1RTK1
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Don't they do background checking in your state, or are many of your residents just plain brain dead.???
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News and the normal everyday kit for an adult
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Gerhardt
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Gerhardt
People who either had terrible instructors or just weren't paying attention in class. Our instructor was really, really good about stressing the need to avoid problems at all cost, and that we are not police. The highlight was the video presentation of an attorney who specializes in gun crime cases. One of the things that stuck with me the most was when he said even if you're 100% certain that you did the right thing, if you're involved in an incident where you think you need his services because you fired your gun that you'd have to fill a 50 gal barrel full of cash for his time.
I remember other things from the course, but that's the one that sticks with me the most.
tawood
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Yes, they do backgrounds...but obviously that doesn't prevent future criminal behavior, and even Charlie Manson, at some time in his past, had a clean record.
Ghery
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Ghery Pettit
No class required in Washington state. It is a "shall issue" state. Fill out the form, pay your money, get fingerprinted. The legal jurisdiction has 30 days to say "no". If they don't, it is automatically granted. Of course, many times they don't take the full 30 days to say "yes". My original CPL came in one week. But I live in the county, not the city, so I deal with the sheriff's office. And the guy behind the counter is an amateur radio friend.
As far as the lawyer's statement goes, that's a strong argument for signing up for one of the insurance plans available, if you think there's a chance you'll need it. Three come to mind right off hand.
1RTK1
Pattern Altitude
In kalifornia it's up to the Sheriff. Some more willing than others. My county it's 16 hours of class room plus range time, background and interview to start.
Then every 2 yrs. 4 hours of class, when all is said and done you are talking about $100 per year for ccw.
Then every 2 yrs. 4 hours of class, when all is said and done you are talking about $100 per year for ccw.
Zeldman
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby's_shooting
A massacre because the Texas citizens was not allowed to protect themselves. I knew a couple of people that were in the store at this time. They were not injured. They hid under the table when the guy crashed into the window. I also knew some of the ambulance personal that went inside. They said the blood was ankle deep throughout the dining area.
Before this time it was not legal to carry on the person or even carry a pistol in a car in Texas, unless it was in a locked case and in the trunk. (I know a lot of people had a gun in their glove box, the police at the time had common sense)
That said, I have been carrying in some form since 1984. I have had to put my pistol in my hand and show it 3 times, and all three times the criminal had a complete change of mind. This was all before then Gov. Bush made it legal to carry in Texas.
A massacre because the Texas citizens was not allowed to protect themselves. I knew a couple of people that were in the store at this time. They were not injured. They hid under the table when the guy crashed into the window. I also knew some of the ambulance personal that went inside. They said the blood was ankle deep throughout the dining area.
Before this time it was not legal to carry on the person or even carry a pistol in a car in Texas, unless it was in a locked case and in the trunk. (I know a lot of people had a gun in their glove box, the police at the time had common sense)
That said, I have been carrying in some form since 1984. I have had to put my pistol in my hand and show it 3 times, and all three times the criminal had a complete change of mind. This was all before then Gov. Bush made it legal to carry in Texas.
OK, this is weird - I haven't owned a weapon, just trained with a couple for military and work. . .but was reading this thread while going through my mail, and got my first ever mailing from the NRA for membership. And I think I'll do it, and see about a 9MM purchase, since it's the only handgun I've used since the 80s. I live in Maryland, DC suburbs, which is a little to the left of Karl Marx. I've been happy with a big dog, big knife, and a baseball bat, and it's a quiet neighborhood, but there is some crime.I think it's time. . .
James331
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James331
As much as I'm not a "insure all the things" kinda guy..
https://www.pewpewtactical.com/uscca-review/
3393RP
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Your claim that "gun crime by legal concealed-weapon holders is VERY common" is not supported by statistics. I can't find any newer statistics, but here are some from 2013-2014:
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"The number of CPLs in Michigan increased from 110,777 in June 2004 to 440,006 in June 2014, a 297 percent increase. A total of 398 CPL holders were charged in 2003-04 for all Michigan offenses. That number rose by more than 11 times to 4,421 charges in 2013-14.
For 2003-04 statistics, 131 cases were listed as "conviction/held responsible," and 159 others were marked "pending" at the time the report was issued. 62 were dismissed and six were "not guilty" for the year period.A total of 48 cases were marked "brandishing or use of pistol" for the year.
Of the 2013-14 total, 2,067 CPL holders charged were found guilty, 1,124 were marked pending, 1,201 cases were dismissed and 29 were found not guilty.
There were 367 instances of brandishing or use of a pistol in 2013-14, Michigan State Police statistics show."
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Of the 440,006 Michigan licensees, 2,067 were found guilty of a crime. This translates to .47% of CCW licensees. Your anecdotal experience seems to be greatly at odds with the actual conviction rate for offenders.
