Pilot’s Erratic Behavior Forces Flight to be Diverted

Henning said:
Pilot's union, that's why. Pilots don't want a record of what they do any more than they have to. The entire system is set up to allow a less than fully competent pilot through the system. I used to always put cameras in the wheelhouse which included the radar pic with a cheap 4 camera Sony system from Sam's Club. People don't want to be held accountable for what they do.
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You are a disturbed person. I'll agree with Rotor&Wing. Total, complete, BS. We are all now dumber for having read your post.
 
Captain said:
Cameras do not belong in the cockpit.
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Spoken like a true substandard pilot who doesn't want to be held accountable for their action, wants to maintain the ability to lie about circumstance, and wants to be able to violate standards at will.

Could you please explain to the ticket purchasing public, many of whom have to work under video surveillance, why you should be so free from scrutiny and behind locked doors. WTH, You could be up there smoking Spice and wigging out.
 
Henning said:
... The entire system is set up to allow a less than fully competent pilot through the system.
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I thought our omnipotent legislators in congress fixed that after the Colgan crash in Buffalo.

:confused:
 
Henning said:
Spoken like a true substandard pilot who doesn't want to be held accountable for their action, wants to maintain the ability to lie about circumstance, and wants to be able to violate standards at will.

Could you please explain to the ticket purchasing public, many of whom have to work under video surveillance, why you should be so free from scrutiny and behind locked doors. WTH, You could be up there smoking Spice and wigging out.
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I did explain and even gave an example of how CVR's have already been misused.

Could you explain why your comprehension is so lacking and how you manage to dress yourself? Flame away troll... Go ahead, incite and antagonize more.

You call me a 'substandard pilot'? That's fine. When the village idiot speaks no one listens. We sorta laugh.


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Authors note: This would mark the first time on this forum I have ever called someone a name (village idiot). I have been trying for some time but this henning guy will not quit. He has decided to attack me at every post and I will stand up to his bully tactics. Bring on the mods if you want, henning. I feel good about my posts when compared to yours. If I'm banned then so be it. I don't think I will, I think it is you who is on the wrong side of rational.

I'd be willing to still make a truce with you. You ignore my posts and I'll ignore yours. I doubt you'll accept as deep down I think you're a troubled person and are the true troll here. But, I'll reserve judgement on the chance you take me up on this offer.

I'll not wait for your answer. I'll just assume you've accepted. From this point on I'll disregard your posts and assume you'll do the same. If you choose to respond to this single post then that will be exempt. I'd ask you refrain from name calling and antagonistic comments.

We'll see how long this lasts...
 
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Henning said:
Pilot's union, that's why. Pilots don't want a record of what they do any more than they have to. The entire system is set up to allow a less than fully competent pilot through the system. I used to always put cameras in the wheelhouse which included the radar pic with a cheap 4 camera Sony system from Sam's Club. People don't want to be held accountable for what they do.
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What would a camera show that is not captured by the CVR and FDR? More specifically, what would it record that would be useful in an accident investigation?
 
Bob Noel said:
What would a camera show that is not captured by the CVR and FDR? More specifically, what would it record that would be useful in an accident investigation?
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Sleeping and drinking for 2, various other behavors and actions that would otherwise not be recorded. It would have been great to have vid of the cockpit of 447.
 
WalMart installs three times as many cameras in employee-only areas as they do in the customer areas. Look up sometime and count... then multiply by three, over a much smaller area.

They're on the "paranoid" end of that spectrum, though. (You should see their rules for working in their datacenter in Bentonville.)

Video is here to stay, and video in the cockpit is coming, whether Captain or anyone else likes it or not. Plenty of families of people in other professions had the option whether or not to "see the video", and there's protocols and procedures for how to handle such. Plant workers having accidents, car wrecks caught by road cameras, the list goes on and on.

Trying to keep cameras out of a profession where people put their lives in someone else's hands -- isn't going to last for long.

