Person jumps from aircraft landing at RDU

Based on the information in the prelim, I'd say there is no smoking gun for suicide vs accident, and there probably will never be one. We will never understand what was going on in the mind of the young man.

But I find it funny that there are people here that refuse to acknowledge that someone could voluntarily commit suicide over this. That it is an unfathomable choice.

Having been involved in multiple suicide and attempted suicide calls (not myself), I can tell you that a rational person will never understand the reasoning behind a suicidal person. To most rational people, death is not an option. Suicide truly is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I have seen people that took their own life or at least attempted to for reasons that would astound you. One that sticks out in my mind, was graduating high school. That was his reason. He was so afraid of taking the next step in his life, he chose not to.
 
MFE said:
Admin should probably just close this thread until something factually definitive comes out. What a waste of server space.
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This is a (mostly) anonymous internet chat forum. With thread titles like "Do you believe in UFOs" (sorry Sac).

What does any of this have to do with factually definitive discussions or server space you aren't ponying up for??
 
eman1200 said:
1) something "factual" did come out


2)
View attachment 109745
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Thank you. Seems I've struck a nerve. I'll check back occasionally for laughs and see how many pages it's grown to with the same 5 theories stated ad nauseam and absolutely zero further closure on what actually happened. Have fun with Psychology Today Aviation Version.
 
MFE said:
Thank you. Seems I've struck a nerve. I'll check back occasionally for laughs and see how many pages it's grown to with the same 5 theories stated ad nauseam and absolutely zero further closure on what actually happened. Have fun with Psychology Today Aviation Version.
Click to expand...

speaking of a waste of space.....
 
MFE said:
Admin should probably just close this thread until something factually definitive comes out. What a waste of server space.
Click to expand...
Much can be said of most posts on this site.
 
MFE said:
Thank you. Seems I've struck a nerve. I'll check back occasionally for laughs and see how many pages it's grown to with the same 5 theories stated ad nauseam and absolutely zero further closure on what actually happened. Have fun with Psychology Today Aviation Version.
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Welcome to the internet.
 
Country Flier said:
Years ago we had a case come through my office (I'm a forensic pathologist) of a kid that had completed med school and was in residency to be a surgeon, but was diagnosed with essential tremor. I can think of so many jobs he could have held, but he chose suicide...I could see this kid reaching the same decision.
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I see it with my kids and everyone in their age group. They say they get anxiety, and are stressed out. Unfortunately they don’t have a clue what real stress is. Wait til they have to balance out their money, have kids, and just have every day problems we all have, but can’t avoid.
 
TommyG said:
I see it with my kids and everyone in their age group. They say they get anxiety, and are stressed out. Unfortunately they don’t have a clue what real stress is. Wait til they have to balance out their money, have kids, and just have every day problems we all have, but can’t avoid.
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Tell me about it. My daughter saw a therapist last summer because she said her childhood was traumatic from house rules...I asked what sort of rules, and she said having an enforced midnight curfew on weekends (at 17) was so unfair that she felt violated. I wish I was joking.
 
Country Flier said:
Tell me about it. My daughter saw a therapist last summer because she said her childhood was traumatic from house rules...I asked what sort of rules, and she said having an enforced midnight curfew on weekends (at 17) was so unfair that she felt violated. I wish I was joking.
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You were living in London during WWII at the time, right?

I think you should seek therapy for the trauma of having to be a caregiver to such a fragile being. I think I need therapy just for having to think about it. I mean, if you're that fragile, you shouldn't be allowed out during the day, let alone after midnight.
 
Country Flier said:
Tell me about it. My daughter saw a therapist last summer because she said her childhood was traumatic from house rules...I asked what sort of rules, and she said having an enforced midnight curfew on weekends (at 17) was so unfair that she felt violated. I wish I was joking.
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I’m sure the therapist put her straight. :rolleyes:
 
Country Flier said:
Tell me about it. My daughter saw a therapist last summer because she said her childhood was traumatic from house rules...I asked what sort of rules, and she said having an enforced midnight curfew on weekends (at 17) was so unfair that she felt violated. I wish I was joking.
Click to expand...

There is some credibility to the old saying, "Bad times create strong people. Strong people create good times. Good times create weak people. Weak people create bad times." I can guess where we are in that circle.
 
Country Flier said:
Tell me about it. My daughter saw a therapist last summer because she said her childhood was traumatic from house rules...I asked what sort of rules, and she said having an enforced midnight curfew on weekends (at 17) was so unfair that she felt violated. I wish I was joking.
Click to expand...
I wish you were making it up as well. Good luck to your daughter.
 
