PPL solo X-country... am I allowed to plan my own route?

The CFI in Sidney was also a crop duster by trade. He had a nice Citabria which I took a couple hours of aerobatic training in at the suggestion of my friend in Kimball.

Huh. Funny thing is, that CFI is still in Sydney, and CFIs talk. Will be interesting to ask him if he remembers you and get a hint on whether he thinks you'll ever make it.

There just aren't that many CFIs around here. We all eventually meet each other. And we chat. Should be an entertaining conversation with Ed the next time I'm up there.

To me, you look like you're all over the map and can't focus on a goal and finish it.

Plus, 80s as the heyday of the "oil field" up there? Nope. I worked for the oil biz back then, and the 80s weren't all that kind to the area for various reasons.

The more you talk, the more stuff comes out that doesn't jive.

I just realized I remember this guy from another board from years ago... Seems he was sort of a troll there too.

Thanks for the warning. Seems pretty obvious now.

As far as planning a 1500 mile student XC? Totally silly. Let's get real here, you're supposed to be practicing things, and plowing along, in a straight line, for 500 miles, isn't going to get the job done.

Shorter XCs are not just done for the reasons mentioned, changing weather, aircraft being trapped by a maintenance issue 1000 miles away, yadda yadda... they're also done shorter to keep you BUSY. Next airport coming up, plan to enter the pattern, plan for wind, etc etc etc. Putzing 1500 miles away in cruise isn't exercising nearly as much of your brain as doing a round-robin with a few airports.

You've got some work to do on your thought process, if you're not seeing this. It doesn't matter if your instructor is "scenario based" or not, or any of the other crap you've posted... there's a curriculum and things you need to learn and practice, and flying three states away isn't going to exercise those brain muscles nearly as much as working the much shorter and busier XC.

But in all, I'm done, because you're not listening to folks who are telling you that your intended mission is illegal anyway... so I'm seeing there's no point at all to this thread until you're in a mental state to submit to a process and learn from someone. You don't get to tell the instructor how to do their job. Any good instructor can come up with challenges you can't meet at your experience level, in 50 nautical miles, too.

Fly the plan they provide, pass the test, you can buzz along for 1500 miles any time you like. That's how this game works. If you're as accomplished as you say you are, the whole thing should be a piece of cake. You'll be done in a month or two if you've got the time and cash and the weather cooperates.

But if they read this thread and see a pattern of disregard for the regs and impulsivity, don't be too surprised if they don't want their signature in your logbook...

And now I have a reason to go visit Ed! I like Ed. Should be fun. I flew over Ed once in the snowplow and he thought I was trying to hurry him off the runway in Sydney. I wasn't, just waiting for him to get the runway cleared to take some friends to Cabellas, back before they were Bass Pro Light. Long long ago.
 
I'm just gonna leave this here....

2wqfp8y.jpg
 
Plus, 80s as the heyday of the "oil field" up there? Nope. I worked for the oil biz back then, and the 80s weren't all that kind to the area for various reasons.
That's what I love about this site. For some here, their reading comprehension levels are almost nil. I never once said that Sidney, NE (although there are a few wells in the area) was a hotbed of oil activity. How about you look on your map and find Kimball, NE. There was a lot of oil activity (still is to this very day) in that area at the time. I should know because I worked and lived up there for over a year. Now look on your map for Sidney, NE (where Cabelas was originally founded). You will see the distance is not all that far from Kimball. So making the short drive over and taking a couple hours in a Citabria was a no brainer. Now if you remember, and if you actually did work in the oil patch, then you would know that things were rocking in the late 70's and begin to slow down a little in the early 80's. Starting around 1985 things begin to slow down significantly and finally in 1986 pretty much everything ground to a halt. Much like we experienced in this latest bust. Thus the reason why I moved from that area down here to Phoenix, AZ and have been here ever since. Been offered many times to go back to work in the patch and even did for a year in 1991, but for the most part I've been very happy running my businesses and not living out of a suitcase.

