Pilots breaking VFR minimums

TheGolfPilot

TheGolfPilot

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Modesto, CA
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Golfpilot
Today I was on an approach and as I was going in and out of clouds I kept getting traffic alerts. I get one "1- mile 1 o'clock 2500' and I look there and its a solid cloud. Then a plane pops out of it. At that time I was still in IMC conditions and it was clear as day to me that that guy was in IMC as well. I reported him to ATC letting them know exactly what I saw. ATC didn't seem to care. The plane was flying VFR in IMC conditions less than 500 feet from an approach corridor. That isn't the first time that has happened this year in N. California to me. Does the FAA hear my complaint, does atc report it? Is there someone else I need to report these events to? Those types of pilots shouldn't be flying.
 
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TheGolfPilot said:
Today I was on an approach and as I was going in and out of clouds I kept getting traffic alerts. I get one "1- mile 1 o'clock 2500' and I look there and its a solid cloud. Then a plane pops out of it. At that time I was still in IMC conditions and it was clear as day to me that that guy was in IMC as well. I reported him to ATC letting them know exactly what I saw. ATC didn't seem to care. The plane was flying VFR in IMC conditions less than 500 feet from an approach corridor. That isn't the first time that has happened this year in N. California to me. Does the FAA hear my complaint, does atc report it? Is there someone else I need to report these events to? Those types of pilots shouldn't be flying.
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You actually saw a plane? Did ATC have anything on their radar? For various resins, it is not uncommon for traffic systems to depict your shadow as a potential traffic alert. It's a little unnerving, particularly when the alert comes outta nowhere to tell you about a plane, 12 o'clock, less than a mile, same altitude.
 
Brad Z said:
You actually saw a plane? Did ATC have anything on their radar? For various resins, it is not uncommon for traffic systems to depict your shadow as a potential traffic alert. It's a little unnerving, particularly when the alert comes outta nowhere to tell you about a plane, 12 o'clock, less than a mile, same altitude.
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yes. I had broken out so I was watching that cloud with thoughts I might actually see a plane cruise out of it. When he popped out I saw him, and the tower even confirmed it was a vfr aircraft with Travis approch. Travis kept giving me traffic alerts and I kept telling them I was in and out of clouds but looking. Just really irritating and scary.
 
It is one persons perception of events vs another. I have been on both sides of this issue - the plane believing the other was breaking minimums and the plane reported as having just "popped out of the cloud".

In one instance I was VFR over the top, with absolutely clear skies above, Northwest bound at 8500 with a rising cloud deck in front of me. The tops were around 6500 a few miles behind me but higher in front of me. An IFR aircraft at 9000 was coming from the opposite direction. ATC advised him of me as traffic opposite direction at 8500. He stated he was in and out of clouds at 9000 and if I was at 8500 I was "definitely in the clouds." Due to the rising cloud deck I chose to climb. After a short while he reported to ATC that he saw me "pop out of the clouds." This of course was absolutely not the case, but was his perception of it.

In another instance I was IFR in and out of the tops at 10000 and has ATC report traffic VFR at 10.5 that I could not see as I was more in the tops than out of the tops.
 
How do you tell the difference between emerging from a cloud, and emerging from behind it? Cloud clearance in class C/D/E is well under 1 mile, and patchy clouds can be much smaller than that.

I've been inside Stratus and gotten a traffic call for over-the-top VFR traffic 500 above. I broke out myself several minutes later, so it was probably legit. In Class B, cloud clearance is zero.
 
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MAKG1 said:
How do you tell the difference between emerging from a cloud, and emerging from behind it? Cloud clearance in class C/D/E is well under 1 mile, and patchy clouds can be much smaller than that.