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Although offender information for Wayne County just shows CPL licensees charged instead of convicted, the numbers are higher, which should be expected:
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Search AgainWayne County
Population (21+) 1,272,444 20016: Active CPLs Feb. 2016: 94440
2003-04
CPLs issued: 3636
CPL holders charged 128 Using/brandishing gun in crime 0
2013-14
CPLs issued: 18894
CPL holders charged: 1203 Using/brandishing gun in crime:105
.__________________________________________________________________________
Of the 2013-2014 18894 CPL licenses issued in Wayne County, there were 1203 holders charged with a crime. That's 6.37% of licensees.
https://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2016/02/search_arrests_of_concealed_pi.html
I guess whether that counts as "common" or not is a matter of perspective. Whether it's common from the POV of a LEO and the people they interact with would require looking at the crime rates amongst non-carriers too.
But I'm pretty sure that 1 in 16 of my family, friends and acquaintances don't find themselves charged with a crime in any given year (or even 1 in 200 convicted).
Whatever the stats, I do think this idea that "people who commit crimes won't bother with a CPL" is bunk. If I'm an accountant quietly ripping off my wealthy client, that doesn't mean I'm going to chance 5 years lockup every time I go outside rather than fill out the form. Plenty of people who commit crimes are also capable of intelligent risk / reward calculation.
But I'm pretty sure that 1 in 16 of my family, friends and acquaintances don't find themselves charged with a crime in any given year (or even 1 in 200 convicted).
Whatever the stats, I do think this idea that "people who commit crimes won't bother with a CPL" is bunk. If I'm an accountant quietly ripping off my wealthy client, that doesn't mean I'm going to chance 5 years lockup every time I go outside rather than fill out the form. Plenty of people who commit crimes are also capable of intelligent risk / reward calculation.
I keep thinking about getting my concealed carry in IL just because. Although considering I'm now in my 30s and have yet to run into a situation where I thought I even might need it and don't expect to so the motivation isn't there. Still a highly concealable single stack handgun seems like it would be a good thing to have available during my travels.
Funny thing is I have guns at home and I actually need one all the time.... mostly to defend animals and property from things like raccoons and coyotes.
Funny thing is I have guns at home and I actually need one all the time.... mostly to defend animals and property from things like raccoons and coyotes.
James331
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James331
Commit a crime with a gun, we ain't talking about having a CCW and cheating on taxes lol
CC268
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Maybe I'm just misunderstanding this post...but this just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'm not reading it correctly. 40-45% of gun related charges within a specific suburb city of Detroit are CPL holders? And this 40-45% of CPL holders are involved in felonies? How many people have CPLs? Who are they issuing these CPLs to? Something doesn't add up here...because that stat goes against everything else I have seen regarding CPL/CCW holders.
denverpilot
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The statistics presented seem to indicate we need better background checks on LEOs than Citizen carriers. From my time working for a Sheriff’s Dept, I can confirm at least two of the officers shouldn’t have ever been anywhere near a badge and a gun. But the industry doesn’t exactly attract the best and brightest from the Ivy League at their pay scales. No offense but I’ve met a lot of not-so-bright cops.
And I’m all for making it a degree-mandatory job and a much higher pay scale. Fixes a number of problems, including creating economic scrutiny on how to have high paid employees spending their time.
DC itself has one of the highest murder rates in the entire country. How that shakes out seems to be that it stays in poverty riddled areas in DC proper, while six of the richest counties by income in the US, surrounding DC, have workers that commute in and out, avoiding the violence.
For the most part. As best as I can tell.
Various politically connected people with dirt on the top dogs do seem to also magically get shot in the back of their heads and have it labeled “suicide” every so often.
And then there’s the Democrats who shoot up baseball games.
They’re a small percentage of the overall DC murder “3D experience” though. LOL.
CC268
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My CCW instructor said essentially the same thing. If you are involved in an incident, even if you did the right thing, it will change your life forever and the legal process will be arduous. He also said he doesn't go to any large events (sporting events, concerts, etc), which I thought to be rather odd. He seemed to live his life in constant fear.
Like I stated earlier, I think there are a "fair share" of LEOs out there that DO NOT like citizens carrying. That's really too bad and quite frankly, very scary.
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CC268
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The statistics presented seem to indicate we need better background checks on LEOs than Citizen carriers. From my time working for a Sheriff’s Dept, I can confirm at least two of the officers shouldn’t have ever been anywhere near a badge and a gun. But the industry doesn’t exactly attract the best and brightest from the Ivy League at their pay scales. No offense but I’ve met a lot of not-so-bright cops.
And I’m all for making it a degree-mandatory job and a much higher pay scale. Fixes a number of problems, including creating economic scrutiny on how to have high paid employees spending their time.
