PPL solo X-country... am I allowed to plan my own route?

You guys need to get off this reimbursement and compensation kick. It's really getting comical.

I'll throw this out there. Let's say I have clients in Wilcox, AZ. I rent a plane for the day and fly down and meet with them. During our business meetings I write $3000 worth of advertising business. I get back and am billed $700 for the plane rental.

According to some of you Einsteins here, I would have made $3700 for the day because I was being "compensated" or "reimbursed" for the airplane expenses.

On my planet... I really only grossed $2300 for the day, as the $700 airplane rental was an expense I incurred to conduct that business. No different whether I drove my truck and incurred a $100 fuel bill plus the minimal depreciation and other misc. expenses. It all goes in the expense column.

Are you all beginning to get it now?
 
azblackbird said:
According to some of you Einsteins here, I would have made $3700 for the day because I was being "compensated" or "reimbursed" for the airplane expenses.
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azblackbird said:
Are you all beginning to get it now?
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I am on your side...but this is clearly one area that you have demonstrated that you do not "get it". "Compensation" in the FAA's eyes is not just monetary benefit in this context. If you are able to pay less than your pro rata share and being fully reimbursed or company is paying for the direct flight expenses...the "compensation" is not only the $700, but also the free flight time and hours logged which you were paid to fly by being reimbursed by the company which is strictly regulated. Even just flight time in the eyes of the FAA is "compensation" as stupid as it sounds regardless if you are using those hours to further a rating or not.

Heck, the FAA will not even allow volunteer Young Eagle pilots to receive a discount on gas for flying kids as that is considered a form of "compensation" for flying outside a CPL.

That is all separate from the ability to write that $700 off from the IRS as a business deduction.

Are you beginning to get it now?
 
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Shawn said:
I am on your side...but this is clearly one area that you have demonstrated that you do not "get it". "Compensation" in the FAA's eyes is not just monetary benefit in this context. If you are able to pay less than your pro rata share and being full reimbursed for the direct flight expenses...the "compensation" is not only the $700, but also the free flight time and hours logged which you were paid to fly by being reimbursed by the company which is strictly regulated.
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My use of an airplane is a business transportation tool to get from point A to B in the most efficient manner possible. Rather than spending all day on the road driving and incurring fuel/hotel expenses etc.. It's way easier just to fly down, do my business, and fly back all in one day.

Nobody is paying me to fly, nor am I getting "reimbursed" or "compensated" from the company... I am the company! As you said... show me one case of the FAA busting a legitimate business owner for using an airplane as a business/transportation tool.
 
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azblackbird said:
Nobody is paying me to fly, nor am I getting "reimbursed" or compensated!l.
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But that is the catch and what you are not comprehending...unless you individually are paying for the direct flight expenses you are indeed being "compensated" according to the FAA, but there are a few loopholes that still allow it as a PPL and the owner of the aircraft.

If you do not own (or rent) that plane as the individual, then the "company" is providing you the free flight time as compensation which is not permitted as a PPL per the FFA.

The FAA regulations regarding PPL/CPL limitations and privileges and your ability to deduct the expense per the IRS are two separate sets of issues.

Buy an hour of consultation with a legit independent aviation lawyer and aviation specific CPA to make sure it is structured properly especially of you wanna purchase...rather than your CPA that gave it a "once over". It is indeed Rocket Science with all the nuance.
 
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Shawn said:
But that is the catch and what you are not comprehending...unless you individually are paying for the direct flight expenses you are indeed being "compensated" according to the FAA, but there are a few loopholes that still allow it as a PPL and the owner of the aircraft.

If you do not own (or rent) that plane as the individual, then the "company" is providing you the free flight time as compensation which is not permitted as a PPL per the FFA.

The FAA regulations regarding PPL/CPL limitations and privileges and your ability to deduct the expense per the IRS are two separate sets of issues.

Buy an hour of consultation with a legit independent aviation lawyer and aviation specific CPA to make sure it is structured properly especially of you wanna purchase...rather than your CPA that gave it a "once over". It is indeed Rocket Science with all the nuance.
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But if you don't log it, you should be fine.
 
And if the company owns the plane and rents it to you, it may well need 100-hour inspections. The IRS is not the issue but rather the FAA. I think you are on thin ice with many of your plans.
 