I've been inside Stratus and gotten a traffic call for over-the-top VFR traffic 500 above. I broke out myself several minutes later, so it was probably legit. In Class B, cloud clearance is zero.
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If you are in a cloud and a plane is 500 feet above you, wouldn't that place him in IMC conditions? 500 feet above a cloud is not VFR conditions unless you are flying in Class B.
What do you mean cloud clearance in Class C/D/E is well under 1 mile? what does that even mean? VFR guys need to be 1000 above 500 below and 2000 horizontal with a few exceptions, the rest of the time they need to be on the ground.
 
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TheGolfPilot said:
If you are in a cloud and a plane is 500 feet above you, wouldn't that place him in IMC conditions? 500 feet above a cloud is not VFR conditions unless you are flying in Class B.
What do you mean cloud clearance in Class C/D/E is well under 1 mile? what does that even mean? VFR guys need to be 1000 above 500 below and 2000 horizontal with a few exceptions, the rest of the time they need to be on the ground.
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I WAS flying in Class B, and 500 feet above a stable cloud deck is perfectly legit there. I was near OSI VOR on an IFR clearance at 6000. The VFR traffic was above at 6500.

For your case, he was a mile off the track according to your post. Lateral cloud clearance is only 2000 feet, so I don't see how you could tell he was IN clouds, rather than behind them.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
yes. I had broken out so I was watching that cloud with thoughts I might actually see a plane cruise out of it. When he popped out I saw him, and the tower even confirmed it was a vfr aircraft with Travis approch. Travis kept giving me traffic alerts and I kept telling them I was in and out of clouds but looking. Just really irritating and scary.
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So you were VMC when you saw a VFR aircraft?
 
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It happens all the time. I used to get upset about it but in recent years have just come to accept that a large number of pilots out there stretch the rules when it comes to VFR cloud separation. Especially if you hear someone say "well if I can see through it, it is okay". So you can have a layer with maybe 75% coverage of cumulus clouds maybe 2000 feet thick, and you will find a VFR pilot out there who thinks that is okay, and they don't need to observe minimum cloud separation rules because "I can see through it" (AKA "I can see a speck of blue sky on the other side").

The best policy? Be on your guard, never assume that other pilots are following rules. If there is a layer of clouds try to stay as far away from it as you can (either below or above it).
 
James331 said:
So you were VMC when you say a VFR aircraft?
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I was breaking out of a maybe 7/8 coverage broken at 2500 feet. So I was descending through 2k when I saw the reported traffic who was 500 feet popping through and around that thick broken. I went ahead and sent a safety report to the faa. I guess they can decide by looking at their radar and listening to the conversations whether there was a safety issue that needs to be addressed
 
Nope


You have no idea the vis he was in.

I can take a knife and hold it beside my hand, from one angle it looks like I stabbed it through my hand, yet from another angle it is obvious I didn't, same chit.

I wouldn't have tried to light the guy up over it, just race your own race bud
 
He was at 2500', this picture was taken yesterday as I was descending those clouds were at 2500'. This plane was flying what appeared to be through these clouds and was was on radar as being at the same height as these clouds, you tell me could you fly at the same altitude of those clouds and remain legal VMC and I'll admit I was seeing something.
LsicOBv
click the link because i can't figure out how to get the picture
http://imgur.com/LsicOBv
 
I agree, it happens a lot more than you think. Is it illegal? Sure. Does it stop pilots from doing it? Nope.
Same with speeding in a car or not using turn signals. Some people just don't give a sh*t. Get used to it, it is not going to change anytime soon.

But I will second the words to be on guard. Yes, FF or IFR flight will give you traffic advisories but still look outside when in VMC. Obviously, there are some Yahoos out there.
And most importantly, enjoy the fluffy clouds! :)
 
No picture,when the controller advises traffic ,just report to the controller ,you are IMC. Let him question the traffic.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
He was at 2500', this picture was taken yesterday as I was descending those clouds were at 2500'. This plane was flying what appeared to be through these clouds and was was on radar as being at the same height as these clouds, you tell me could you fly at the same altitude of those clouds and remain legal VMC and I'll admit I was seeing something.
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LsicOBv.jpg


I dunno, that doesn't look like a ceiling to me, yeah there's a lot of clouds, but scattered, yeah, ovc or bkn..don't think so..
 