DC itself has one of the highest murder rates in the entire country. How that shakes out seems to be that it stays in poverty riddled areas in DC proper, while six of the richest counties by income in the US, surrounding DC, have workers that commute in and out, avoiding the violence.
For the most part. As best as I can tell.
Various politically connected people with dirt on the top dogs do seem to also magically get shot in the back of their heads and have it labeled “suicide” every so often.
And then there’s the Democrats who shoot up baseball games.
They’re a small percentage of the overall DC murder “3D experience” though. LOL.
ABSOLUTELY! YES. I completely agree that anyone in law enforcement should have a degree. Hold a higher standard.
I have a friend who is a LEO (Highway Patrol specifically). He has cleaned his act up a lot, but I can tell you he certainly wasn't Mr. Goody Two Shoes in his younger years. I won't comment on anything he did specifically, but I can tell you some of it would have earned him a felony. He dropped out of college and Army ROTC. He started volunteering for the Sheriff Posse and then eventually got on with Highway Patrol. When he first started doing it his ego went through the roof. He has since got his ego in check - at least better than it was.
I think a good LEO is a humble one. Not some egotistical hot head. Sadly, I've met quite a few LEOs like this, in fact, I have shared a few of those experiences on here. I suppose it is human nature - when your put into a position of authority and power it becomes easy to abuse that power, however small it may be. The ones who think they are the only ones who should be armed are the ones who concern me the most.
By the way, I've never carried a gun on me. Ever. I have my CCW, but never used it...I've been blowing all my money on flight training, can't afford a hand gun
3393RP
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And I'm pretty sure the police interacted with a much bigger percentage of lawbreakers in the the overall population of Michigan than the .47% of CPL licensees that violated the law. The Michigan State Police website says 2.5% of the 9.2 million people in the state were arrested in 2015.
The 2,607 CPL arrestees found guilty of a crime were .0003% of the overall population.
I also doubt your family, friends, and acquaintances are CPL licensees either, which would exclude them from that statistical group.
The .47% of Michigan CPL licensees violating the law aren't categorized as to what statutes were involved. Many are likely benign nonviolent incidents, like carrying a firearm into an establishment selling liquor or a business which has legal notices posted prohibiting concealed carry.
The facts are concealed carry licensees violate firearms law at a tiny rate compared to the population at large. They aren't the people the citizenry has to worry about, and it's silly that they are even mentioned in gun control debate.
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James331
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Indeed, heck off the stats you could make a stronger case for disarming the police before CCWs lol
denverpilot
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I already pointed out that our politicians say (by the LEOSA laws) that they’re better Citizens than the rest of us. That’s just legal fact.
I can’t find any objective measurement that agrees, but that’s what the message to us all is. Nice of them isn’t it? Tad rude, perhaps?
No consistent gun laws nationally for anyone but LEO. Even retired LEO.
Why shouldn’t a retired cop run the same legal risks carrying through a decidedly anti-gun jurisdiction as any other Citizen?
Are rights supposed to be different for different groups? No.
Good luck suing over LEOSA and winning as a Federal discrimination case, though.
Would be fun if someone tried.
steingar
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EdFred
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All of them? Interesting, considering my background prior to getting my carry permit.
bflynn
Final Approach
A thought - everyone, if you're going to carry, please do not carry with a round in the chamber. Make it part of your order of arms to rack the slide and load a round. The odds of you ever being in a situation where the second that it takes to load a round means the difference between living and dying is much, much, MUCH lower than you having a Negligent Discharge because you carried a round in the chamber. There's nothing accidental about the gun going off when you don't mean it to.
EdFred
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All of my carry firearms are chambered and always will be. You are correct though, there are no accidental discharges. It comes from people not drawing correctly - and that is not an accident. That is not practicing. When I draw my index finger is extended and never goes into the trigger/guard until I am ready to fire.
FlySince9
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I feel naked without my CW... Anytime I leave the house, I'm pack'n... I refuse to be a helpless victim... The people running out screaming from Walmart are the sheep... the guy chasing them with the gun is the wolf... the guys who took him out are the sheep dogs... (from "AMERICAN SNIPER")... There is no way a cop will get there in time to help you when the shooting starts... so if you're a sheep, better hope there is a sheepdog somewhere in the crowd.
Shepherd
Final Approach
Go play paintball. It's a good substitute for the combat course or whatever euphemism they are calling it these days.
CC268
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Completely disagree and in fact goes against what the majority of CCW/CPL courses will teach you. And yes it very well could be the difference between living and dying.
wilkersk
Pattern Altitude
Your best weapon is your brain. Visions of going toe-to-toe in a movie-western style gunfight are just nonsense. In an active shooter scenario, most people are better off using their wits to avoid getting shot, than trying to take out the bad guy. Police officers are paid and trained to respond. Go take a combat course with real live ammo and get just a tiny glimpse of what specially trained military and law enforcement people learn and practice continually as "small arms tactics".
bflynn
Final Approach
The great thing about this is that you can disagree. But you cannot disagree that you are more likely to kill someone due to an ND because you have a round in the chamber.
