News and the normal everyday kit for an adult

jsstevens said:
I probably wouldn't very good with gloves on either since I don't practice that way. I fully get that the stress of the environment and speed that things happen keep people from being effective. (Heck I've missed shots in a nerf gun battle because I was surprised.)

I'm not a CW holder but that video seemed designed to cause trouble for the shooter. Gloves and a mask? Then shoot?

John
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Most LEOs and soldiers, who have extensive and continual firearm training, miss in the heat of the moment. By all means enjoy your guns fellas, do whatever you like within the limits of your local statutes. But I suspect that the though of you being the hero who saves everyone when the chips are down are not as likely as you think they are.
 
bflynn said:
The same way unloaded guns kill people.
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Unloaded guns don’t kill people.

People who treat any gun as unloaded EVER, weren’t trained right. They usually argue for things like not chambering rounds because they didn’t “get it” in their training about rule number 1.

There’s no such thing as an unloaded gun.

Unless it’s disassembled, slide locked with the chamber visible, or there’s a chamber flag sticking out of it, it’s loaded. (And I don’t even trust chamber flags. But I’ll leave it in the list for arms that don’t slide lock when clear.)

Training yourself that there’s ever a firearm with a closed bolt that you can’t see the chamber that is “unloaded” creates a cognitive dissonance that leads directly to your sentence above. It’s improper training and an improper attitude toward a firearm.

Like primacy in aviation training if you got this wrong in your head it is going to take extra effort to beat it out of you. I know a few instructors who can do it.

Teaching people to carry unchambered is a sign someone missed the most important safety rule and hasn’t internalized it yet.

NDs happen only when someone thinks a firearm is unloaded and sticks their booger hook or some other object inside the trigger guard.

My favorite is the cop who hung his Glock on a hook in the restroom stall by the trigger guard and then pushed up on it as he was taking it off the hook. It fired every round in the magazine from recoil.

Mr FBI doing his Dancing with the Stars impression here in Denver recently and then picking his duty pistol up by the trigger, wasn’t too bright either.

Load it, chamber it, put it in a proper holster, and do not manipulate it ever thinking it’s “unloaded”. Racking drills are for malfunctions, not draw strokes.
 
FlySince9 said:
Look... I'm not imagining a "toe-to-toe movie-western style gunfight, or even something like the videos @steingar posted ... But there are scenarios where you're guaranteed to die if you do nothing, like in the aforementioned videos. There are many scenarios where you'd have time to draw and take a defensive position rather than running for your life with bullets following you down a hallway.

Some threats don't even involve a handgun... In NC you are not required to retreat and I'm not going to turn my back on someone attacking me with a knife, a tire iron, or a large rock. So in such cases, things may not go well for the attacker...

Regardless of all the arguments against carrying... I'd rather be able to react accordingly to the threat presented with the additional option afforded to me with a handgun. If you don't feel that way, that's fine. But don't try to take away my right to do so...
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I'm a gun enthusiast and CPL holder too. Not even suggesting infringing on anyone's rights. Just really want people to realize just how much time and training are involved in competently using the gun as the tool it is intended to be. And how, by carrying a weapon, you are also limiting your options as well. For any public activity you choose to participate in, you have to take into consideration "the gun".

A gun is a tool. In the right situation, like going through the door that bad guys are presumed to be behind, it is the right tool. But, in preparing for that 3/10ths of 1 percent chance that you are going to be confronted by a violent criminal, is carrying a gun around all the time the best tool? Maybe it is, if you're a cop, or a security specialist, or someone who regularly conducts business that brings you into the vicinity of bad guys.

For me, I have twice been confronted by someone intending to do me harm. Once, they were so fast, I was left bleeding and wondering what happened, it was only a few seconds later I realized they got my watch. I was lucky! The other time, a guy had his arm around my neck and an alleged "knife" at my back. But, he wasn't as determined to rob me as I was to survive him. I used my wits to get out of that, and left him with a lump on his head and a surprised look on his face. Other times, I've avoided trouble by just being aware of my surroundings and taking action to avoid trouble.