BTW... if you're so familiar with the Sidney and Kimball area and actually did work in the oil patch, then you should know who Bruce Evertson was. I lived with/worked for/worked with him while I was up there. One of the best pilots and businessmen I ever met and he taught me more than I'll probably ever be able to digest in an entire lifetime. ;)
 
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Uh huh... if that was the case then every owner of a company who uses a company vehicle to move his equipment or employees around would be required to have a commercial drivers license under the FMC regs. Look at the big picture. Any competent FAA official would do the same.

The regs were written because they didn't want every Tom, Dick, or Harry with a private pilots license hanging out their shingle and advertising to the world that they would "fly for hire" equipment or bodies around for profit. Apples and Oranges!


#1: You used competent and FAA in the same sentence.
#2: You think commercial vehicles and planes somehow relate.

Just the latest 2 examples that you're way out of your lane.
 
#1: You used competent and FAA in the same sentence.
#2: You think commercial vehicles and planes somehow relate.

Just the latest 2 examples that you're way out of your lane.
Yea, that was probably a bit of a stretch using FAA (or any other .gov official for that matter) and competent in the same sentence.

Regarding #2, it's probably beyond your comprehension level, but if you take a "big picture" look at things, you will begin to understand why there are government rules and regulations in place for people who drive trucks, fly airplanes, pilot boats, etc. etc. There are a lot of similarities in the overall scope of things, but I don't expect you to understand any of that. No biggie... :)
 
Oh no! Are you going to get your crayons out next? Maybe vandalize my rental properties?
 
The FAA regulations and the FMC regulations and the laws in each state for commercial vehicles and personal conveyances are all different. Trying to make analogies between them is absolutely futile.

The federal regulations on aircraft and pilots are as I stated them and yes they have been enforced at the perils of people who decide to violate them (intentionally or not).
 
The federal regulations on aircraft and pilots are as I stated them and yes they have been enforced at the perils of people who decide to violate them (intentionally or not).
So if you know all of this as fact, then you should have no problem with providing me with links of enforcement actions, or letters from counsel regarding a private business owner using a plane that's incidental to his normal business operations. I'm still holding my breath...
 
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Uh huh... if that was the case then every owner of a company who uses a company vehicle to move his equipment or employees around would be required to have a commercial drivers license under the FMC regs. Look at the big picture. Any competent FAA official would do the same.

The regs were written because they didn't want every Tom, Dick, or Harry with a private pilots license hanging out their shingle and advertising to the world that they would "fly for hire" equipment or bodies around for profit. Apples and Oranges!
Clearly regulations are suggestions and any suggestions can be interpreted in any way that suits me. Good luck, think u will need it.

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Think the OP is like me... always learn the hard way. Show me who all went to jail after they did x or you. If u can't show me, I am just gonna do it, since no one else got caught, am good.

OP, u came here to ask questions and there are a ton of well established and highly regarded pilots here who is offering right suggestions. It's up to u, if u want to take the benefit of that or not. If you are like me, I already know what I am gonna do, I am just asking for yes boss answers, please do yourself a favor...and don't ask

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Clearly regulations are suggestions and any suggestions can be interpreted in any way that suits me. Good luck, think u will need it.
As I've already stated 1000 times over in this thread. I've already consulted with one of the best (at least I think he is) aviation attorneys here in the Valley and he said I'm good to go. Of course you will have all the Einstein know-it-alls here who will tell me my attorney is full of s**t, and that they know better than him what the FARs are, and how they relate to my business use of an airplane. Like I said... I'm learning real quick on how to separate the wheat from the chaff on this site. :cool:
 
As I've already stated 1000 times over in this thread. I've already consulted with one of the best (at least I think he is) aviation attorneys here in the Valley and he said I'm good to go. Of course you will have all the Einstein know-it-alls here who will tell me my attorney is full of s**t, and that they know better than him what the FARs are, and how they relate to my business use of an airplane. Like I said... I'm learning real quick on how to separate the wheat from the chaff on this site. :cool:
Please post his name and contact info. I'm absolutely certain there are folks here that would benefit from the services of such an awesome resource.
 