When I train from the holster, I don't start with a round in the chamber because I don't carry with a round in the chamber. I am fairly confident that I will never shoot a round that I don't intend to shoot. For me, racking the slide is part of my draw. If that 0.5 to 1 second delay means I get shot, then you got me. I not walking around trying to outdraw every bad guy who I think wants to shoot me.
The odds of you negligently discharging your round in the chamber are so much higher than me getting shot because I don't have to rack my slide. In fact, let's have a competition - how many stories can you find about someone getting shot because they didn't have time to load their weapons vs how many can I find about people who negligently kill someone by firing it when they didn't intend to. I'll even allow you to include stories where someone got flustered because of their bad training and pulled out their gun without loading it. But you won't have more than people killed by NDs.
bflynn
Final Approach
Yet, you are still far more likely to kill someone else than to save your own life. The number of people who die because they didn't chamber a round is so small that you can't even find statistics on it. It took me 10 minutes just to find a single story of someone who didn't train right and chamber a round.
I have more respect for others than that.
FlySince9
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Look... I'm not imagining a "toe-to-toe movie-western style gunfight, or even something like the videos @steingar posted ... But there are scenarios where you're guaranteed to die if you do nothing, like in the aforementioned videos. There are many scenarios where you'd have time to draw and take a defensive position rather than running for your life with bullets following you down a hallway.
Some threats don't even involve a handgun... In NC you are not required to retreat and I'm not going to turn my back on someone attacking me with a knife, a tire iron, or a large rock. So in such cases, things may not go well for the attacker...
Regardless of all the arguments against carrying... I'd rather be able to react accordingly to the threat presented with the additional option afforded to me with a handgun. If you don't feel that way, that's fine. But don't try to take away my right to do so...
EdFred
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Who am I shooting when my gun is pointed down? Gun doesn't get pointed at anything until I am ready to fire. All the training classes I've been in teach exactly the opposite of what you are preaching.
CC268
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Agree to disagree. I do understand your viewpoint. I've often asked myself the same question - chamber or no?
FlySince9
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I have two handguns, a single action and a double... The single, I never chamber... I holster it with the safety off and the chamber empty...the double action is carried with a chambered round...
bflynn
Final Approach
Last year there were over 600 instances of guns killing someone without getting pointed at something. That's just how many did kill someone, not how many went off. There may be more NDs than there are instances of good guys using their guns!
Classes teach to carry a round in the chamber because humans lose 90% of their mental processing under stress and they are afraid someone will not load their weapon. It's true, it does happen, but it is very, very rare. Isn't it ironic that those same classes are probably also teaching that you own ever round that leaves your barrel?
Making loading your weapon part of your dry run training. Mine comes out of the holster, racked as it is being raised, released and on target...it doesn't take me much longer than just drawing and it's an integral part of my draw. It's no different than flying, what we practice, we do automatically.
If you want to be a truly responsible gun owner then you will also do your part to make your weapon safe while carrying too. There are thousands of examples of a round in the chamber not being safe.
EdFred
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If the gun isn't pointed somewhere, how does the bullet hit something? It had to be pointed somewhere other than down. It is pounded into the classes collective heads "know your environment." When I draw my gun stays pointed down. It only comes up when I'm going to pull the trigger.
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SoonerAviator
I get that point of view, but the odds still have some influence over my decisions in life. Just about everything is “life and death” if you widen the scope enough.
Ex: I don’t carry my entire tool box and a truck bed full of parts to fix any failure that may occur while driving which could kill me or my other occupants. The odds of the failure and wanting to fix it immediately are extremely low.
Same with needing a gun in my quiet community. Very low overall crime rate per capita, even lower violent crime rate. Most shootings that occur are in the persons home by people they know (friends/family members). Does it mean i won’t be involved in a shooting where I (or my family members) died because I didn’t have a gun? No, it’s certainly possible. I just believe the odds are low enough that I’m comfortable not keeping a weapon in my person at all times. If I lived in a different city, I might feel compelled to carry. YMMV
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bflynn
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The same way unloaded guns kill people.
overdrive148
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jsstevens
I probably wouldn't very good with gloves on either since I don't practice that way. I fully get that the stress of the environment and speed that things happen keep people from being effective. (Heck I've missed shots in a nerf gun battle because I was surprised.)
I'm not a CW holder but that video seemed designed to cause trouble for the shooter. Gloves and a mask? Then shoot?
John
EdFred
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They were used as bludgeoning weapons?