to start running an ad in the local AAA magazine. I'll be bringing my laptop with various mock-ups of what their ad will look like. More than likely I will receive a deposit of $800 with the go-ahead to run the ad.

Ask yourself this... is the client paying me $800 to drive my P/U (which I also expense off my taxes) to deliver the mock-ups to him, or am I getting paid for doing the actual creative work in designing and running the ad for them?

The answer is... the client is paying me for my creative services. My P/U is incidental to my business in traveling to go see the client. Thus I don't need a commercial drivers license, or an FMC or DOT authorization just to drive over with my laptop and deliver them the mock-ups.

Regarding getting a CPL... maybe eventually down the road, but it is not something that I'm aspiring to at the moment.

Just an FYI... let's say I was to get a CPL and receive compensation for making deliveries, hauling cargo, hauling passengers, etc. I would still be illegal under part 135 rules for not having a properly equipped/certified aircraft to conduct such operations.

Any questions...
 
azblackbird said:
@RavioliJust an FYI... let's say I was to get a CPL and receive compensation for making deliveries, hauling cargo, hauling passengers, etc. I would still be illegal under part 135 rules for not having a properly equipped/certified aircraft to conduct such operations.

Any questions...
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Not necessarily. You can haul for hire under Part 91; what you're proposing would fall under Part 91 not Part 135...
 
labbadabba said:
Not necessarily. You can haul for hire under Part 91; what you're proposing would fall under Part 91 not Part 135...
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According to a few here, apparently I'd be hauling cargo and making deliveries and being compensated for doing so. I believe that falls under part 135.
 
azblackbird said:
@Ravioli I'll try to simplify this for you as much as I can...



Any questions...
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Did you plan to buy a pickup for said purpose and classify it as a business expense? If so, it is not incidental to the business.

Did your mythical lawyers and accountants help you understand personal use of business aircraft or are you only interested in justifying illegal use of personal aircraft?

Again.... sorry I bothered.
 
azblackbird said:
According to a few here, apparently I'd be hauling cargo and making deliveries and being compensated for doing so. I believe that falls under part 135.
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Unless your business was specifically freight or pax for hire, no, I don't believe Part 135 would apply. If you're carrying material specific to your business and your company just happens to fly to get where it needs to go, then it would be Part 91 but still commercial if you're seeking remuneration.
 
azblackbird said:
Geez... just because I want to stretch my legs and fly a X-country that's a little more than 50 miles all of a sudden I have a hazardous attitude. :)
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My first solo flight was last month. It was about 15 miles. I was sweating bullets from the time I saw the heavy land right before my take off to the time I put the airplane back in the hangar. Good luck with a 1,000 mile first solo. If it happens it will be interesting to say the least.
 
Ravioli said:
Did you plan to buy a pickup for said purpose and classify it as a business expense? If so, it is not incidental to the business.
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@Ravioli Yes my P/U is a transportation tool and is expensed as such, just as are my servers, computers, cameras, and other misc. equipment that are required tools for me to make a living. An airplane would be a required transportation tool in my start-up to reach my ad/internet customers in the underserved areas of AZ. Would I be making my living and being compensated for flying an airplane? No! It's just another tool for my business.

I'm done arguing the fact! I guess I'll just be an FAA outlaw. :lol:
 
azblackbird said:
@Ravioli Yes my P/U is a transportation tool and is expensed as such, just as are my servers, computers, cameras, and other misc. equipment that are required tools for me to make a living. An airplane would be a required transportation tool in my start-up to reach my ad/internet customers in the underserved areas of AZ. Would I be making my living and being compensated for flying an airplane? No! It's just another tool for my business.
I'm done arguing the fact! I guess I'll just be an FAA outlaw. :lol:
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This. If your flying is incidental to your business you don't need a commercial rating. As long as you fly in order to get to a place where you transact your business (and back), and your compensation is not for the flying itself (though your fuel, oil and other related expenses may be reimbursed for business flights) then you are good, both FAA and IRS wise.
IFR rating is highly recommended, if not essential, for business flying, though AZ may be less critical.
 