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midwestpa24 said:
…But I find it funny that there are people here that refuse to acknowledge that someone could voluntarily commit suicide over this. That it is an unfathomable choice...
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I haven’t bought any explanation for the death, primarily because the guy in the left seat, whether PIC or a check pilot, was ultimately responsible for ensuring the safe conduct of the flight, starting with pranging it in.
 
TCABM said:
I haven’t bought any explanation for the death, primarily because the guy in the left seat, whether PIC or a check pilot, was ultimately responsible for ensuring the safe conduct of the flight, starting with pranging it in.
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You are not wrong. However your argument has no effect on the thought process of this young man. I can tell you as a CFI, things can go from looking good to "oh $&@!" faster than you can react. It wouldn't be the first instructional flight to result in a bent airplane. This unfortunate young man was apparently at the controls when it happened, and appears to have been quite upset about it, regardless. While the PIC or check airman was the ultimate authority legally, that has no bearing on the mental state of the SIC or co-pilot.
 
Not a CFI myself, but understand. Still have trouble with PIC statement saying the approach was on target until below the treeline. So how could he let it go to an extreme in a very short interval of time, unless he really wasn't monitoring with a degree of caution suitable to the phase of flight? Also, did the aircraft had a latent fault of design or maintenance on the gear itself? I think I read something curious about the gear on CASA aircraft of that type. Maybe check pilot was thinking, 'this won't really hit that hard,' reasonably expecting the gear to absorb the impending impact.

Let's slap some more layers of swiss cheese on this most bizarre accident sandwich.
 
Piperonca said:
Also, did the aircraft had a latent fault of design or maintenance on the gear itself? I think I read something curious about the gear on CASA aircraft of that type. Maybe check pilot was thinking, 'this won't really hit that hard,' reasonably expecting the gear to absorb the impending impact.
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From my Post #245, a link to some concern about the CASA 212 MLG:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44650513
 
Piperonca said:
Not a CFI myself, but understand. Still have trouble with PIC statement saying the approach was on target until below the treeline. So how could he let it go to an extreme in a very short interval of time, unless he really wasn't monitoring with a degree of caution suitable to the phase of flight? Also, did the aircraft had a latent fault of design or maintenance on the gear itself? I think I read something curious about the gear on CASA aircraft of that type. Maybe check pilot was thinking, 'this won't really hit that hard,' reasonably expecting the gear to absorb the impending impact.

Let's slap some more layers of swiss cheese on this most bizarre accident sandwich.
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If you pull the power back to idle to soon on the casa it comes down very fast. The deceleration at idle is dramatic. Very plausible for everything to be fine and goto crap fast in that airplane, especially considering how easy it is to fly. Makes people complacent.
 
Capngrog said:
Click on the link provided, and read the Abstract. Any "synopsis" produced by me is sure to fall well short of the erudition and dramatic prose of the original document.
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Thanks! Chrome browser finally did the trick. I keep forgetting that I run Firefox locked down.
"Inspection procedures were determined, and an STC issued by the FAA. As a result, the gear no longer need to be retired when they reach their retirement time. Instead periodic inspections are being used to assess their structural life."
 
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midwestpa24 said:
But I find it funny that there are people here that refuse to acknowledge that someone could voluntarily commit suicide over this. That it is an unfathomable choice.

Having been involved in multiple suicide and attempted suicide calls (not myself), I can tell you that a rational person will never understand the reasoning behind a suicidal person. To most rational people, death is not an option. Suicide truly is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I have seen people that took their own life or at least attempted to for reasons that would astound you. One that sticks out in my mind, was graduating high school. That was his reason. He was so afraid of taking the next step in his life, he chose not to.
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Well said.
 
The variation in human ability to cope with stress is amazing.

I once had an employee run into my office visibly distraught. He said he had to go home right away. His partner was having a panic attack because his parents were visiting that weekend and the house was not cleaned yet. This same fellow was once in the Air Force for 2 days. They pulled him aside and said "this life is not for you."

As he exited the door, a friend walked in. He had been on Operation Eagle Claw, the 1980 failed mission to rescue American hostages in Tehran. He was one of roughly 100 hand-selected men whose boots touched Iranian soil that day. He wanted to give me a souvenir and tell me a story about the plan. Can't repeat the story except to say that it reinforces the incredible desperation of that mission.

