Oshkosh VFR arrival: Choosing between the 90 knot and the 135 knot arrival

Let'sgoflying! said:
Think about what type of a/c is in each group. They are separating the fast movers from the slower ones. Try to get with the correct group. The fast ones will be twins and high performing singles Bonanzas, Mooneys, 210s, Comanches. The other group is cubs, 140s/150s,172s, champs, a lot of Pipers but not all.
Personally, I would rather be at 2.0vso when maneuvering for traffic than at 1.3vso so if you qualify for the fast group I would go with them. Better over-the-nose visibility as well, than if you are dogging along at a high aoa to stay with the slow group.
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Dave, all of the planes you mention are capable of 90 knots and should be flying the low arrival. The high arrival is for planes who are unable to maintain 90 knots, not planes who are able to maintain 135. 140's, 150's, 172's are all able to do 90 knots as well. Champs and Cubs can at least come pretty close, but the proportion of slower airplanes is very low, to the point they don't generally cause a problem IME. Even in the long-nose, poor-forward-visibility Mooney, I have no problem seeing straight ahead at 90 knots, even without flaps.

The high arrival is for King Airs, etc that can't safely fly 90 knots. Planes that can't safely fly 135 knots should do the turbine/warbird arrival.
 
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Hawka said:
Oh I know what kind of plane I fly ;)

You don't however and it is not relevant to the conversation.
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Why would the type of airplane you fly be relevant to a question about what airspeed you should fly?

If you were a pilot, you'd know the answer to that question.
 
Hawka said:
Okay thanks that was my biggest concern dealing with slow planes. Sounds like that was exaggerated to me so I'm not going to worry about it.
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Well, there's plenty of "there I was" stories about Oshkosh among pilots, because everyone wants one. Nobody wants to tell you about their completely uneventful arrival. :rofl:

There may be some surprises, and you should be ready for them, but they're relatively infrequent. In the couple dozen times I've done it, I've had exactly one "interesting" approach. I was #4 for runway 9 behind a T-6 and a B-25 in left traffic from the warbird arrival and a Cessna 172 in front of me over the railroad tracks from Fisk, when a Luscombe who wasn't talking to anybody decided to land on 27. Then, when the Luscombe was down and a bunch of people started running towards him to tell him to get the hell off the runway, he firewalled the throttle and took off into the flow of arriving traffic. (Idiot.) The T-6 and B-25 had to go around, the 172 and myself just kept it coming and landed, the warbirds came back in a minute later. No biggie.

In the unlikely event you do end up getting behind a slowpoke, the procedure - Which should be in the NOTAM - Is to just peel off and go back to RIPON. No whining, you just get to fly a little bit more. ;) But I've never seen or heard anyone do that. Another option is probably just to make a 360 at Ripon to give yourself more spacing before the slow guy, and they'll almost certainly be splitting you up at Fisk, so nothing to worry about.

Have a safe and enjoyable flight!
 
One note: a 360 turn at Ripon could be a VERY exciting maneuver. I don't recommended it.

If you need to do a spacing turn, peel off and get a few miles away first, please.

Regarding getting stuck behind slow traffic, it happened to us once, in the late 90s. ("Back before the turn of the century" sounds so much more authoritative! lol).

We were flying our Warrior, and got stuck behind a Champ who misread the NOTAM (or his ASI) as 90 mph -- and he was apparently barely able to do even that.

We just kept getting slower and slower to maintain spacing, until I dropped first one, then two notches of flaps. We eventually did damned near the whole approach at 75 knots, which worked out fine. We certainly had a great, slow-motion view of Wittman Field for photography.

My biggest fear was being over-run from behind, but, as always, it worked out.

Just relax. The FISK approach is about as simple as it gets.
 
JimNtexas said:
Why would the type of airplane you fly be relevant to a question about what airspeed you should fly?

If you were a pilot, you'd know the answer to that question.
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Hello Jim in Texas, how is your day going? Mine is going pretty well. For some reason you've chosen to adopt a fairly aggressive tone with me. I'm not sure why. Well anyway, as I mentioned I touch down in my plane at 85 knots. That is all you need to know. If you like you can do the 1.3Vso computation. The point is yes I can fly at 90 knots in the pattern but not at 80 knots. Maybe Henning can, but my level of expertise is not there to do so safely at the bottom part of the envelope.