RotorDude said:
This. If your flying is incidental to your business you don't need a commercial rating. As long as you fly in order to get to a place where you transact your business (and back), and your compensation is not for the flying itself (though your fuel, oil and other related expenses may be reimbursed for business flights) then you are good, both FAA and IRS wise.
IFR rating is highly recommended, if not essential, for business flying, though AZ may be less critical.
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@RotorDude there would be no reimbursement or compensation. It's all straight line transportation and equipment (if I purchase a plane) expenses.

Yes, I plan on getting my IFR. Even here in AZ (although we're VFR the majority of the year) it can still come in handy for iffy weather. As I expand to CO, UT, CA, and NM... IFR is a no-brainer. ;)
 
azblackbird said:
@RotorDude there would be no reimbursement or compensation. It's all straight line transportation and equipment (if I purchase a plane) expenses.

Yes, I plan on getting my IFR. Even here in AZ (although we're VFR the majority of the year) it can still come in handy for iffy weather. As I expand to CO, UT, CA, and NM... IFR is a no-brainer. ;)
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If you are the business owner and the company pays the fuel/oil etc., that's still "compensation" from the FAA and IRS perspective, but in this case both would approve it, IMO. In fact, the company may own the aircraft and let you fly it, with the same results.
The important point is that the flights must remain incidental to the business, i.e. to get you from A to B where you'll transact the business.
 
RotorDude said:
If you are the business owner and the company pays the fuel/oil etc., that's still "compensation" from the FAA and IRS perspective, but in this case both would approve it, IMO. In fact, the company may own the aircraft and let you fly it, with the same results.
The important point is that the flights must remain incidental to the business, i.e. to get you from A to B where you'll transact the business.
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@RotorDude maybe you do your taxes differently than I do. But all my fuel, oil, tires, parts, etc. go in the expense column, and not the income or "compensation" column. :D
 
scumbag-steve-faa-rules-dont-apply-to-aviation-gangsters.jpg
 
RotorDude said:
If you are the business owner and the company pays the fuel/oil etc., that's still "compensation" from the FAA and IRS perspective,
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Not totally correct. I own my business and use my plane for business transport just as @azblackbird is proposing.

You can indeed be fully reimbursed for all the direct flight expenses from the company as just a private pilot as long as the flying is incidental to the business and you are the sole occupant of the plane. As soon as you add another body in the plane...employee...family...anyone, the "pay no less than the pro rata share" crap kicks in and you can no longer be fully reimbursed, but you can be reimbursed still for just your portion.

Now that is me personally owning the plane and getting reimbursed from the company...if the company (company being a different legal entity than the individual) owns the plane...different story, then it can be considered compensation. It is a fine line but there are loopholes to be able to fly for business and not have a CPL but who owns the plan matters.

IRS is only gonna care if you are trying to write off a plane for business and using it recreationally. They will not care who paid for the gas per FAA regs, only if that it can be tied to a direct business expense.

While I agree with the academics that say if you are delivering a product that certainly crosses into CPL territory...but if you have a briefcase of supplies with you, who the heck is gonna care? Just as if dad swipes his card at the gas pump for taking him flying to lunch, yeah...technically it is a violation but certainly not the intent of the rules. Find me a actual bust in either one of those scenarios.
 
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labbadabba said:
Unless your business was specifically freight or pax for hire, no, I don't believe Part 135 would apply. If you're carrying material specific to your business and your company just happens to fly to get where it needs to go, then it would be Part 91 but still commercial if you're seeking remuneration.
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And in the eyes of the FAA, remuneration can include customer good will.
 
Lindberg said:
Do you do your own accounting?
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My business is totally automated and is a very simple business. I don't have employees (all contract), I don't have an office building, fleet of vehicles, etc. to complicate things. I do my all own accounting/taxes and have my CPA buddy just give them the once over. It's not rocket science!

Shawn said:
IRS is only gonna care if you are trying to write off a plane for business and using it recreationally.
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Just an FYI @Shawn... a good rule of thumb if you're going to use your airplane for business/recreation and expense it as such, you should at least use it 75% of the time for business. The other 25% for recreation you can't deduct. It gets real iffy if your 50/50. Then you could easily end up as audit bait.
 
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