not-flight-following etiquette

I'd wager most of the single engine GA flying is between 3k and 9k MSL.
 
GeorgeC said:
For additional situational awareness, I sometimes monitor the various approach frequencies along my route of flight, without being on flight following. Occasionally, I will hear the controller advise another pilot of VFR traffic, and that traffic is me.

A question for the controllers: at this point, what is the best course of action?
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I do the same,find it helpful , more than 9 out of 10 times, prefer not to do FF, but on occasion I do talk to them. I fly under 3000 AGL most of the time. Use mode S transponder and ADS-B.

Cheers
 
FWIW - I often do the same thing in my Flybaby (listen to the controller for the sector I'm in), but I never actually call them up. I have a poor radio and no transponder so flight following really isn't a good option. It can be done based on the primary return, I've done that before, but it's a PITA for all parties involved.

If I hear the controllers call me out as traffic to another airplane I say nothing. The one exception though, I was crusing underneath a class C shelf when a pilot asked the controller why the controller didn't alert them about the traffic near them (which is me). The controller responded stating that they don't have anything on radar and the nearest aircraft is a jet some 30 miles away. The pilot of the other airplane then told the controller that I was in their class C airspace. The controller then started to ask the pilot for a bunch of information about me (color, course, etc).

Since I had another pilot that was basically telling ATC that I was violating airspace (I wasn't) I decided it was time to jump on the radio. I told ATC that I'm the traffic, I'm an experimental, underneath their class C with a couple hundred feet of margin. Controller told me to remain clear and that was the end of the story.
 
azure said:
Okay, but let the controller ask for the ident if he wants one. If you want to pipe up and let the controller know who you are and you think you were the traffic called out, that's fine and probably welcome, but I wouldn't hit ident without being asked to do so.
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I hear you guys, but if I just pipe up on the radio the controller has no idea which target is talking. My most treasured "training" experience has been about six hours total plugged in with TRACON and ARTCC controllers, watching the action and asking numerous questions. The AIM obviously has to discourage random idents, but in this special case I think an ident is sensible. And, having seen idents from the controllers' side I don't think its disruptive.

I'm not sure who all is controllers here, but I'd be interested in controllers' opinions on this. Disruptive, don't-care, or helpful?
 
airdale said:
I'm not sure who all is controllers here, but I'd be interested in controllers' opinions on this. Disruptive, don't-care, or helpful?
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Retired ATC and participation would be more helpful. Then we would have your type, verified altitude etc.
 
mscard88 said:
Retired ATC and participation would be more helpful. Then we would have your type, verified altitude etc.
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Agreed. The rare occasions when I only monitor are typically hops between two Class D airports that are close together (40nm or less), one or both of which are under a Bravo shelf. Otherwise my policy is to either file or to get FF.
 
Velocity173 said:
I used to enjoy providing the service. Especially before all this GPS crap took the fun out of ATC. Nothing like getting a pilot that doesn't have a clue where they're at and one vector gets them to their destination.:)
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So will ADS-B take the fun out of FF as well in a few years? :)
 
GeorgeC said:
So will ADS-B take the fun out of FF as well in a few years? :)
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It'll make it almost obsolete. Like ADS-B, we have TCAD in our aircraft and I can't remember a time that they called out traffic that I didn't show already. Plenty of times we show traffic at low altitudes such as MTRs that they can't even see. Only thing you'll really need for FF in the future, is what type aircraft that we're seeing on the display.

It's all good though. Aviation is evolving into a safer endeavor. No point in doing something "old school" if technology makes it safer. As Rod Machado was getting at in this months AOPA though, it (tech) does take away some of that spark or feeling of satisfaction from piloting.
 
GeorgeC said:
For additional situational awareness, I sometimes monitor the various approach frequencies along my route of flight, without being on flight following. Occasionally, I will hear the controller advise another pilot of VFR traffic, and that traffic is me.

A question for the controllers: at this point, what is the best course of action?
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If there is no interaction, there is no need for etiquette.
 
geneseib said:
If there is no interaction, there is no need for etiquette.
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I suppose "under what circumstances should someone not on flight following speak up?" would have been a better way to phrase the question.
 
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Just giving you a hard time. ;) I am in the same situation on occasion. I'm just reassured by the fact ATC sees me and let it go at that.
 