Within the space of 5 minutes, I dealt with a man who could not handle the anxiety of a dirty house, and another man who volunteered to travel halfway around the world and sneak into a city populated with several million people who wanted to kill him on sight, and was fully prepared to take as many of them with him as he could.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
As he exited the door, a friend walked in. He had been on Operation Eagle Claw, the 1980 failed mission to rescue American hostages in Tehran. He was one of roughly 100 hand-selected men whose boots touched Iranian soil that day.
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Army got the mission after that. TF160 was the ultimate result. It’s an honor to be on the same planet with such men, and it was a career pinnacle to support them technically.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Based on the information in the prelim, I'd say there is no smoking gun for suicide vs accident, and there probably will never be one. We will never understand what was going on in the mind of the young man.

But I find it funny that there are people here that refuse to acknowledge that someone could voluntarily commit suicide over this.
Click to expand...

My 16 year old nephew committed suicide four years ago. It was so unexpected and unfathomable the Earth might as well have split in half.
 
Jim K said:
@SixPapaCharlie has been trying to sound the alarm, but people apparently still aren't getting it. Don't open the door in flight or you'll get sucked right out.
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It wasn't the co-pilot's door that was opened - it was the door in the back for the
parachute jumpers. The co-pilot purposely pulled the lever for that door - it's on
Yahoo news where the title says that "Crooks was visibly upset." The story goes
on to say that the pilot noticed that when Crooks went to the door in the back
he never grabbed the safety handle - he just "jumped" according to to what
the pilot said at the time of the accident.

Although I hate to say it, for those who say that suicide isn't a possibility, they don't
understand suicide. Why do some students at Cornell jump off the bridges over
the gorges near campus if they're upset with their academic performance or
whatever else could be troubling them? In the academic year of 2009 to
2010 alone six students jumped off the bridges and died.

Of course this is just speculation on my part - but here we have a nice young
man who loved aviation - it was his passion from birth - Yahoo states this:

<<Crooks had an “overriding passion” for aviation, “practically from birth,” according to his obituary. He read flight books at a young age and started taking flying lessons near his home in Connecticut.>>

In my view, there's a pretty good chance that he believed his flying career was over
when he broke the gear during that hard landing. He very well could have completely
freaked out and jumped. I've seen flying careers ruined due to hydroplaning off wet runways,
etc. This, unfortunately, is no different - some go into airplane sales, etc. and live
happy lives. Their lives are NOT over - I wish that there was time to counsel the young
Mr. Crooks about that.
 
Yes. I know of two who successfully committed suicide and three more who failed in the attempt (one of whom is a pilot and flight instructor that I held in high regard).
 
CaptainDoug said:
It wasn't the co-pilot's door that was opened - it was the door in the back for the
parachute jumpers. The co-pilot purposely pulled the lever for that door - it's on
Yahoo news where the title says that "Crooks was visibly upset." The story goes
on to say that the pilot noticed that when Crooks went to the door in the back
he never grabbed the safety handle - he just "jumped" according to to what
the pilot said at the time of the accident.

Although I hate to say it, for those who say that suicide isn't a possibility, they don't
understand suicide. Why do some students at Cornell jump off the bridges over
the gorges near campus if they're upset with their academic performance or
whatever else could be troubling them? In the academic year of 2009 to
2010 alone six students jumped off the bridges and died.

Of course this is just speculation on my part - but here we have a nice young
man who loved aviation - it was his passion from birth - Yahoo states this:

<<Crooks had an “overriding passion” for aviation, “practically from birth,” according to his obituary. He read flight books at a young age and started taking flying lessons near his home in Connecticut.>>

In my view, there's a pretty good chance that he believed his flying career was over
when he broke the gear during that hard landing. He very well could have completely
freaked out and jumped. I've seen flying careers ruined due to hydroplaning off wet runways,
etc. This, unfortunately, is no different - some go into airplane sales, etc. and live
happy lives. Their lives are NOT over - I wish that there was time to counsel the young
Mr. Crooks about that.
Click to expand...

#1, it's your first post and rightfully so, you didn't understand the joke behind what @Jim K said about opening a door and being sucked out.
#2, I honestly don't recall ANYONE saying suicide wasn't a possibility.....I think we all agree that it's just the oddest and probably rarest scenario, not that it's not possible. I mean sheesh, steingar bashes his mooney in almost every landing, he gets over it pretty quickly, as does 99.9999% of the rest of the aviation population. it's not that suicide isn't possible, it's just a "what the........but why?!?!" question most people are asking.
 
eman1200 said:
#1, it's your first post and rightfully so, you didn't understand the joke behind what @Jim K said about opening a door and being sucked out.
#2, I honestly don't recall ANYONE saying suicide wasn't a possibility.....I think we all agree that it's just the oddest and probably rarest scenario, not that it's not possible. I mean sheesh, steingar bashes his mooney in almost every landing, he gets over it pretty quickly, as does 99.9999% of the rest of the aviation population. it's not that suicide isn't possible, it's just a "what the........but why?!?!" question most people are asking.
Click to expand...