Its just not possible to prepare for every contingency. But, I'm confident that I can take care of myself. And, I don't want the constant responsibility of having "the gun" on me. Maybe its different for you.
 
steingar said:
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Wow, that was rigged to the point it makes a carnival game look legit lol



bflynn said:
A thought - everyone, if you're going to carry, please do not carry with a round in the chamber. Make it part of your order of arms to rack the slide and load a round. The odds of you ever being in a situation where the second that it takes to load a round means the difference between living and dying is much, much, MUCH lower than you having a Negligent Discharge because you carried a round in the chamber. There's nothing accidental about the gun going off when you don't mean it to.
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Nope

These things work better with a bullet in the chamber.

Unless you're into being all dramatic cock my piece yo ;)

 
steingar said:
Most LEOs and soldiers, who have extensive and continual firearm training, miss in the heat of the moment. By all means enjoy your guns fellas, do whatever you like within the limits of your local statutes. But I suspect that the though of you being the hero who saves everyone when the chips are down are not as likely as you think they are.
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Since I'm in the business of training both soldiers and LEOs, I'm well aware that many miss in the heat of the moment. (More LEOs than soldiers, interestingly enough. They generally don't get as much training.) I suspect you're are correct in your premise, but I still object to the scenario in the video.

The scenario in the video still seems to me to be designed to make it harder for the shooter. Think it through as a scientist. Are those conditions typical of the real world shooting? I get the 1) surprise, 2) classroom setting was representative of the initial case cited. I assume the gloves and face masks were for protection but they are not what occurred in my classes at school. Are they how you give your lectures?

John
 
steingar said:
Most LEOs and soldiers, who have extensive and continual firearm training, miss in the heat of the moment. By all means enjoy your guns fellas, do whatever you like within the limits of your local statutes. But I suspect that the though of you being the hero who saves everyone when the chips are down are not as likely as you think they are.
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Where is this “extensive and continual” training I for military and LEO I constantly hear about? None of our LEO have anything but an annual qualification shoot and maybe if they get a state or federal grant, a day on the urban building scenario range. And that’s only in the largest and wealthiest of counties.

Military? Hell, I knew people who never touched a firearm in and sort of serious training course after their initial small arms training and were in for two decades. They had to go “qualify” once in while. That’s not training.

I think you’re delusional if you think the random cop who shows up at a shots fired call has had “extensive and continual” training, for the most part. The SWAT teams do, but there’s been a long growing evidence chain that SWAT has become overused and an excuse to not properly train OR test beat cops and detectives on their firearm handling and tactics. Los Angeles PD may have had a very bad unintended consequence on PD firearms training by creating the first SWAT team.

Many departments are leaning away from SWAT and starting to realize it leaves a massive experience and training hole where the SWAT group ate the training budget. But the public expects them to have one, so they’re stuck.

One way to reduce training costs is tech. The scenario trainers are impressively real these days. Not exactly airliner simulator style real, but you’ll think you’re mostly in the scenario. Some now allow and work with live fire instead of lasers which is excellent training.

I’ve been through a “shoot or don’t shoot” scenario course and it’s tough. I got an easy one, sniper shoots two people standing in front of me. Clearly a shoot back and find real cover scenario. Karen got a parking lot scenario, difficult but workable. Over with before cover could be reached.

The poor guy who got the mom holding a baby after getting it out of the back of a car, who draws to shoot her ex during an argument — which is a law enforcement scenario not a civilian scenario, and the instructor was clear about it — decided to shoot her in the knees.

The instructor chuckled and said “That was one of the better options... but you didn’t do it fast enough to save the boyfriend.”

But no. *Most* LEO and Military aren’t actually trained for ****. Don’t get the idea that they are. They’re also not required to defend you or anyone but themselves by law. Ever. This is why the coward in Florida who was warned in plenty of time to stop the kid OUTSIDE the building by a spotter via radio, will retire with his full pension. And that story is now hushed and gone from public view. His JOB was defending kids and he didn’t have to. And didn’t.

And then there’s Murphy. One of the most famous FBI actual gunfights ever? The sharpshooter who was the best shot anyone on his team had ever seen with a pistol? Lost his eyeglasses in the purposeful car crash that started the gunfight.

He sent over 30 rounds downrange at the bad guys, had the best firearm of any of them for a gunfight... and forensics says he maybe hit once.

From across a street behind a car.

Nerd straps on his glasses (or modern goggles like most of them wear during felony stops of murderers now when it’s a known thing like that one was) would mean four agents would still be alive and he would have been “the hero”.