As I've already stated 1000 times over in this thread. I've already consulted with one of the best (at least I think he is) aviation attorneys here in the Valley and he said I'm good to go. Of course you will have all the Einstein know-it-alls here who will tell me my attorney is full of s**t, and that they know better than him what the FARs are, and how they relate to my business use of an airplane. Like I said... I'm learning real quick on how to separate the wheat from the chaff on this site. :cool:
Who you callin "chaff" son? You don't want to get on the wrong side of Buford T. justice(from Texarkana Texas):no:
 
First, you can read through a half a dozen chief counsel letters where the FAA spells out how they interpret the regulations. You can stomp your feet all you want but even when you get to federal court, the law says that the agency gets deference in interpreting their own regs. Understand that in an enforcement action, you will spend a lot of time and money before you even see the real judiciary. You will be hanged by three administrative tribunals before you're even eligible to try Federal court. Again, you'll have to show reason why the law (which enables the FAA to create and interpret the regulations) and the case law that states the agencies have the right to say what their rules mean before you can prevail at that level.

But since you want to be petulant about it. Here are a bunch of FAA chief counsel interpretations to read:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2013/randy hurst - (2013) legal interpretation.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2013/hancock - (2013) legal interpretation.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2010/sommer - (2010) legal interpretation.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2010/umphres - (2010) legal interpretation.pdf

(as a matter of fact, the FAA put up a nice search engine to help you: https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...rpretations/?year=all&q=61.113&bSubmit=Search
)

In fact if you can find a copy of the district court decision for Flytenow v. FAA you'll find it also discusses the matter of the 61.113 private pilot restrictions and upholds the FAA intrepretation. My copy is on a pay legal site so I can't link that (well I could but it would do you no good).
 
Here's a federal case more in line with some of your questioning. The district court upheld the NTSB which upheld the FAA: Fuhrman v. Dow. I was able to find a copy on a public site:
https://law.resource.org/pub/us/case/reporter/F2/540/540.F2d.396.76-1084.html

In fact, there are some cases where the federal judiciary think that the FAA isn't strict enough in their interpretation as to what is related and what is incidental. There's a neat side note in this case: https://law.resource.org/pub/us/case/reporter/F3/177/177.F3d.1030.98-1051.html
 
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Hold it!
Don't you ever, ever raise your voice to me!
Do you know who you're talkin' to?
I happen to be FlyingRon,
a distinguished pilot of over 30 years' seniority!

(A World-Renounced Pilot).
 
As I've already stated 1000 times over in this thread. I've already consulted with one of the best (at least I think he is) aviation attorneys here in the Valley and he said I'm good to go.

Folks, I get it. This guy is asking if he can do a 1.5 mile flight for his X-country, not a 1500 mile flight. Stay with me on this...

I was bored this morning and checked his statement about 1000 mentions of checking with a lawyer. As far as I can see, he only mentioned it ONCE, in post 127. So, this fellow doesn't understand the difference between 1000 and 1. 1 to the rest of us is 1000 to him. Based on that, I can only conclude that 1500 miles to him is what to most of us would be 1.5 miles.

So, to the OP, in your numbers, you can't count a 1500 (azblackbird) mile flight for your X-country. You must fly 50,000 of your miles before it counts.


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Here's a federal case more in line with some of your questioning. The district court upheld the NTSB which upheld the FAA: Fuhrman v. Dow. I was able to find a copy on a public site:
https://law.resource.org/pub/us/case/reporter/F2/540/540.F2d.396.76-1084.html
Ron,

In all fairness I do have to commend you on doing your homework. Unfortunately non of those cases (I've already read them anyways) you posted are even remotely close to my personal situation on the incidental use of an airplane for my business. Remember... I told you not to post any of the employee/employer reimbursement BS as none of that has any relevance.

