Oshkosh VFR arrival: Choosing between the 90 knot and the 135 knot arrival

JHW said:
even in a baron I hang out the flaps and do the lower 90 kt arrival. The problem with the 135kt is that at some point you have to descend into the herd with no downward visibility. I'd rather be a part of the herd from the start.
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Good info. So have you ever had problems with the traffic being slower than 90 knots? I'm probably being overly cautious but was concerned it might be going slower than 90.
 
Hawka said:
Good info. So have you ever had problems with the traffic being slower than 90 knots? I'm probably being overly cautious but was concerned it might be going slower than 90.
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I have not done the trip that many times, only 6 or 7, but honestly i found the arrival to be very well orchestrated, people look after each other and it goes very smoothly
 
Since the OP doesn't know what kind of airplane he flies its impossible to take him seriously.
 
JimNtexas said:
Since the OP doesn't know what kind of airplane he flies its impossible to take him seriously.
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Oh I know what kind of plane I fly ;)

You don't however and it is not relevant to the conversation.
 
Is it a wright flyer?
if so, I know I guy you should talk to.
 
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Hocky...er, I mean Hacky, flies a Champ. With retractable gear. A little heavy, but she'll do 136 knots easy :D
 
I know I probably intimidate you that is why I choose to not reveal some of my more impressive details.

I am prepared to be your leader, if called upon.
 
Hawka said:
From the website:

Retractable gear aircraft

If you are flying a retractable gear aircraft, ensure that you extend your gear as soon as feasible!

The controllers at Fisk get anxious if they see an aircraft passing overhead Fisk without the landing gear down. Approaching Fisk may be a good time to "drop the gear" if you have not already done so!

but the NOTAM says

If possible, lower your landing gear prior
to reaching Fisk.

So I stand corrected it doesn't say I have to.
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Sounds like you have the information you wanted/needed. Fly safe, keep your head on a swivel, and enjoy the show.
 
Think about what type of a/c is in each group. They are separating the fast movers from the slower ones. Try to get with the correct group. The fast ones will be twins and high performing singles Bonanzas, Mooneys, 210s, Comanches. The other group is cubs, 140s/150s,172s, champs, a lot of Pipers but not all.
Personally, I would rather be at 2.0vso when maneuvering for traffic than at 1.3vso so if you qualify for the fast group I would go with them. Better over-the-nose visibility as well, than if you are dogging along at a high aoa to stay with the slow group.
 
Thanks, Jim, for that MP3. Mary and I just listened to it, over a beer at the hangar, and I had to turn it off, as I was getting sweaty palms and anxious.

Worse, its Mary's turn to fly in this year, and she was really starting to get wound up. lol

Man, I'm glad they invented the FISK approach. 1974 sounds like a disaster.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Man, I'm glad they invented the FISK approach. 1974 sounds like a disaster.
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Actually, Jay, it was quite well orchestrated. We all knew there was a problem and we all did our best to solve it with OSH ATC doing a magnificent job.

It is nothing like some beer-swigging @$$#0le in his Bonanza cutting into the line between Ripon and Fisk thinking that his exhaust doesn't stink and cobbing up the whole procedure because, after all, he is a BONANZA pilot. More than once had to do evasive procedures for this damned fool.

Jim

.
.
 
weirdjim said:
Actually, Jay, it was quite well orchestrated. We all knew there was a problem and we all did our best to solve it with OSH ATC doing a magnificent job.

It is nothing like some beer-swigging @$$#0le in his Bonanza cutting into the line between Ripon and Fisk thinking that his exhaust doesn't stink and cobbing up the whole procedure because, after all, he is a BONANZA pilot. More than once had to do evasive procedures for this damned fool.

Jim

.
.
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Hey, Mary followed that same Bo pilot back in 2006-ish!

Actually, it was a Debonair. At FISK we were assigned to Rwy 18, and told to follow the Beech ahead of us. Mary did as she was told, as the Deb turned Eastbound down the roadway toward the runway.