He has made it clear as day that he doesn't give a rats behind about regulations, so it won't matter

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
WannFly said:
He has made it clear as day that he doesn't give a rats behind about regulations, so it won't matter
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No, he has just made it clear that he does not UNDERSTAND the regulations and it nuance and established interpretations which is needed to propperly structure what he wants to do legally...which is possible, but it has to be done correctly.
 
azblackbird said:
My business is totally automated and is a very simple business.
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The fastest, safest and most direct way to find out if what you want to do is viable is to call a FSDO and ask. The same applies to the IRS. Ask them before you assume and get into a bind.
 
Shawn said:
unless you individually are paying for the direct flight expenses
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Ahhhh... now you're getting it. I'm a one man/sole proprietor/owner operator of my business. Any income/expenses etc. for my company(s) is all on me.

And don't get started on the sole proprietor vs. LLC vs. S-Corp vs C-Corp BS... my bases are covered. ;)
 
azblackbird said:
Ahhhh... now you're getting it. I'm a one man/sole proprietor/owner operator of my business.

And don't get started on the sole proprietor vs. LLC vs. S-Corp vs C-Corp BS... my bases are covered. ;)
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As a Sole Proprietor it is indeed a heck of a lot easier to do what you want to do holding just a PPL but you can only write off/deduct/reimburse the full flight expenses if you are flying SOLO.

The legal entities distinction is not at all "BS" when it comes to legally flying. It all matters. If that distinction was not explained by your aviation "advisor' then you bases are not at all covered. Income/expenses have noting to do with it...FAA regulations do which is what we are trying to help you understand.

That arrogance is why you get so much criticism from the peanut gallery.:D

On the widget issue..you can not carry cargo for hire. Here is how it was explained to me based on the FAA's interpretations:

Pilot A is a videographer. He travels to a client with his camera and gear, shoots, then hands the footage to a the client on a thumb drive. Legal. The flying was incidental to the business.

Pilot B is SELLS thumb drives. Client buys a thumb drive and Pilot B delivers it using his plane. Regardless of what else went on with business. NOT legal. Delivery of the thumb drive was part of the business.
 
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Shawn said:
As a Sole Proprietor it is indeed a heck of a lot easier to do what you want to do holding just a PPL
The legal entities distinction is not at all "BS" when it comes to legally flying. It all matters. If that distinction was not explained by your aviation "advisor' then you bases are not at all covered. Income/expenses have noting to do with it...FAA regulations do which is what we are trying to help you understand.
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@Shawn ... He knows my legal entity. Never discussed the ramifications involved if I incorporate, hire employees, open satellite offices, etc, etc. It was a short simple conversation. I gave him my current business scenario and how I was going to apply the use of an airplane for the business. He said no worries, I'm good to go. Same goes for my CPA. Only he advised if I actually were to purchase an airplane and want to expense/depreciate it for business use, I should try to stay above the 75% threshold. Concerning rentals, I just expense those flights that were for business purposes only. ;)
 
Probably the best advice for @azblackbird is: Get an actual certificate, violate all the regs you plan to, and stop talking about it on the internet so the trail can go cold in the investigation.

Probably step 3 is the most important for the members here.


And just read your latest jibberish... how are you renting planes today, with no certificate? All of the regs about commercial use would be if you were the pilot. If you are paying someone to fly a rented plane you are okay. Assuming of course they follow the regs you seem to prefer to subvert.
 
I think it makes a big difference sole-prop. vs corp. If the corporation owns the plane and lets you fly it (even if your corporation is just you) then you are getting compensated if the corporation paid for fuel and other expenses. You can't do that with a PPL. If the corporation lets you rent it and then you pay for the fuel, that is ok, but it will require 100-hour checks and might affect your insurance too.

This is all just pie in the sky until you get a certificate... which will require actual lessons.
 
Ravioli said:
Probably the best advice for @azblackbird is: Get an actual certificate, violate all the regs you plan to, and stop talking about it on the internet so the trail can go cold in the investigation.

Probably step 3 is the most important for the members here.