TheGolfPilot said:
He was at 2500', this picture was taken yesterday as I was descending those clouds were at 2500'. This plane was flying what appeared to be through these clouds and was was on radar as being at the same height as these clouds, you tell me could you fly at the same altitude of those clouds and remain legal VMC and I'll admit I was seeing something.
LsicOBv

http://imgur.com/LsicOBv
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LsicOBv.jpg


Yeah, I could easily fly above the clouds and descend back down and be VFR legal, where your aircraft is in the picture I think you're over SCT, might be BKN a ways off your wingtip.

Yeah you could be blowing through the clouds IFR and I could be climbing besides you VMC/VFR legal.

Also unless he confirmed his altitude how did you know he was at 2,500?

Race your own race.
 
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I don't even "really" count it a cloud if I can see through to the other side, which you definitely can with a few of those.

This on the other hand..well..this wouldn't be something you could cut through :)

upload_2016-4-22_15-13-22.png
 
That angle hides the holes. They may have been much larger 1 mile away. Even with the limitation, that photo appears to show clear spots at the upper left and upper right.

I wouldn't descend through that without a clearance, but that's much less cloud than you led us to believe. It's a very thin stable layer, and it wouldn't take that much of a hole to pop through.
 
I was expecting it to be thicker cloud coverage than that. I would think you could get through that somewhere VFR.
 
This is a ceiling, even if I thought I saw a VFR plane pop out, unless I was flying formation with them when they did it, or was directly below them as they went through, I wouldn't feel comfortable saying they busted.

image.jpg
 
BigBadLou said:
I agree, it happens a lot more than you think. Is it illegal? Sure. Does it stop pilots from doing it? Nope.
Same with speeding in a car or not using turn signals. Some people just don't give a sh*t. Get used to it, it is not going to change anytime soon.
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More like running a red light than speeding or not using a turn signal, in terms of the safety impact. Puts traffic with every right to be in the intersection at risk of an accident they have no way to anticipate.

I'm in the "bust 'em without mercy" camp if I can be 100% sure they're illegal - but as has been pointed out in this thread, that is almost always nontrivial and usually impossible for a pilot. One obvious exception would be if you almost traded paint with another plane in the soup - particularly if you were able to take down a tail number. Or if a plane pops out of a nearby large cloud, same altitude as you, on a collision course, though in that case you'd be lucky to see him in time to avoid a collision if he was close enough for you to be sure he was actually popping out of the cloud. Even an alert from ATC of non-participating traffic at an altitude that you know is in the clouds wouldn't be proof positive, since the altitude comes from that plane's mode C, which could be way off.
 
I get the sense that many of the same safety nazis here, who are so eager to rat out another pilot for flying too close to a cloud, are the same ones who will knowingly trundle straight through an active MOA because its "legal". But, maybe I'm wrong.
 
Cooter143 said:
I get the sense that many of the same safety nazis here, who are so eager to rat out another pilot for flying too close to a cloud, are the same ones who will knowingly trundle straight through an active MOA because its "legal". But, maybe I'm wrong.
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There is no reason to suppose that aside from prejudice.
 
Cooter143 said:
I get the sense that many of the same safety nazis here, who are so eager to rat out another pilot for flying too close to a cloud, are the same ones who will knowingly trundle straight through an active MOA because its "legal". But, maybe I'm wrong.
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I'm not a saftey nazi, nor would I try to make trouble for the person the OP described, but I will go through MOAs without hesitation and why not? It's a MOA not a R or P for a reason.
 