By the way, there are cameras on board some aircraft -- especially those without peep holes in the new-and-improved cockpit doors. And of course, the tail camera in the A380... etc.

It's virtually impossible to work in any kind of job where you deal with the general public and not be recorded these days. Pilots are prima-donnas in this regard.

The only thing keeping the public from demanding it is that they generally are confused by all the "stuff" in the cockpit and assume they'd never figure it out anyway.

If it didn't cost a fortune, some airline would have already done it by now and marketed it as a safety feature of their airline.

The pilot's Union would complain, but with no mobility within pilot's Unions or any way to measure pilots within the Unions or contracts that allow movement from company to company while retaining pay and status (usually what Unions are good at), they'd have no teeth.

It's coming. Just a matter of a need of a specific event where "proof" is needed beyond the FDR and CVR, and it'll happen seemingly overnight compared to other glacial speed changes in aviation.
 
Henning -v- Captain

It's been a long day for all of us. We all say things in the heat of the moment that can be interpreted wrong.

Let's all agree to disagree. Besides, I don't like competition for being the village idiot and a substandard pilot. I work very hard at both! :lol:

Just trying to lighten it up guys. :redface:




;)
 
matthammer said:
Meh. I'd like to slap whoever recorded this and posted it on the internet. Bad enough that the guy was having a mental breakdown, posting it on the internet for everyone to see is just cruel.
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Very well said Matt, I agree!

Rotor&Wing said:
Agreed.

Also let me add another thought. Right now we don't know what happened to the Captain. He may be suffering from something far more serious.

I have a parent right now who's been diagnosed with brain cancer. This is an individual who is bright and articulate, never had a problem with anything. Then one morning he wakes up, can't dress himself and can't even put on his glasses. And yes, you could even say "acting erratic". After getting him to the hospital and an MRI, lesions were found on the brain, and later a cranial biopsy proved stage 4 Glioblastoma multiforme.

Before jumping to conclusions such as "flipped out" or joking about "psych test" let's hope he doesn't have something far more serious, and deadly awaiting him.

Just my .02.
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Agreed as well and sorry to hear about your parent that's a raw deal

Geico266 said:
Henning -v- Captain

It's been a long day for all of us. We all say things in the heat of the moment that can be interpreted wrong.

Let's all agree to disagree. Besides, I don't like competition for being the village idiot and a substandard pilot. I work very hard at both! :lol:

Just trying to lighten it up guys. :redface:




;)
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Larry, Thankyou we needed that! Sometimes we should just take a step back.
 
This does it. I ain't flying on a flight numbered 191..... (check the history books for the references)

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Rotor&Wing said:
Agreed.

Also let me add another thought. Right now we don't know what happened to the Captain. He may be suffering from something far more serious.

I have a parent right now who's been diagnosed with brain cancer. This is an individual who is bright and articulate, never had a problem with anything. Then one morning he wakes up, can't dress himself and can't even put on his glasses. And yes, you could even say "acting erratic". After getting him to the hospital and an MRI, lesions were found on the brain, and later a cranial biopsy proved stage 4 Glioblastoma multiforme.

Before jumping to conclusions such as "flipped out" or joking about "psych test" let's hope he doesn't have something far more serious, and deadly awaiting him.

Just my .02.
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Sorry to hear about your dad R&W.

It is a good point. Anybody remember Eastern 401 (Everglades)? Post crash autopsy revealed the Captain had an un-diagnosed brain tumor. Had nothing to do with the crash itself, but the point being there was a guy with no symptoms who had been passing a first class medical every 6 months.

As another example, one of my best friends is getting medically retired from the Navy this week for a brain tumor. It is actually his second. He was first diagnosed and treated for one 10 years ago. Fought hard, survived the treatment and even got himself cleared to go back to sea duty. Went 9 or so years with no signs of remission, even with constant MRIs at least yearly. He had another MRI right before he went overseas to Japan and the doc told him he could consider himself cancer free. Just a few months later, he blacked out walking to the ship one day and some sailors found him convulsing on the pier. Got him to the hospital and they found that the cancer was back....with a vengeance. He is still fighting, but is in a real tough spot.