I'm now happy to do the 90 knot arrival after hearing from everyone here that I don't need to worry about swarms of slow planes getting in the way.

Hope you have a great day.
 
Jay Honeck said:
One note: a 360 turn at Ripon could be a VERY exciting maneuver. I don't recommended it.

If you need to do a spacing turn, peel off and get a few miles away first, please.

Regarding getting stuck behind slow traffic, it happened to us once, in the late 90s. ("Back before the turn of the century" sounds so much more authoritative! lol).

We were flying our Warrior, and got stuck behind a Champ who misread the NOTAM (or his ASI) as 90 mph -- and he was apparently barely able to do even that.

We just kept getting slower and slower to maintain spacing, until I dropped first one, then two notches of flaps. We eventually did damned near the whole approach at 75 knots, which worked out fine. We certainly had a great, slow-motion view of Wittman Field for photography.

My biggest fear was being over-run from behind, but, as always, it worked out.

Just relax. The FISK approach is about as simple as it gets.
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Thanks Jay, hope to meet you this year.
 
flytime said:
Very funny :lol:

But I was there that Friday, sitting in the grass with my dad next to 9/27 with a radio tuned in to the mayhem. 1974. I was just 9 years old. It was unbelievable! Would love to hear the audio if it exists.
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Don't recall seeing you there, but it was a while ago. ;)

I wasn't listening to a radio, but I remember the line of landing lights stretching out to the east for miles and miles.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Don't recall seeing you there, but it was a while ago. ;)

I wasn't listening to a radio, but I remember the line of landing lights stretching out to the east for miles and miles.
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At my first Oshkosh (1983) the WWII guys were still dominant, and were there in large numbers. In fact, they were not much older than I am now. *shudder*

Anyway, Mary and I had ridden our old (then, new)
Kawasaki 750 in to Oshkosh (the city, not the event), and were camped in a friend's back yard. We walked to a bridge somewhere East of Wittman Field, and stood in awe as an endless stream of aircraft landed before us on Rwy 27. We had never seen anything like it, and it was incredibly exciting to watch!

We were too poor to actually go on the field for more than one day, so a couple of days we snuck in over by the Oshkosh Truck plant (on the East side of Rwy 18/36) and watched the show from there.

Never in my wildest dreams did I think that we would ever join that group. It was just too far out of the realm of possibility -- or so I believed.
 
Hey, folks, not to be a wet blanket but ...

There is a dedicated group for the Oshkosh show on this board, with people who have actually GONE to Oshkosh, BEEN to Oshkosh, and a few who LIVE in Oshkosh. Maybe we take this over to that group? Yes? Please?


Jim
 
weirdjim said:
Hey, folks, not to be a wet blanket but ...

There is a dedicated group for the Oshkosh show on this board, with people who have actually GONE to Oshkosh, BEEN to Oshkosh, and a few who LIVE in Oshkosh. Maybe we take this over to that group? Yes? Please?


Jim
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:confused: Why for?:dunno: Plenty of people who have been to OSH have answered here. This board has never been particularly stuck with what post is allowed in what forum upside Spin Zone material. Don't like a thread, don't click on it.
 
ChrisK said:
This is all a huge 6PC scam!!!

Note that previously 6PC said you were a real person. Now Hawka is also saying you're a real person.

You're all 6PC!
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It's true. There is no hocky, hacky. It's all me the whole time.
just to prove it I will resign that username and there will be no more posts on this board ever from that account.
 
ChrisK said:
This is all a huge 6PC scam!!!

Note that previously 6PC said you were a real person. Now Hawka is also saying you're a real person.

You're all 6PC!
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:yeahthat:
(edit) I didn't see that he owned up to it.
 
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I was kidding.
That was my (possibly lame) attempt to make Ho(a)cky go away.

I'm using only 1 account on this board. (Was 6PC, changed to Bryan)

I am not going to waste people's time trolling. I blab so much on this board already about Flying, Gardening, and other nonsense anyway.

