Overlapping airspace

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Skim94

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skim
Hello,
I'm having some confusion with overlapping airspaces. If I am flying from the south to kcfo (colorado air and space) where the airspace is from surface up to but not including 8,000 feet, this overlaps the class bravo airspace of KDEN (Denver international) as the bravo shelf starts at 7000 up to 12,000 feet. If i were to fly from the south at say 7200ft expecting to go into the delta airspace even though the bravo is overlying the delta, will I have to get bravo clearance from KDEN even though the class delta of KCFO airspace extends to 7999ft? Or if I am talking to KCFO tower will I be able to fly through that section where there is overlap?
Image link below of sectional chart.
https://pasteboard.co/JkR48Fy.jpg
 

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If the bravo starts at 7000, then you can’t fly into it above 7000 without a clearance.
 
Skim94 said:
Hello,
I'm having some confusion with overlapping airspaces. If I am flying from the south to kcfo (colorado air and space) where the airspace is from surface up to but not including 8,000 feet, this overlaps the class bravo airspace of KDEN (Denver international) as the bravo shelf starts at 7000 up to 12,000 feet. If i were to fly from the south at say 7200ft expecting to go into the delta airspace even though the bravo is overlying the delta, will I have to get bravo clearance from KDEN even though the class delta of KCFO airspace extends to 7999ft? Or if I am talking to KCFO tower will I be able to fly through that section where there is overlap?
Image link below of sectional chart.
https://pasteboard.co/JkR48Fy.jpg
Click to expand...

You need a clearance. There is only that little crescent shaped piece to the East side of the KCFO D that functionally goes up to 8000.

3−1−3. Hierarchy of Overlapping Airspace
Designations
a. When overlapping airspace designations apply
to the same airspace, the operating rules associated
with the more restrictive airspace designation apply.
b. For the purpose of clarification:
1. Class A airspace is more restrictive than
Class B, Class C, Class D, Class E, or Class G
airspace;
2. Class B airspace is more restrictive than
Class C, Class D, Class E, or Class G airspace;
3. Class C airspace is more restrictive than
Class D, Class E, or Class G airspace;
4. Class D airspace is more restrictive than
Class E or Class G airspace; and
5. Class E is more restrictive than Class G
airspace.
 
Easiest thing is just to get flight following. Be mindful of your bravo clearance, but that should keep you safe.
 
I have never noticed this before or flown into such a situation. I wonder what the rationale is, rather than just having them be disjoint?
 
You'll need to be at pattern altitude (6500') by there or pretty soon after - so going in won't be a problem.
Going out, if you have a good climbing airplane, it might be an issue - but just tell clearance what you want then get your class B clearance when switching to departure
 
First off, overlapping types of controlled airspace is NOT supposed to happen. The FAA promised that this nonsense was going away with the slavish adoption of the ICAO bovine excrement. They similarly promised that uncharted airspace like the old Airport Traffic Areas would no longer occur. Unfortunately, excrement happens, especially in that controlled airspace establishment and modification requires a rulemaking activity and that results in delays between the letter of the law and reality.
For such reasons, we have 91.126(d) and 91.127(c) for towers in uncontrolled airspace, and 71.9 (overlapping airspace) to handle the discrepancies.

In your example, you have a cartographic anomaly rather than overlapping airspace. The part of the CFO class D that is under the 7000-foot shelf should be depicted at [-70] and the rest as [-80]. The rulemaking to establish the class D at the Front Range Airport (as CFO was called back then, FTG) explicitly excludes the area inside the DEN class B.

https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...lass-d-airspace-front-range-airport-denver-co
 
flyingron said:
First off, overlapping types of controlled airspace is NOT supposed to happen.
Click to expand...
I think the issue is that there are areas where the airspace appears to overlap due to the charting conventions.

For example, a Class B or C shelf may encroach on a Class D area causing the top of the Class D airspace to be lower in the overlap area. Chart congestion may prevent the [-XX] notation leaving us to rely on us knowing that the Class B/C airspace supersedes the Class D airspace in the overlap area.
 