I would say that there is probably a whole lot more to this story than can be captured on a cell phone camera.


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Bob Noel said:
What would a camera show that is not captured by the CVR and FDR? More specifically, what would it record that would be useful in an accident investigation?
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A good point. Still, a camera might show some very subtle details that could add to an investigation. Having said that, I would totally be against a camera in the cockpit.

Take it with a grain of salt--I'm not a professional pilot.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Agreed.

Also let me add another thought. Right now we don't know what happened to the Captain. He may be suffering from something far more serious.

I have a parent right now who's been diagnosed with brain cancer. This is an individual who is bright and articulate, never had a problem with anything. Then one morning he wakes up, can't dress himself and can't even put on his glasses. And yes, you could even say "acting erratic". After getting him to the hospital and an MRI, lesions were found on the brain, and later a cranial biopsy proved stage 4 Glioblastoma multiforme.

Before jumping to conclusions such as "flipped out" or joking about "psych test" let's hope he doesn't have something far more serious, and deadly awaiting him.

Just my .02.
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Sorry about your dad, R&W. Here is an interesting article about behavioral changes which are caused by physical problems in the brain.

The Brain on Trial
 
I feel very sorry for this guy. This doesn't seem like something planned by a crackpot or someone suicidal/homicidal. I'm guessing undiagnosed mental or brain illness, or accidental dose or overdose of something. Flight crew members have snapped in the past, often with disastrous results, but the only ones I can recall involved a plan brewed during a slow descent into madness, triggered by career or personal problems.
Whatever the case, it's just a damn good thing nobody got hurt.\He's done with flying, I guess, but I hope he gets better.

As for cockpit cameras: they'd really only be of any use after the fact, just like CVRs. I sympathize with airline pilots who oppose them- this is not like surveillance in the corporate or retail world; where it's mostly about stealing, and very useful for such investigations. It's useless, really... they already have devices recording what they say, and all their control and FD inputs.
On the other hand, I toil under Big Brother's watchful eyes on a regular basis, and I know that nobody's going to see me scratch my butt unless something goes missing or gets broken and they think I may have been involved. They don't bother me at all, even though I hate having someone actually looking over my shoulder. Let me put it this way- I've never seen a camera watching LP or security personnel in the room where they're supposed to be watching the customers, contractors, and employees. ;)
If they're alone in that room (or just with some anonymous tech like myself) they are usually doing something else, like sleeping or web-surfing. :D

A camera would have done nothing to prevent this incident, or deal with it. Better to use that kind of money for external cameras, so the crew can see more of the aircraft!
 
Geez, it's a small world. My brother happened to be on that flight and saw the whole thing happen. My brother is not a pilot but enough of the aviation world has rubbed off on him through me. :D He saw the whole thing happen and the Captain was ranting and raving about Part 23 and 25 certification and flying over Lake Michigan until he was put in a headlock and subdued. :rofl:
 
COFlyBoy said:
Increase the hours required for an ATP, now! Think of the children!
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Sully Sullenberger gave this incident as a reason they shouldn't back down on the proposed increase in experience requirement for copilots on CNN.
 
MSPAviator said:
Geez, it's a small world. My brother happened to be on that flight and saw the whole thing happen. My brother is not a pilot but enough of the aviation world has rubbed off on him through me. :D He saw the whole thing happen and the Captain was ranting and raving about Part 23 and 25 certification and flying over Lake Michigan until he was put in a headlock and subdued. :rofl:
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Hey, that was super funny. No, really...we all laughed. A lot.
...really.


ummm, so...do you like going to the zoo? I like the elephants...
 