The funeral home director case (which I haven't read) is about the only one that would maybe have any possible relevance. I read the first paragraph and quit reading after that as he was in clear violation of the FAR's for receiving compensation for something that was not incidental to his own personal business.

While in Minneapolis he received a phone call relaying a request from another funeral home director, also located in northwest Iowa, to bring a human corpse back from Minneapolis. He did so and was paid for his expenses.

The FAA would have a hard hill to climb if they tried to chase down and violate the 1000's of private business owners who each day who use an airplane as a tool in their business. They're just not going to do it! First of all they don't have the manpower, and if they did, 98% of the cases would be tossed out of court anyways. So why even think about it. They know they can't win. They will only go after the low hanging fruit.

The attorney I consulted with used to be with the FAA legal dept. He's now on the other side of the fence in his own private practice and defends against the FAA for those that have been charged with any violations. He said I have nothing to worry about. ;)

Regarding doing a long XC... I'm going to do whatever my CFII and the rental company will allow me to do.


 
So u r saying, u know it's against the regulation, but u will still do it because FAA doesn't have the man power to chase you down?? Man... I never wanna be in your airspace

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Just understand this is a guy who openly admitted to vandalizing another man's home in order to force them to move. That will explain the thought process in play.
 
Just understand this is a guy who openly admitted to vandalizing another man's home in order to force them to move. That will explain the thought process in play.
Dude... I don't know what your hard-on is with me, but when the majority of your (19) posts are a slam regarding something I posted... something's definitely wrong in your head!

Sorry bro... but I don't swing that way! ;)
 
Regarding doing a long XC... I'm going to do whatever my CFII and the rental company will allow me to do.

You have a persistent and dangerous attitude that if you're getting instruction you can blame anything you do that is illegal and/or unsafe on your instructor. First, you spin an aircraft specifically placarded against spins (and not in an aircraft category that could be allowed intentional spins). Now you think that you will be exonerated as PILOT IN COMMAND if you conduct business on your solo XC because the flight school or instructor told you it was OK. Chortle. As pilot in command YOU ARE THE ONE RESPONSIBLE. It can't be anybody else, they aren't in the plane. This is why t he FAA goes to all the effort of issuing student pilot certificates to begin with. There's no gray area of interpretation on this one:

14 CFR 61.89
(a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft:
(1) That is carrying a passenger;
(2) That is carrying property for compensation or hire;
(3) For compensation or hire;
(4) In furtherance of a business;

You are responsible to know this and follow it even if your instructor doesn't tell you.
 
think its time to lock to this thread. this is a train wreck waiting to happen
 
You have a persistent and dangerous attitude that if you're getting instruction you can blame anything you do that is illegal and/or unsafe on your instructor. First, you spin an aircraft specifically placarded against spins (and not in an aircraft category that could be allowed intentional spins). Now you think that you will be exonerated as PILOT IN COMMAND if you conduct business on your solo XC because the flight school or instructor told you it was OK. Chortle. As pilot in command YOU ARE THE ONE RESPONSIBLE. It can't be anybody else, they aren't in the plane. This is why t he FAA goes to all the effort of issuing student pilot certificates to begin with. There's no gray area of interpretation on this one:

14 CFR 61.89
(a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft:
(1) That is carrying a passenger;
(2) That is carrying property for compensation or hire;
(3) For compensation or hire;
(4) In furtherance of a business;

You are responsible to know this and follow it even if your instructor doesn't tell you.
Come'on man, you can't be that thick. Who ever said I was going to conduct business as a student pilot? Some of you guys amaze me with your lack of reading comprehension skills. :(
 
Ron,

In all fairness I do have to commend you on doing your homework. Unfortunately non of those cases (I've already read them anyways) you posted are even remotely close to my personal situation on the incidental use of an airplane for my business. Remember... I told you not to post any of the employee/employer reimbursement BS as none of that has any relevance.

The funeral home director case (which I haven't read) is about the only one that would maybe have any possible relevance. I read the first paragraph and quit reading after that as he was in clear violation of the FAR's for receiving compensation for something that was not incidental to his own personal business.