That's when things got interesting. For whatever reason, the Deb pilot decided to not listen to the controller, and sort of went on a random journey that took him directly over the tower. Our directions were to stay SOUTH of the tower and do a right base for Rwy 18, but this doofus aimed AT the tower, and crossed over the runway.

The controller was late to pick up this error, and this was Mary's first flight in as PIC. She asked me "What should I do?", and I said "We were told to follow him -- so follow him!" So she did.

Finally, as the Deb was about to cross over the tower, the controller realized WTF was going on. He yelled at the Deb pilot, ordering him to do a descending LEFT turn to land on Rwy 18, and told Mary to follow him in.

Wow, that was exciting. There we were, in our loaded-to-the-gills Cherokee 235, in close trail with a Deb, doing an incredibly tight, 270 degree descending left turn to land, on a 90 degree day -- and, BTW, stay SOUTH of the tower. The same tower we were directly OVER when the turn started. Yikes!

When we arrived (and it was an ARRIVAL -- there was no doubt we were down) Mary was hyperventilating, the kids were frozen in terrified silence, and I've always wondered what the hell that Beech pilot was thinking. :lol:

Since we alternate PIC each year, Mary is always waiting for me to get the bone stuck to me like happened to her that year, just so she can give me crap. It hasn't happened yet...although there was that time when we were three abreast in the holding pattern around Rush Lake...

Good times! :)
 
Re: The OP's post.

Is there a prop-driven plane that can't be flown safely at 90 knots?
 
Jay Honeck said:
Re: The OP's post.

Is there a prop-driven plane that can't be flown safely at 90 knots?
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Piston or turbine? There are some like the KAs that shouldn't be flown at 90knots, but AFAIK, there is no plane that- under normal operating conditions- cannot be slowed to 90 while simultaneously unable to do 135 in the pattern.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Re: The OP's post.

Is there a prop-driven plane that can't be flown safely at 90 knots?
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None when they're over loaded with propane and dry ice. ;):lol:

This has been an informative thread even though it's setting of my troll meter ...

I plan to pop my RIPON/FISK approach cherry this year, so the commentary is enlightening. :yesnod:
 
warthog1984 said:
Piston or turbine? There are some like the KAs that shouldn't be flown at 90knots, but AFAIK, there is no plane that- under normal operating conditions- cannot be slowed to 90 while simultaneously unable to do 135 in the pattern.
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I've just wasted five minutes Googling to find what GA plane has the highest stall speed. Although it's not definitive, it seems that the Lancair 400 probably wins the prize, with a stall speed of 60 knots in the landing configuation, and 71 knots clean.

90 knots is still 19 knots above clean stall speed, with even more margin if you drop some flaps. Therefore, what's the issue?

I'm just curious as to what type aircraft the OP is worried about flying.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Re: The OP's post.

Is there a prop-driven plane that can't be flown safely at 90 knots?
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Lots of big prop driven turboprop's in which I wouldn't be caught dead at 90 knots in, other than over the runway.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Lots of big prop driven turboprop's in which I wouldn't be caught dead at 90 knots in, other than over the runway.
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Not that I was actually thinking in terms of turboprops, but...from The Google:

Pilatus PC-12 stall speed: 66 knots

Beech King Air stall speed: 77 knots

Piper Meridian stall speed: 61 knots

Piper Cheyenne stall speed: 77 knots

Looks to me like the King Air and Cheyenne are the ones to be worried about. The PC-12 and Meridian should have no problem at all puttering along at 90 knots, safely, no?

So, I would think the 135 knot FISK approach is logically limited to King Airs, Cheyennes, and jets.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Not that I was actually thinking in terms of turboprops, but...from The Google:

Pilatus PC-12 stall speed: 66 knots

Beech King Air stall speed: 77 knots

Piper Meridian stall speed: 61 knots

Piper Cheyenne stall speed: 77 knots

Looks to me like the King Air and Cheyenne are the ones to be worried about. The PC-12 and Meridian should have no problem at all puttering along at 90 knots, safely, no?