Woah -- Captain -- they let you out already? I kind of figured you'd be off the forum for a few weeks after your little incident on JetBlue today.
 
Nope, got my laptop in jail. That FO is gonna have hell to pay when I get out of here!!
 
I certainly hope the captain doesnt have any serious medical issues, but if its a purely pysch thing, I wonder how this will play out. especially with the recent flight attendant issue.

If more and more pilots/crew members start going "whackky", it probably won't help the AOPA/EAAs proposal to remove the medical for private pilots with conditions.
 
Henning said:
Sleeping and drinking for 2, various other behavors and actions that would otherwise not be recorded. It would have been great to have vid of the cockpit of 447.
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Sleeping would be recorded by the lack of, ya know, talking as well as the lack of control inputs.

Are you suggesting that both pilots would conspire to drink in the cockpit?

Do you think pilots are so stupid that they'd drink out of an easily recognizable alcohol bottle in plain sight of the camera?

The question was about actions not recorded and useful in an accident investigation.

So, why would it have been great to have the video of 447? What actions contributing to the accident do you think would have been recorded by video that wasn't captured by the CVR and FDR?
 
Everskyward said:
Sorry about your dad, R&W. Here is an interesting article about behavioral changes which are caused by physical problems in the brain.
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I really don't like bringing personal issues to light, but I felt those bashing the Captain on that flight should consider there could be more to the story.

It's likely that the JetBlue Captains career is over. While some here will cheer and make cruel jokes, remember that he probably has a family to support as well.

For his sake I hope whatever the problem is can be helped.
 
matthammer said:
Meh. I'd like to slap whoever recorded this and posted it on the internet. Bad enough that the guy was having a mental breakdown, posting it on the internet for everyone to see is just cruel.
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One advantage to posting the video is to stop any wild rumors before they get started, for example, claiming your brother was on the flight and that the captain was screaming about flying over lake Michigan.

Someone could claim the captain simply got up to use the bathroom when the FO locked him out for no good reason, causing him to get angry and pound on the door, and that the witnesses misinterpreted his actions. With this video, that won't happen.

If a video was posted two weeks ago showing a white/hispanic being attacked by a black teenager, and consequently shooting that teenager, I don't think there would be riots going on around the country right now.
 
Bob Noel said:
Sleeping would be recorded by the lack of, ya know, talking as well as the lack of control inputs.

So, why would it have been great to have the video of 447? What actions contributing to the accident do you think would have been recorded by video that wasn't captured by the CVR and FDR?
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Control inputs when the plane is on A/P from 200' to 200'? There isn't always chatter.

What I would have liked to seen of 447 is what the Rt side display (not recorded on FDR but the side connected to A/P 2) and other associated panels were displaying that had them so confused. If it happened once it can happen again if the ergonomics aren't addressed. Body language and seeing what people are looking at does a lot in those regards.
 
Bob Noel said:
Sleeping would be recorded by the lack of, ya know, talking as well as the lack of control inputs.

Are you suggesting that both pilots would conspire to drink in the cockpit?

Do you think pilots are so stupid that they'd drink out of an easily recognizable alcohol bottle in plain sight of the camera?

The question was about actions not recorded and useful in an accident investigation.

So, why would it have been great to have the video of 447? What actions contributing to the accident do you think would have been recorded by video that wasn't captured by the CVR and FDR?
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Some Flight Management Systems actually have an alarm feature that goes off when the system doesn't detect a crew input after some period of time. I'm sure the labels (429 speak for "digital word") for the status of that alarm are available on one of the output buses and can be recorded by airline configurable monitoring gear if they want it. The Engineering department can usually just set it up.

Airline continuous monitoring gear transmits all manner of reports over ACARS. Many times the reports contain data designed to meet contract arrangements for calculating crew time, flight time, there are take-off reports, cruise reports, climb reports, anything they need. It goes far beyond the 88 FDR parameters defined in FAR 121.