While in Minneapolis he received a phone call relaying a request from another funeral home director, also located in northwest Iowa, to bring a human corpse back from Minneapolis. He did so and was paid for his expenses.

The FAA would have a hard hill to climb if they tried to chase down and violate the 1000's of private business owners who each day who use an airplane as a tool in their business. They're just not going to do it! First of all they don't have the manpower, and if they did, 98% of the cases would be tossed out of court anyways. So why even think about it. They know they can't win. They will only go after the low hanging fruit.

The attorney I consulted with used to be with the FAA legal dept. He's now on the other side of the fence in his own private practice and defends against the FAA for those that have been charged with any violations. He said I have nothing to worry about. ;)

Regarding doing a long XC... I'm going to do whatever my CFII and the rental company will allow me to do.


From what you initially described, "incidental" isn't exactly what's happening. Maybe you are changing what's going to happen, but I doubt it.

And the FAA doesn't chase down the businesses, it's called a ramp check.
 
You are talking about conducting business and flying your long XC for your PPL. How are we supposed to discern that you were only kidding.

Also, it doesn't help your situation that you can't EVER post a comment to someone who disagrees with you without making a personal attack out of it. You're only the second person that I've ever put IGNORE on in this forum. I no longer need to hear anything you say.
 
You are talking about conducting business and flying your long XC for your PPL. How are we supposed to discern that you were only kidding.
Scenario dude... scenario! Do you know what scenario means? My planned XC will be based on a "scenario" as it would apply to how I plan to use an airplane for my business. Not actually conducting business! Same goes for a "scenario" based training situation in using an airplane for finding ground to gold prospect. Banked turns, point turns, S turns, slow flight, map reading, marking waypoints, etc. etc.

Come'on guys... get with the program! ;)
 
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Yeah, it's amazing what the chaff can do with a little time on the FAA site and a legal search engine when provoked.

I'm pretty sure the chaff blew in, and the wheat was already here. :)

Thread needs some troll spray.
 
Scenario dude... scenario! Do you know what scenario means? My planned XC will be based on a "scenario" as it would apply to how I plan to use an airplane for my business. Not actually conducting business! Same goes for a "scenario" based training situation in using an airplane for finding ground to gold prospect. Banked turns, point turns, S turns, slow flight, map reading, marking waypoints, etc. etc.

Come'on guys... get with the program! ;)
Better add in some engine out, off field, night landings to your solo flight. You know "scenarios" you're going to need to prepare for. Make sure the school you pick has a twin so you can do your solo in a multi too.
 
So if you know all of this as fact, then you should have no problem with providing me with links of enforcement actions, or letters from counsel regarding a private business owner using a plane that's incidental to his normal business operations. I'm still holding my breath...
Why the hell would anyone waste their time looking up case histories for you? You've made it clear you have you mind made up already. You have some very knowledgeable people here passing on their knowledge and you're treating them like internet trolls.

Quit wasting everyone's time with your stupid posts and just go do what your going to do. You are clearly not here to learn, so why bother?
 
Your solo XCs are going to be way different than you expect. You might be able to talk your CFI into letting you select your route, but maybe not: he or she is still responsible for you and will be trying to keep you from overextending yourself. You're expecting fun and games and sightseeing. You are going to find out that it's all about maintaining altitudes, headings, hitting your checkpoints on time, recalculating times, fuel management, verifying fuel burn when you add gas, grabbing a bite to eat, checking weather, monitoring engine instruments, situational awareness, flight following, and doing this all at airports you have probably never seen. If you have time to do any sightseeing, you are probably taking time away from flying the airplane. You will probably find that you will be mentally fatigued by the time it's over and you will be right at the point where you will start making stupid mental mistakes because of that.
 
Hey, azblackguy. Since your legal guy is the best in the country, why don't you post a few cases where HE has been successful? You see, most of us have our planes and licenses, we have nothing to prove. We can already fly. But your story stinks like a 5 month old Big Mac.
 
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