So, I would think the 135 knot FISK approach is logically limited to King Airs, Cheyennes, and jets.
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Any twin you don't want to be below Vyse, Blue Line, unless you are descending, you don't want to be below Vmc, Red Line, until you have the runway made. Stall speed will be below those speeds in most situations.
 
Jay Honeck said:
The PC-12 and Meridian should have no problem at all puttering along at 90 knots, safely, no?
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;)

No they're fine (but not terribly responsive) at 90 knots. Like I said before though 90 knots is okay. I've never been and somebody warned me that there are a bunch of planes arriving that are well below 90 knots. It's getting in line behind someone doing 80 knots that starts to sound a little scary.
 
Hawka said:
No, that is not me. Any time you see a userid with "hulk" in it, it is Jesse from Arlington, TX. I hear he is a great guy. Hope he can be rehabilitated here soon.

:lol:
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They tried to make me go to rehab..... I said no no no!


Hockey stop trolling.
 
thehulk05 said:
I can assure you, hockey hokey hawka blocka flocka are no way or form the same person as hulk.

I'm just a low time pilot who is out spoken. Trying to find his way in the aviation community.
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This is all a huge 6PC scam!!!

Note that previously 6PC said you were a real person. Now Hawka is also saying you're a real person.

You're all 6PC!
 
thehulk05 said:
I can assure you, hockey hokey hawka blocka flocka are no way or form the same person as hulk.

I'm just a low time pilot who is out spoken. Trying to find his way in the aviation community.
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:rofl:

I don't know who is more offended by that accusation, me or Jesse!

:rofl:

I'm not trolling. I am seriously wanting to learn here from others who have been to Oshkosh. This is a serious question, and there have been a number of excellent responses. Thank you all for your input.
 
ChrisK said:
This is all a huge 6PC scam!!!

Note that previously 6PC said you were a real person. Now Hawka is also saying you're a real person.

You're all 6PC!
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No I don't think so.


Bryan and Mike actually helped me pass my check ride.

I took special notice in Hockey once I realized his posting pattern was expert troll level and called him out continuously. Now it seems any username halfway sounding like a hawk, or hockey has taken a keen interest in the hulk. Lol
 
Hawka said:
:rofl:

I don't know who is more offended by that accusation, me or Jesse!

:rofl:

I'm not trolling. I am seriously wanting to learn here from others who have been to Oshkosh. This is a serious question, and there have been a number of excellent responses. Thank you all for your input.
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Response type: troll alert. Back down and offer a compliment to hide troll trail.


Execute chaff flares****
 
thehulk05 said:
Response type: troll alert. Back down and offer a compliment to hide troll trail.


Execute chaff flares****
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I don't think you actually know what trolling means, do you? What is controversial is this thread? Where has there been any attempt to rile people up?

The only person trying to cause trouble, Jesse, is you. Not me.

But I forgive you.

:rofl:
 
Hawka said:
Oh I know what kind of plane I fly ;)

You don't however and it is not relevant to the conversation.
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Yes, it is.

But I wouldn't worry about airplanes slower than 90 knots. The vast majority of airplanes going into OSH are easily capable of that. I've flown the arrival at least a couple dozen times and I've never seen or heard a slow plane on it. Not one. Yes, there will be some, but they're rare. After all, they don't want you flying up their tailpipe either! I bet most of them come into the show before the NOTAM even takes effect.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Yes, it is.

But I wouldn't worry about airplanes slower than 90 knots. The vast majority of airplanes going into OSH are easily capable of that. I've flown the arrival at least a couple dozen times and I've never seen or heard a slow plane on it. Not one. Yes, there will be some, but they're rare. After all, they don't want you flying up their tailpipe either! I bet most of them come into the show before the NOTAM even takes effect.
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Okay thanks that was my biggest concern dealing with slow planes. Sounds like that was exaggerated to me so I'm not going to worry about it.
 
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