That's what I said. I posted the supporting documents to show that the FTG/CFO class D specifically excludes the overlying class B. There's no superseding going on. The illusion that they overlap is purely because they omit the [-70] for most of the class D (the [-80] applies only to the tiny sliver that is under the 8000' floor).
 
Looking at FTG, it would appear that it would be almost impossible to depart runway 26 without a bravo clearance in some airplanes. How many have flown into and out of this airport? Is it standard to get the Bravo clearance in these types of situations? I am just curious.
 
flyingron said:
That's what I said. I posted the supporting documents to show that the FTG/CFO class D specifically excludes the overlying class B. There's no superseding going on. The illusion that they overlap is purely because they omit the [-70] for most of the class D (the [-80] applies only to the tiny sliver that is under the 8000' floor).
Click to expand...

And the -65 for the Southwest corner. Checkout KPAO and KNUQ. What do you think about those?
 
Navigating around KCFO (KFTG) is not as daunting as it might seem. IFR traffic gets runway 8 or 17. VFR traffic departing 26 has no trouble with the limited space. Stay out of the Bravo and call the tower at the appropriate time is all you need to do.
 
Walt said:
Navigating around KCFO (KFTG) is not as daunting as it might seem. IFR traffic gets runway 8 or 17. VFR traffic departing 26 has no trouble with the limited space. Stay out of the Bravo and call the tower at the appropriate time is all you need to do.
Click to expand...

Just a quick left turn heading west on 26 even if you are not that high I assume works okay?
 
luvflyin said:
And the -65 for the Southwest corner. Checkout KPAO and KNUQ. What do you think about those?
Click to expand...


Moffet Federal (and the Moffet Field before that): "That airspace extending upward from the surface to but not including 1,500 feet MSL within a 4.3-mile radius of Moffett Federal AFLD, excluding that airspace within the San Jose, CA, Class C airspace area and excluding the portion within the Palo Alto of Santa Clara County Airport, CA, Class D airspace"

Palo Alto: That airspace extending upward from the surface to but not
including 2,500 feet MSL within a 4.3-mile radius of Moffett Federal
Airfield, excluding that airspace within the San Jose, CA, Class C
airspace area, and excluding the portion within the Palo Alto of
Santa Clara County Airport, CA, Class D airspace area during the
specific dates and times it is effective

So, the airspaces do not overlap, not with the Class C and not with each other. Again, it's a quirk in the charting that makes them appear to overlap. They do not.
 
flyingron said:
Moffet Federal (and the Moffet Field before that): "That airspace extending upward from the surface to but not including 1,500 feet MSL within a 4.3-mile radius of Moffett Federal AFLD, excluding that airspace within the San Jose, CA, Class C airspace area and excluding the portion within the Palo Alto of Santa Clara County Airport, CA, Class D airspace"

Palo Alto: That airspace extending upward from the surface to but not
including 2,500 feet MSL within a 4.3-mile radius of Moffett Federal
Airfield, excluding that airspace within the San Jose, CA, Class C
airspace area, and excluding the portion within the Palo Alto of
Santa Clara County Airport, CA, Class D airspace area during the
specific dates and times it is effective

So, the airspaces do not overlap, not with the Class C and not with each other. Again, it's a quirk in the charting that makes them appear to overlap. They do not.
Click to expand...

Right, they don’t. I was pointing out that the PAO D Is ‘sectorized’ on the Chart, the 20 piece to the west and the -15 piece to the right. So there’s no need to apply the ‘hierarchy’ rule there. There’s just a little piece of the SCJ C 40/15 sector that would apply anyway. There are some D’s with 3 or maybe even more pieces that could really clutter the Chart if done this way. KCFO, where this thread started, would need 3. So there is an argument for just charting it the way it is and pilots applying the hierarchy rule. It’s pretty simple to do.
Back to PAO and NUQ. By the 7400.11 descriptions, the NUQ D actually has a piece over the top of PAO’s. Go to a point about 1 mile South of PAO and it goes like this: surface to 2000, PAO D. Then up to but not including 2500, NUQ D. Above that it’s just E up to 18,000. No way to see that on the Chart. I don’t think it was intended. Just that someone wasn’t paying attention to detail when writing it. Anyway, ain’t no thing, pretty much just a trivia question at the end of the day.
 
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