I've never read the KOSH NOTAM and have no idea what / where Fisk is and no interest.
Trolling is not really my style. I am more of a "try to get laughs" sort of attention wh0re. That whole Andy Kaufman type humor where nobody gets the joke and gets irritated at the joker is not my thing.

Based on a PM I received, I believe we have seen the last of Hacky as it was indicated to me that it makes me look more like I am him (her).

I assume he(she) will resurface in a month or two as Hucky or Fplemming or some other variation and we will all once again get a good bit of fun answering questions about when it is legal for a solo student pilot to fly through a TFR if they turn off their transponder.


^ that's all true
-Bryan
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I was kidding.
That was my (possibly lame) attempt to make Ho(a)cky go away.

I'm using only 1 account on this board. (Was 6PC, changed to Bryan)

I am not going to waste people's time trolling. I blab so much on this board already about Flying, Gardening, and other nonsense anyway.

I've never read the KOSH NOTAM and have no idea what / where Fisk is and no interest.
Trolling is not really my style. I am more of a "try to get laughs" sort of attention wh0re. That whole Andy Kaufman type humor where nobody gets the joke and gets irritated at the joker is not my thing.

Based on a PM I received, I believe we have seen the last of Hacky as it was indicated to me that it makes me look more like I am him (her).

I assume he(she) will resurface in a month or two as Hucky or Fplemming or some other variation and we will all once again get a good bit of fun answering questions about when it is legal for a solo student pilot to fly through a TFR if they turn off their transponder.


^ that's all true
-Bryan
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What?

:dunno:

What I have done that would be considered trolling in any sense of the word? I asked advice on how to choose between the two arrivals.

:rolleyes2:
 
I'm not Hocky by the way. Yeah I'm being a smartass choosing a name similar to his. Okay I'm changing my name to SickPuppyCharlie. Does that now mean I'm 6PC?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Blasphemy!!!

Thou shalt make thy pilgrimage to Wisconsin in the seventh month of the year and atone for thy sins. :D
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I may go one day but ~200 hours in to my PPL and DAL to OSH at 95 kts...

It's all a little over my head right now.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
What type of plane do you fly?
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TBM850 there you made me say it. Congratulations. Soon some testosterone infused chest thumping type will be along saying he has no problems flying one at 80 knots in the pattern.

Brace yourself.

:D
 
Hawka said:
TBM850 there you made me say it. Congratulations. Soon some testosterone infused chest thumping type will be along saying he has no problems flying one at 80 knots in the pattern.

Brace yourself.

:D
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Do you have a hard-surface spot at Basler's reserved? Or are you going to man up and park that whiny thing out with all of us unwashed masses on the sacred turf of the North 40 camping area?
;)
 
Jay Honeck said:
Do you have a hard-surface spot at Basler's reserved? Or are you going to man up and park that whiny thing out with all of us unwashed masses on the sacred turf of the North 40 camping area?
;)
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I'm camping of course! Wouldn't do it any other way. If there is too much rain and the field is too soft I'll go as close as I can to get a hard surface parking spot then drive in and camp anyway.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I may go one day but ~200 hours in to my PPL and DAL to OSH at 95 kts...

It's all a little over my head right now.
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I suggest you talk to Spike... He usually knows someone who's going to the show from your area and often manages to snag a ride, too. Or maybe you know someone yourself. C'mon up! Once you see someone else do it, you'll be wondering why you didn't do it yourself. :yes: Plus, seeing it done will give you more confidence for next year when you come up yourself! :thumbsup:
 
Jay Honeck said:
So, I would think the 135 knot FISK approach is logically limited to King Airs, Cheyennes, and jets.
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How about a guy coming in a P-51 or a B-25 that want to fly the arrival?

That said, I'd be at 135 in my current ride, but somehow I don't think my employer would let me take a 1900 up to OSH for fun.
 
I'm not reading the NOTAM right or finding it I guess.

If you have to peel off between RIPON and FISK, do you go right or left to circle back to RIPON?

The holding patterns are out to the left.
 
txflyer said:
I'm not reading the NOTAM right or finding it I guess.