I don't always get FF. Most of the time, yes, but for short local hops (less than 50nm) that do not pass through congested airspace, I occasionally do not. Sometimes, I just want the pleasure of leisurely exploring, turning here and there, climbing or descending, circling something interesting on the ground, etc... (Admittedly, in such cases I would likely be below 3,000 agl.) Having to report every change of course, or why you are flying in circles is a pain. And in such cases, I am usually the only plane in the area. But, when I do not have flight following, I do listen to the appropriate ATC frequency. I have never spoken up when I hear ATC warn another aircraft about me. (This has only happened a few times that I can remember.) But it does help ME spot other traffic that I may have missed. If it became a safety issue, and I was sure that I was the plane being discussed, and I could not see the other aircraft that ATC was warning about me, and the range was decreasing and the other aircraft didn't have me, then I would announce myself and ident. Otherwise, I would keep quiet.

Like others have mentioned, FF doesn't mean ATC is going to warn you about everything. On the way back from SF the other day, at about 5,500 msl, an aerobatic jet came out of nowhere across our path about 5 miles ahead of us. He passed to our right, pulled straight up, looped over and dove back down, passing directly under us by about 1,000 ft. Not a blip on ADSB, and not a word from ATC, and we were on FF.

NOTE: If the wife is in the plane, I get FF...every time. It's the first thing she asks after we take off.
 
You were headed for LA?

There is an aerobatic box west of Hollister and at least two more around King City.

With no transponder (it's not required) and all the mountains around there, ATC may not see them at all.

You don't need to report every turn to ATC. When you make the request, just say you're maneuvering with a destination of XXXX. They may ask you how much further you're going to manage handoffs, but you're VFR and they will not require you to fly in a straight line. They may ask for your intentions in a high traffic area to manage traffic advisories.
 
Funny, just heard the listening but not using FF scenario two days ago.

Just tuned up CHA approach and over heard "traffic alert" followed by "targets appear likely to merge." The aircraft didn't see the traffic. Couple seconds later a Grumman keys up informs approach that he's the traffic. The other aircraft passed behind the Grumman without either seeing each other. Approach asked the Grumman if he'd like to stay up for FF or freq change. The Grumman said he'd take FF if it wasn't too much of a burden on him. Controller just laughed and informed him it's no burden and that it's his job to provide the service.
 
Rykymus said:
On the way back from SF the other day, at about 5,500 msl, an aerobatic jet came out of nowhere across our path about 5 miles ahead of us. He passed to our right, pulled straight up, looped over and dove back down, passing directly under us by about 1,000 ft. Not a blip on ADSB, and not a word from ATC, and we were on FF.

NOTE: If the wife is in the plane, I get FF...every time. It's the first thing she asks after we take off.
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Probably was a 'stealth' fighter.... ;):D
 
James331 said:
If you're going to bother to listen, why not just get flight following too?

Only times I don't bother when I'm VFR, is when I'm very low level and I know they can't pick me up, not really much traffic in remote areas at 1k AGL and below, unless you got floats you got zero outs, water or trees, not many traffic conflicts, that said I don't bother listening to approach.
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FF ain't that easy to get 'round here. The time of day has a bearing on that. 0:dark thirty AM no problem. But after about 9:00am local, untill about 7 or 8 pm local fergit it. Aint gonna happen.
 
EppyGA said:
How do you know it's you?
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I had this happen when I was flying to Chicago Executive from Indy. I had made a few calls to approach that had gone unanswered to request flight following. I heard ATC call me out by saying my altitude and my location over the Gary Airport to aircraft arriving to Midway, and he indicated that my intentions were unknown. So, I broke in, said who I was, and where, and that I thought I was the traffic he just called out, and would like flight following to KPWK. He gave me a squawk, and then confirmed, "indeed you are the traffic I just called out."
 
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If I ever was with a student during MVFR conditions I'd often listen to center on the #2. It would allow me to get out of the way of any IFR traffic shooting the GPS approach into the field, since it goes right through our practice area. I'm too low to get FF as radar and comm is sketchy below about 3000'
 
In addition to normal traffic spotting, my flight path crosses two or three airports with active jump zones and one school with a heavy University flight training program. I nearly always get FF (or if IFR). Even then, I'll ask "Are they jumping at Swan Creek" today. If so, I can swing a few miles to the east and avoid overflying them when the meat bombs are falling.
 