Let’s talk about “hero” for a minute. Nobody I know who’s ever had to shoot wanted nor was motivated by any desire for said status. Ever. Gunfights don’t make heroes. The heroes are the people pushing to get budget so officers can even afford to go to the range, let alone get pro level training in tactics. Or who write a grant proposal to send officers to the training at Quantico.

Civilians? We can (and do) hire the retired guys from Quantico and similar. Costs almost nothing and is the best workout you’ll ever get at a range. I’ll pay for a cop to go too, if one wants to.

If you’re just plinking pop cans and you carry, your “currency and proficiency” from your training plan are probably off the bottom of the scale. Just like the pilot who hasn’t flown anything but the required currency approaches in years.
 
jsstevens said:
Since I'm in the business of training both soldiers and LEOs, I'm well aware that many miss in the heat of the moment. (More LEOs than soldiers, interestingly enough. They generally don't get as much training.) I suspect you're are correct in your premise, but I still object to the scenario in the video.

The scenario in the video still seems to me to be designed to make it harder for the shooter. Think it through as a scientist. Are those conditions typical of the real world shooting? I get the 1) surprise, 2) classroom setting was representative of the initial case cited. I assume the gloves and face masks were for protection but they are not what occurred in my classes at school. Are they how you give your lectures?

John
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All professional instructors I’ve talked to about that video agree with your assessment. It’s a contrived scenario and a pretty bad one at that. They’ve all got better scenario training that’s a lot more realistic they use for their scenario courses and the statistics for defense being successful run higher than offense in all but ambush type scenarios.

Ambushes, Military and LEO both are unsuccessful at almost a 90% rate. Whether they’d DIE or not prevail after being shot the first time, is usually the one guy’s focus on ambush scenarios. Single handed reloads behind cover, loss of use of limbs, etc. You’ll find out in a hurry if you have the correct duty pistol if you can’t reload it and get it back into action with your off hand, for example. Most people have never trained to rack a slide on the ground or their duty belt, for instance, with their off hand. Has to be done very carefully as a training exercise, booger hook placement is quite critical when racking a slide on ones belt while lying on the ground with a simulated dead arm and leg.
 
denverpilot said:
All professional instructors I’ve talked to about that video agree with your assessment. It’s a contrived scenario and a pretty bad one at that. They’ve all got better scenario training that’s a lot more realistic they use for their scenario courses and the statistics for defense being successful run higher than offense in all but ambush type scenarios.

Ambushes, Military and LEO both are unsuccessful at almost a 90% rate. Whether they’d DIE or not prevail after being shot the first time, is usually the one guy’s focus on ambush scenarios. Single handed reloads behind cover, loss of use of limbs, etc. You’ll find out in a hurry if you have the correct duty pistol if you can’t reload it and get it back into action with your off hand, for example. Most people have never trained to rack a slide on the ground or their duty belt, for instance, with their off hand. Has to be done very carefully as a training exercise, booger hook placement is quite critical when racking a slide on ones belt while lying on the ground with a simulated dead arm and leg.
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Yep to all that. And I'm nowhere near that good but I don't really aspire to be either. I practice shooting and racking off-handed, but not on objects. So if either arm gets disabled I've got whatever is left in the mag. Since I use a 1911 I can cock the hammer with one hand (either hand).

I want to do some of those courses (with a real firearm rather than electronic simulated) because I'm curious. But I have no illusions about stopping the bad guys in a shoot out.

John
 
wilkersk said:
I've avoided trouble by just being aware of my surroundings and taking action to avoid trouble.
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This is what I am trying to teach my wife. A few times I have stopped her and told her to look at the surroundings. Where will the bad guy be hiding?

I hope she is learning more than she lets on.
 
i don’t carry everyday, but I do often. I work in a violent part of a violent town. Heck, the cops arrested a guy IN OUR SHOP a couple of months ago, he hopped the fence and ran in from the section 8 housing that borders our place. I don’t carry to be a hero, if I can run, I’m running. I am also not responsible to protect anyone but my family and myself, I’m not going TO gunfire except for my family. I pay attention......always......but ambush happens and I can’t avoid it if it does. I also can’t out draw a drawn gun, most couldn’t. A pistol without a round in the chamber is a hammer, I’m not fighting with a hammer.
 
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