If you have to peel off between RIPON and FISK, do you go right or left to circle back to RIPON?

The holding patterns are out to the left.
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From page 4 of the NOTAM: "If you have to “S-turn” to follow an aircraft, break off the procedure; return to Ripon; and follow another aircraft of similar speed and altitude."

Whether you break right or left is unspecified, and between Ripon and Fisk it shouldn't matter much, there are pluses and minuses to each. The people you'll conflict with while doing so are departures. They should be staying down at 1300 until clear of the OSH D-space, but should not be at 1800 near the arrival if they're paying attention to the departure procedure.
 
weirdjim said:
Hey, folks, not to be a wet blanket but ...
There is a dedicated group for the Oshkosh show on this board, with people who have actually GONE to Oshkosh, BEEN to Oshkosh, and a few who LIVE in Oshkosh. Maybe we take this over to that group? Yes? Please?
Jim
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GONE to Osh 6X
BEEN to Osh both vfr and ifr
LIVED at Osh many days, always in a tent, even through the inevitable storms.
First Osh visit in the late 70's
Made it from here (purt'near the Mexican border) twice in a C150, once in the Wooden Wonder.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
From page 4 of the NOTAM: "If you have to “S-turn” to follow an aircraft, break off the procedure; return to Ripon; and follow another aircraft of similar speed and altitude."

Whether you break right or left is unspecified, and between Ripon and Fisk it shouldn't matter much, there are pluses and minuses to each. The people you'll conflict with while doing so are departures. They should be staying down at 1300 until clear of the OSH D-space, but should not be at 1800 near the arrival if they're paying attention to the departure procedure.
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Hmmmm.... I "think" FISK is outside the Delta airspace....:dunno:...

I know when I depart, I stay below 1300 till clearing the Delta and then climb right up to 12,500 in about 4 minutes to head home.. It keeps me clear of incoming idiots...:idea:..........:yes:
 
Jay Honeck said:
Is there a prop-driven plane that can't be flown safely at 90 knots?
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Piper J-3 Cub can't go that fast in level flight. DC-7 can't go that slow without falling out of the sky. Both are piston-powered, too. I'd run out of fingers and toes quickly trying to count all the others which could be added to those lists.
 
Ron Levy said:
Piper J-3 Cub can't go that fast in level flight. DC-7 can't go that slow without falling out of the sky. Both are piston-powered, too. I'd run out of fingers and toes quickly trying to count all the others which could be added to those lists.
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Based on what we know from the description, either of those make poor guesses. However, he's already said TBM850.


and then there were crickets on that question.
 
N801BH said:
Hmmmm.... I "think" FISK is outside the Delta airspace....:dunno:...

I know when I depart, I stay below 1300 till clearing the Delta and then climb right up to 12,500 in about 4 minutes to head home.. It keeps me clear of incoming idiots...:idea:..........:yes:
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Dang. You get 2800 fpm out of that Zenith up to 12.5? :eek:



Another newbie question: :rolleyes:

When you get to Ripon, do you ride 120.7 all the way to touchdown? Or do they give you a frequency change at Pickett/Fisk and a wing wag?
 
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Jaybird180 said:
Based on what we know from the description, either of those make poor guesses. However, he's already said TBM850.
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I was answering Jay's question, and Jay didn't say anything about a TBM850. That said, while I've never flown a TBM850 or even read its flight manual, I suspect that it is not a very happy bird at 90 knots other than in the flare. I suspect that a TBM expert would advise using the 135-knot arrival in one of those, and I also suspect it would be very happy with that profile.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I may go one day but ~200 hours in to my PPL and DAL to OSH at 95 kts...

It's all a little over my head right now.
Click to expand...

Not so much to it really. Eyes outside the cockpit stick and rudder kid of flying. I had 93 hours when I flew to my first Oshkosh.
 
Jay Honeck said:
We were flying our Warrior, and got stuck behind a Champ who misread the NOTAM (or his ASI) as 90 mph -- and he was apparently barely able to do even that.
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Given that a 65 (or 75) hp Champ will only go about 85-90 mph, there wasn't much the guy could have done, regardless of how many times he read the NOTAM.
 

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