James331 said:
I'm not a saftey nazi, nor would I try to make trouble for the person the OP described, but I will go through MOAs without hesitation and why not? It's a MOA not a R or P for a reason.
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Why not? It's a MOA for a reason as well. There is sufficient reason not to, just because it's legal doesn't mean it's a good idea. But my point is that lots of people want to scold others for being unsafe when they are just as unsafe if not more so themselves.
 
I have flown all day in that broken/scattered stuff from the pic and I'm strictly VFR. That said, I wouldn't stay there; I'd get above or below it with all due speed. As for MOA's, if I'm unfamiliar with them I'll check, but around me, I've been flying in them for 15 years and I think I've checked with Indy center exactly once on the status of Buckeye MOA.
 
iflyvfr said:
I have flown all day in that broken/scattered stuff from the pic and I'm strictly VFR. That said, I wouldn't stay there; I'd get above or below it with all due speed. As for MOA's, if I'm unfamiliar with them I'll check, but around me, I've been flying in them for 15 years and I think I've checked with Indy center exactly once on the status of Buckeye MOA.
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What do you mean by familiar with them? Are you saying that you don't check on the Buckeye MOA because you know what's going on in there or you know it's active times?
 
Cooter143 said:
I get the sense that many of the same safety nazis here, who are so eager to rat out another pilot for flying too close to a cloud, are the same ones who will knowingly trundle straight through an active MOA because its "legal". But, maybe I'm wrong.
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Will I fly through an active MOA because it is legal, really that is a question? The fact that it is legal permits me to fly through an active MOA, do you only do things which are illegal? Or do you have a secret set of rules the rest of us are unaware of? BTW there is no need to put quotes on the word legal.
 
CRAFT said:
Will I fly through an active MOA because it is legal, really that is a question? The fact that it is legal permits me to fly through an active MOA, do you only do things which are illegal? Or do you have a secret set of rules the rest of us are unaware of? BTW there is no need to put quotes on the word legal.
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Do I do things which are illegal? No, not usually. Do you do everything that is legal, just because you can? Before you fly through the MOA do you know what kind of training is taking place? Did you know that military aircraft are allowed to fly lights out at night in many MOAs? How are you planning to see and avoid with an aircraft that is covert lights only?
 
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Cooter143 said:
Why not? It's a MOA for a reason as well. There is sufficient reason not to, just because it's legal doesn't mean it's a good idea. But my point is that lots of people want to scold others for being unsafe when they are just as unsafe if not more so themselves.
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Just because launching into clear VFR is legal, doesn't mean it is a good idea. Flying is risky. Flying single engine recips with few back-up systems? Very risky over time.

I don't see that flying through an MOA adds a measurable amount of risk to our pursuit.

But if you want to dodge around MOA's, knock yourself out.
 
I'd suspect a covert mode millitary plane could see a 172 with full lights, or even one running dark.
 
James331 said:
I'd suspect a covert mode millitary plane could see a 172 with full lights, or even one running dark.
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kyleb said:
I don't see that flying through an MOA adds a measurable amount of risk to our pursuit.
But if you want to dodge around MOA's, knock yourself out.
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So my initial point is pretty well confirmed. I'm not interested in incurring the wrath of all the POA authorities, but you guys don't know what you're talking about. If anyone here is interested in learning something, I could help you out. Instead, it seems you want to take sides and prove your point instead of learning something about what actually happens when you fly through a MOA. I know, you've flown through them for years and haven't had a problem. But you've more likely than not created problems than you are blissfully unaware of, and potentially been involved in near mid-airs than you never saw.

BTW, I do fly around MOAs if they are active.
 
Cooter143 said:
So my initial point is pretty well confirmed. I'm not interested in incurring the wrath of all the POA authorities, but you guys don't know what you're talking about. If anyone here is interested in learning something, I could help you out. Instead, it seems you want to take sides and prove your point instead of learning something about what actually happens when you fly through a MOA. I know, you've flown through them for years and haven't had a problem. But you've more likely than not created problems than you are blissfully unaware of, and potentially been involved in near mid-airs than you never saw.