Not everything is transmitted either. There Data Acquisition units that typically feed the FDR and they have very large storage capacity (a lot of data in excess of 100 days). There are all sorts of bench PC compatible ways of obtaining and reviewing that data.

It takes a shift or so, we've been doing it recently to debug some reports.

It's not at the point where crew biometrics and crew core temp are recorded (that's an old Flight Test instrumentation gag line), but it's close.

ADS-B is going to pump a ton of data out for all to receive fairly soon too.

I personally don't believe anyone is well served by public lynching or character assassination. The public is pretty clueless. The media's need for titillation and tragedy cultivates popular disrespect for just about everything, well done or not.
 
I saw the CEO of Jetblue on the NBC today show this morning. I always like to note stupid reporter questions.
　
Matt Lauer asked something to the effect of this...

Matt Lauer: So did JetBlue know, or were than any warning signs that this could happen?
JB CEO: Uh, no Matt we were taken by surprise, we would have never expected this from this JB Captain.
　
I mean really, what does he think the CEO of Jet Blue is going to say. Maybe something like this would be better...

"Oh yeah Matt, I knew something was up with this guy, in fact I even warned President Obama and the FAA, but nobody would listen!"
　
It's interviews like this and the steady stream of Prince William and Kate pieces that keep me on the edge of my seat.


Fearless Tower said:
Sounds like Congress needs to get involved!
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LOL, I just shook my head at this one. Although I wouldn't be surprised one bit.
 
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Steve Foley said:
One advantage to posting the video is to stop any wild rumors before they get started, for example, claiming your brother was on the flight and that the captain was screaming about flying over lake Michigan.

Someone could claim the captain simply got up to use the bathroom when the FO locked him out for no good reason, causing him to get angry and pound on the door, and that the witnesses misinterpreted his actions. With this video, that won't happen.

If a video was posted two weeks ago showing a white/hispanic being attacked by a black teenager, and consequently shooting that teenager, I don't think there would be riots going on around the country right now.
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That wouldn't happen even if there weren't a video. There were plenty of reliable witnesses (unlike in the last example you gave). I still am perturbed by the fact that someone recorded it and posted it on youtube, for consumption by the hysteria driven masses. Just imagine if the pilot were someone from your family. How would you feel about the fact that a video of your family member, who was clearly in distress, was posted on the internet for entertainment? Because, lets face it, there's no reason for anyone outside those investigating the incident to watch this video other than to satisfy curiosity (a form of entertainment). I say it's callous and inappropriate.
 
Has anybody sussed out what the Captain was screaming about? As R&W pointed out the whole thing is sad, but it's sorta like driving by a crash...you just HAVE to look.

Anyway...anyone hear what the issue was?
 
Captain said:
Has anybody sussed out what the Captain was screaming about? As R&W pointed out the whole thing is sad, but it's sorta like driving by a crash...you just HAVE to look.

Anyway...anyone hear what the issue was?
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My guess is he was freaking out because he was locked out of the cockpit and being restrained by his passengers. An understandable reaction, even by someone with zero health issues.
 
I feel bad for the pilot. Unless he was on drugs of some kind (that he knowingly took, I might add), its an unfortunate way to end a career.
 
What did he do that caused the copilot to lock him out? I really know nothing about this. Maybe the copilot locked him out for no good reason and then he simply snapped over it. Hard to say without the CVRs...
 
Also, it's a requirement to ALWAYS have two people in the cockpit. Was there an FA up there with the FO and they BOTH locked him out?

I suppose you could argue that the Captain was really unhinged so the FO exercised 'emergency authority' and locked the skipper out. If that's the case then I guess the FO can over ride the rule to have two people in the cockpit.
 
From what I understand, the guy went nuts and then was locked out. Obviously the CVR will tell.

Once he was subdued by the rest of the crew and passengers, an off duty JB captain who happened to be riding as a passenger was able to make his way into the cockpit and worked with the FO. So there was a two man crew.
 
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