How about the opposite question: Do controllers ever try to contact an unidentified aircraft on their frequency, or only on guard?
 
I seem to recall hearing controllers looking people busting R-areas with both guard and the local ATC frequency.
 
History is made at night. Character is what you are in the dark.
 
GeorgeC said:
A hopefully clarifying example: I'm flying along on an airway at a VFR altitude appropriate for my direction of flight. I hear a jump plane on frequency. ATC points me out to the jump plane. I spot the jump plane, he's opposite direction, level, below me. Would it be helpful for me to say "n12345 has the traffic in sight, no factor"?
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No
 
bluerooster said:
FF ain't that easy to get 'round here. The time of day has a bearing on that. 0:dark thirty AM no problem. But after about 9:00am local, untill about 7 or 8 pm local fergit it. Aint gonna happen.
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I've experienced this in various areas also and that's the irony of FF isn't it? When you need it the most is when you're least likely to get it.
 
EdFred said:
I'm good. Seems I'm the only one crazy enough to fly over Lake Michigan in a single. There's no traffic to call out!
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Hey wait a minute now...from July to September, I'm occasionally over that lake too! But then, I DO get FF when over the lake, so you're good!
 
Velocity173 said:
Only thing you'll really need for FF in the future, is what type aircraft that we're seeing on the display.
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It's easy enough to map from mode S code to aircraft type... I just sent ForeFlight an email requesting this.
 
bK78s.jpg
 
I can only speak for San Antonio Tx approach control because they attend many of our monthly soaring meetings. The SAT approach controllers prefer to be talking to traffic in and around their airspace. We have a lot of military T38s and T6s working SAT airspace with the airlines and when 1200 aircraft transit approach corridors without communicating it complicates their job. Other TRACOMs may be different but at SAT, they prefer to identify and verify the altitude of aircraft they see on their scopes.
 
airdale said:
I am a believer in FF but for various reasons I have occasionally done what the OP is doing and once or twice have heard myself called as traffic. (Sometimes it is obvious, but hardly always.)

What I have done is to hit ident, then say something like "Approach, Bugsmasher N12345, I think we're your traffic and just hit Ident." Usually, the answer is simply "Thank you, say intentions." and I tell the nice man where we're going and if we plan an altitude change in the near future. Right, wrong, or indifferent I don't know but it seems to be a reasonable way to handle the situation.
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According to the AIM, it's wrong.

4-1-20d. IDENT Feature
Transponder/ADSB-Out equipment must be operated only as specified by ATC. Activate the "IDENT" feature only when requested by ATC.
 
I realize this is an old thread, but I'm sure controllers feel the same towards frequency lurkers who pipe up out of the blue as I feel when I'm hosting a work teleconference and someone who's supposedly not on the line suddenly speaks up.
 
GeorgeC said:
So, assuming I'm being a good VFR pilot, on an airway, at an appropriate altitude, am I reducing controller workload by not being on FF, or am I increasing controller workload by being an unidentified flib that you can't talk to?
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I,fairly sure that traffic count has an effect on controller pay...you are not doing them any favors by not using flight following.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
I,fairly sure that traffic count has an effect on controller pay...you are not doing them any favors by not using flight following.

Bob Gardner
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Hmm, some guy on this thread mentioned something about that. Oh wait, here it is...
bobmrg said:
I'm always amazed by the number of pilots who pass up estabished practices in order to "reduce controller workload." Subject to correction by roncachamp, my understanding is that controller pay grade is based in part on traffic count, so by not participating in FF you are taking dollars out of the controller's pocket. Controllers get paid to handle traffic; you are traffic.
Bob Gardner
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Don't fret, I've done this on a necropost too. At least you didn't contradict yourself.
 
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Brad Z said:
Hmm, some guy on this said mentioned something about that. Oh wait, here it is...

Don't fret, I've done this on a necropost too. At least you didn't contradict yourself.
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Can you confirm the premise?
 
Controller pay is based on facility level and time there. Traffic volume is only part of the equation in determining facility level.
 
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