This nice young man wanted to make a career in aviation - it was his passion. I'm guessing that he wanted to be a corporate pilot or an airline pilot. With an accident / incident on his record like that - maybe he thought that his dream was over? As I said, I've seen people washed out due to running off runways. We'll never know for sure, but the PIC said that he jumped out the back.

PS: I've posted on aviation on other boards over the years - just not here.
 
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I was talking to a co-worker yesterday, who related how he was having problems on his first engineering job after college. He talked with his father, who had been a B-26 pilot who flew 29 missions over Germany. He said, "Yeah, I was having career problems too when I was your age... I was surrounded by people who were doing their best to KILL me!"

After that his problems didn't seem so big.
 
eman1200 said:
#1, it's your first post and rightfully so, you didn't understand the joke behind what @Jim K said about opening a door and being sucked out.
#2, I honestly don't recall ANYONE saying suicide wasn't a possibility.....I think we all agree that it's just the oddest and probably rarest scenario, not that it's not possible. I mean sheesh, steingar bashes his mooney in almost every landing, he gets over it pretty quickly, as does 99.9999% of the rest of the aviation population. it's not that suicide isn't possible, it's just a "what the........but why?!?!" question most people are asking.
Click to expand...

It was high on my suspicion list from the beginning, and after a few of the details came out “jumped toward a lake,” etc, it was pretty clear. I spend an inordinate amount of time getting into people’s mindsets, especially when I don’t share the same, and it just, sadly, was not a surprise. The questions that remain, based on some of the reports (and even moreso what’s not being said), are what kind of cultural/systemic issues were present to cause this young man to be so seemingly despondent over his mistake to do this.

We know the FAA’s approach to mental and physical health causes many of us to severely self-limit our own healthcare, but in this case, an examination of what’s going on at the corporate level and in the cockpit should be on the table.
 
CaptainDoug said:
It wasn't the co-pilot's door that was opened - it was the door in the back for the
parachute jumpers. The co-pilot purposely pulled the lever for that door - it's on
Yahoo news where the title says that "Crooks was visibly upset." The story goes
on to say that the pilot noticed that when Crooks went to the door in the back
he never grabbed the safety handle - he just "jumped" according to to what
the pilot said at the time of the accident.

Although I hate to say it, for those who say that suicide isn't a possibility, they don't
understand suicide. Why do some students at Cornell jump off the bridges over
the gorges near campus if they're upset with their academic performance or
whatever else could be troubling them? In the academic year of 2009 to
2010 alone six students jumped off the bridges and died.

Of course this is just speculation on my part - but here we have a nice young
man who loved aviation - it was his passion from birth - Yahoo states this:

<<Crooks had an “overriding passion” for aviation, “practically from birth,” according to his obituary. He read flight books at a young age and started taking flying lessons near his home in Connecticut.>>

In my view, there's a pretty good chance that he believed his flying career was over
when he broke the gear during that hard landing. He very well could have completely
freaked out and jumped. I've seen flying careers ruined due to hydroplaning off wet runways,
etc. This, unfortunately, is no different - some go into airplane sales, etc. and live
happy lives. Their lives are NOT over - I wish that there was time to counsel the young
Mr. Crooks about that.
Click to expand...
Sales. F that noise. He could have continued his career with hardly a bump.
 
I wonder what the PIC was really saying to the co-pilot after the right MLG departed the airplane. Was it along the lines of: "Gee, don't worry, it could happen to anybody" or more like "Why you stupid, ham-fisted shot, you broke a perfectly good airplane, and I and my bosses will see that you never work in aviation again"? Maybe something in between, or perhaps just an icy silence. My guess is that we'll never know.
 
Capngrog said:
I wonder what the PIC was really saying to the co-pilot after the right MLG departed the airplane. Was it along the lines of: "Gee, don't worry, it could happen to anybody" or more like "Why you stupid, ham-fisted shot, you broke a perfectly good airplane, and I and my bosses will see that you never work in aviation again"? Maybe something in between, or perhaps just an icy silence. My guess is that we'll never know.
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Whatever that message was, you can expect it was on repeat for twenty minutes or so. Probably wasn't soothing, judging by the events of that day.
 
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