And just read your latest jibberish... how are you renting planes today, with no certificate? All of the regs about commercial use would be if you were the pilot. If you are paying someone to fly a rented plane you are okay. Assuming of course they follow the regs you seem to prefer to subvert.
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Who said u NEED a cert to fly? It's a suggestion, like the constitution, speed limits etc

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
Ravioli said:
Probably the best advice for @azblackbird is: Get an actual certificate, violate all the regs you plan to, and stop talking about it on the internet so the trail can go cold in the investigation.

And just read your latest jibberish... how are you renting planes today, with no certificate? All of the regs about commercial use would be if you were the pilot.
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Agreed. Nearly 300 posts later and the horse is still taking abuse. Why is this still being argued? :dunno:
 
Ravioli said:
Probably the bet advice for @azblackbird is: Get an actual certificate, violate all the regs you plan to, and stop talking about it on the internet so the trail can go cold in the investigation.
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Actually I would hope that there are some FAA inspectors and IRS officials that are reading these threads. I'd love nothing better than to hear their opinions straight from the horses mouth per se. ;)

DesertNomad said:
I think it makes a big difference sole-prop. vs corp. If the corporation owns the plane and lets you fly it (even if your corporation is just you) then you are getting compensated if the corporation paid for fuel and other expenses. You can't do that with a PPL. If the corporation lets you rent it and then you pay for the fuel, that is ok, but it will require 100-hour checks and might affect your insurance too.
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@DesertNomad you're exactly right. If you are getting directly reimbursed or compensated from your corporation/company for flying an airplane, then you could be in some sticky situations. There are numerous counsel letters on that exact matter.

As a sole proprietor I am the company. All expenses/income flow directly through me and are not under a separate company/corporate umbrella.
 
Ryanb said:
Agreed. Nearly 300 posts later and the horse is still taking abuse. Why is this still being argued? :dunno:
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Because we all keep creating scenarios that do not apply to his situation...mainly to make sure the regulations are understood.

As a sole proprietor business owner flying SOLO where the business is incidental to the flying a PPL can indeed legally fully expense all the direct costs of a flight and log the hours without being in violation of the FAA...but it is a VERY narrow band to be able to operate within.
 
Shawn said:
As a sole proprietor business owner flying SOLO where the business is incidental to the flying a PPL can indeed legally fully expense all the direct costs of a flight and log the hours without being in violation of the FAA.
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THANK YOU!
 
scumbag-steve-look-out-guys-we-got-ourselves-a-gangsta.jpg
 
Well, we did get up for a nice flight a few years back. I'm left wondering if azblackbird ever did get to do any lessons though. He was fun to fly with and fairly well informed about GA flying.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
I'm left wondering if azblackbird ever did get to do any lessons though. He was fun to fly with and fairly well informed about GA flying
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I wonder what ever did happen.. seemed like a nice guy, I never did understand the desire to do 1,500 nm XC pre-PPL but hey we can all dream!

@azblackbird are you still around friend? Care to give us an update?
 
The long trip was sort of paralleling a motorcycle trip he had done long ago, as I understand it.
 
Thanks to all the respondents to the OP. I doubt he learned much, if anything, but I learned a lot, so your responses weren’t a complete waste of time.

I figure when I’m ready for my XC solo, I’ll want to keep it as short as possible to minimize plane rental costs. Also, I’ve wondered about building up endurance for long distance flights and I got some stories about actual experiences.

So, thanks guys (and gals if any).
 
Crashnburn said:
Thanks to all the respondents to the OP. I doubt he learned much, if anything, but I learned a lot, so your responses weren’t a complete waste of time.

I figure when I’m ready for my XC solo, I’ll want to keep it as short as possible to minimize plane rental costs. Also, I’ve wondered about building up endurance for long distance flights and I got some stories about actual experiences.

So, thanks guys (and gals if any).
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Don't short yourself on your XC just to save a buck. It's a great experience - yeah, you can do the minimum and there's no shame in it, but allow yourself at least one long flight to not worry about the cost.
 
Matthew said:
Don't short yourself on your XC just to save a buck. It's a great experience - yeah, you can do the minimum and there's no shame in it, but allow yourself at least one long flight to not worry about the cost.
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Not to mention, adding 30 minutes to a flight costs a lot less than taking another 30 minute flight some other day. Especially when you factor in your time to get to the airport, time taxiing, etc.
 