BTW, I do fly around MOAs if they are active.
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Well then, educate us.
 
James331 said:
Well then, educate us.
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Gladly!:)

The initial point I wanted to make was against those (maybe just the OP) that were up in arms about somebody being unsafe and willing to turn him to the FAA. I'm not a fan of that attitude because there's plenty of self inspection that should be happening before being willing to turn a fellow pilot in. For the most part, the OP had no idea what was really going on with the other airplane and should leave well enough alone.

But, I brought up MOAs because other than some of the buffoonery going on around some small GA airports, the biggest problems I've had have been in MOAs. Many VFR pilots love to talk about cloud clearance requirements (on one of my recent BFRs the CFI spent about 20min showing me a good way to memorize them), but will fly right into a MOA with no clue as to what is going on in there or what hazards are present. So I would ask, what makes you think you are safe just because the rules allow you to do it? Do you know that very few of the safety incidents between mil/civ aircraft in MOAs are reported? There is really no way for a VFR pilot to know what impact they have when transiting a MOA unless they do their homework.

Before flying through a MOA, a pilot needs to know whether its active and if there are aircraft in there. There may be two or there may be ten, and military pilots mostly treat them like they are their areas designated for their training purposes. They are not looking out for VFR traffic they way they would outside of the MOA because they are in there for a purpose, to train. They may be 0-500kts, 100ft-18,000ft, heads down, heads behind them, writing notes, pulling 4Gs-9Gs. Many don't have TCAS are none that I'm aware of have ADS-B. Many don't have radar. I have had numerous close calls with VFR interlopers, and more times than that, I've had to knock off training and wait for VFR traffic to clear the area. More than once, training objectives for the entire flight weren't met because a VFR airplane wanted a shortcut. Doing the homework on transiting a MOA should be just as much a part of the flight as researching the WX and TFRs.

I feel better now, thanks for biting!
 
I had similar misconceptions about active MOAs, and when they were corrected in previous threads, I started flying around, below, or above the active ones. (And that became a lot easier to do when they started publishing NOTAMs for the ones that are active.)

In addition to the safety concerns, I don't want to spoil training sessions for those who are tasked with defending us, nor do I want to cause the taxpayer dollars for those sessions to be wasted.
 
Palmpilot said:
I had similar misconceptions about active MOAs, and when they were corrected in previous threads, I started flying around, below, or above the active ones. (And that became a lot easier to do when they started publishing NOTAMs for the ones that are active.)

In addition to the safety concerns, I don't want to spoil training sessions for those who are tasked with defending us, nor do I want to cause the taxpayer dollars for those sessions to be wasted.
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Your efforts are appreciated. Just to add a little perspective, there may be anywhere from 2-8 planes out there with the primary goal of getting one person a training flight or a checkride. Considering delays and cancellations for weather, maintenance, and scheduling requirements by the time you actually get out there you really want to get it done. It isn't terribly common, but one VFR flight passing through can put a stop to all that training and be the difference between completing and incompleting the flight, which may mean a re-fly.
 
Cooter143 said:
Your efforts are appreciated. Just to add a little perspective, there may be anywhere from 2-8 planes out there with the primary goal of getting one person a training flight or a checkride. Considering delays and cancellations for weather, maintenance, and scheduling requirements by the time you actually get out there you really want to get it done. It isn't terribly common, but one VFR flight passing through can put a stop to all that training and be the difference between completing and incompleting the flight, which may mean a re-fly.
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I don't think you'll find much sympathy on POA about training being affected or even many that avoid them while VFR. The activities and hazardous that occur in them have been discussed ad nauseam on POA. Everyone does their own risk assessment of transiting a MOA and personally, I consider the risk to be that of flying into an event like OSH or transiting a high trafficked alert area. Increased risk yes, but I support the freedom of civilian pilots to fly through them VFR...and I used to work MOA control.
 
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