Salty said:
Not to mention, adding 30 minutes to a flight costs a lot less than taking another 30 minute flight some other day. Especially when you factor in your time to get to the airport, time taxiing, etc.
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OK Thanks for the advice.
 
Ok, so it’ll be from KRHV to Harris Ranch then to Buttonwillow and great BBQ at the Willow Ranch Inn, then back. And for my comm solo XC Chino airport and Flabob Airport, if not Catalina Island
 
BTW I estimate Hobbs time by entering the flight into skyvector's flight planning box and then adding 0.5 hours to each leg for start up, run up, taxi, take-off and pattern entry/exit.
 
Crashnburn said:
Ok, so it’ll be from KRHV to Harris Ranch then to Buttonwillow and great BBQ at the Willow Ranch Inn, then back. And for my comm solo XC Chino airport and Flabob Airport, if not Catalina Island
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Dont know where Buttonwillow is but KRHV to 3O8 is more than enough distance on its own; good eats at Harris Ranch too.

For your Commercial XC, keep in mind you need 3 stops and 2 legs, one of which must be >250NM with the whole trip covering 300NM. Chino/Flabob would cover your distances nicely but definitely recommend getting out to Catalina if you can swing down that way (especially since they have a new runway) as its a unique experience. Also dont forget you need to do 2x 2hour 100NM XC with an instructor, one at night one during the day when you get to Commercial.

I also recommend you consider a trip crossing the Sierra Nevada's. If you're looking for an interesting airport to go to on the other side, L06 Furnace Creek is a cool one to check out. Quiet, no real activity, located in a National Park, it is the lowest airport in North America.
 
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Matthew said:
And keep close track of your XC time. Don't be that guy that lands 0.1 hr short and has do to another XC to cover the shortage.
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Oh man, when I did my long XC, I noticed that the Hobbs needed to tick over one more time after I landed. I made sure the before engine shutdown checklist took a few minutes that day.
 
david.h said:
Oh man, when I did my long XC, I noticed that the Hobbs needed to tick over one more time after I landed. I made sure the before engine shutdown checklist took a few minutes that day.
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Before mine, my CFI and I added up all my time. My instructions were clear, "Whatever you do, don't land before the Hobbs says 'x.x'. Do slow flights, s-turns, 360s, fly around some more and come back."

It was a little while later I saw another student head out on a >50NM XC because he was .1 or .2 hrs short.
 
apr911 said:
Dont know where Buttonwillow is but KRHV to 3O8 is more than enough distance on its own; good eats at Harris Ranch too.

For your Commercial XC, keep in mind you need 3 stops and 2 legs, one of which must be <250NM with the whole trip covering 300NM. Chino/Flabob would cover your distances nicely but definitely recommend getting out to Catalina if you can swing down that way (especially since they have a new runway) as its a unique experience. Also dont forget you need to do 2x 2hour 100NM XC with an instructor, one at night one during the day when you get to Commercial.

I also recommend you consider a trip crossing the Sierra Nevada's. If you're looking for an interesting airport to go to on the other side, L06 Furnace Creek is a cool one to check out. Quiet, no real activity, located in a National Park, it is the lowest airport in North America.
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Thanks for the tips. Button Willow is almost due west of Bakersfield. Willow Ranch BBQ blows Harris Ranch out of the water with respect to BBQ!

Oh, and it'll be a while before I'm ready for any of these trips, but (from South Pacific) "If you don't have a dream, how you gonna make a dream come true?"
 
I came across this thread from reading another. What happened to the OP? I imagine he got his PPL since he has a bunch of posts on here. Want to chime in?
 
Last time I saw him post several years after the start of this thread he still hadn’t started lessons.
 
francisco collazos said:
I came across this thread from reading another. What happened to the OP? I imagine he got his PPL since he has a bunch of posts on here. Want to chime in?
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Holy crud! What a rabbit hole you sent me down tonight @francisco collazos ! This AZblackbird guy...lets just say...is interesting.

And if you read his other threads, its not difficult to make the assumption that he STILL has not started lessons, or started a plane parts business, or lived full time in a motorhome...etc
 
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