- Joined
- Jun 13, 2008
- Messages
- 7,838
- Location
- Marietta, GA
- Display Name
Display name:
Drake the Outlaw
Not a job I would want to do at the confluence of the Indian and Southern Oceans.
Cold, wet, and on heaving swells. What's not to like?
Not a job I would want to do at the confluence of the Indian and Southern Oceans.
So why is it that large air carrier aircraft are not required to have ELTs like other aircraft? That just seems odd.
So for quicker rescue you just get out the raft in the water and start farting. So who needs an ELT when a good fart will do better. I will make sure I eat plenty of beans before that overwater flight.
Thanks for the tip.
José
I will start this question with the statement I have never seen the cockpit of a 777 and have only flown on one one time. With all of this ELT stuff flying around and FAA regs being pulled up does any of this apply to a foreign registry airplane?
Air transport planes air certified under FAA Part 25 not part 91.
Part 25
This part contains airworthiness standards for airplanes in the transport category.
Transport category airplanes are either:
Jets with 10 or more seats or a maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) greater than 12,500 pounds (5,670 kg); or
Propeller-driven airplanes with greater than 19 seats or a MTOW greater than 19,000 pounds (8,618 kg).
The Boeing 737 and later types, and Airbus A300 series, are well-known airplane types that were certificated to FAR Part 25.
Most of the Federal Aviation Regulations, including Part 25, commenced on February 1, 1965. Prior to that date, airworthiness standards for airplanes in the transport category were promulgated in Part 4b of the US Civil Air Regulations. The Boeing 707 and 727 are two well-known airplane types that were certificated to CAR Part 4b.
José
So why is it that large air carrier aircraft are not required to have ELTs like other aircraft? That just seems odd.
These aircraft are flown on IFR routing under ATC control in a much more structured environment. There is a dispatch tracking the flight as well.
There are ELT's on board, just portable units stored in the survival gear.
Well....... Except for this flight.............
Latest newspaper theory was that the pilot was trying to save the airplane - drop to 10K and turn to the nearest airport probably due to a fire which could have shut down communications. Then things got worse and the airplane flew off on it's own.
A good number of knowledgeable people saw this as the most likely scenario from the get-go. Only after the rulers of the country started to disseminate misinformation to achieve maximal political gain the picture got confusing.
Here are some pictures of the 787 ELT that was called for an FAA AD
https://www.google.com/search?q=B78..._0FJTC2gXzvYCoAg&ved=0CHcQsAQ&biw=652&bih=350
FAA B787 ELT AD
http://www.flyingmag.com/news/faa-require-boeing-787-elt-inspections
José
So why is it that large air carrier aircraft are not required to have ELTs like other aircraft? That just seems odd.
And Air France 447 . . . . . and that Egypt Air flight . . . . . and those folks who sank in the Everglades . . . . .
"No installed ELT required for airlines because they fly under positive ATC control in a regulated environment" works well until something happens. The ELT is dead weight and unnecessary maintenance expense, until something happens. Murphy is the whole reason we have ELT's in the first place!!
Something happened to MH 370, and they didn't have an ELT that was reachable or that activated . . . . .
And who is going to hear it out in the middle of a HUGE ocean, and how long will it transmit underwater. And again, what is the range of an ELT signal that originates underwater?
Also, they are in contact with the dispatchers on a fairly regular basis. If they miss a report, the red flags are raised and an investigation is begun as to where the plane is.
Postulated on PPRune, most submarines do not have equipment tuned to the black box pingers and are unlikely to be able to detect the ping while listening for gaseous emanation from shrimp (evidently those are in the right frequency range). There are towed arrays with inline frequency down conversion that can interface to the submarine's sonar equipment. With the towed arrays they are still limited to 5 knots, and widths of about 1 nm. Odds are not good they will find the black box in time based on the current search area dimensions.
I am not a submariner, but I can say from hunting subs with surface ship sonar and mines with underwater vehicles, sound propagation through water is problematic. All kinds of dead zones that are constantly changing with temp, pressure, salinity ....etc. Finding something making noise underwater can be really hit and miss at times, even when you know where they are. It isn't as easy as Hollywood makes it seem.
Not saying they won't find it, but it is a big challenge.
These aircraft are flown on IFR routing under ATC control in a much more structured environment. There is a dispatch tracking the flight as well.
There are ELT's on board, just portable units stored in the survival gear.
B777ER are not intended for domestic flights but for long oceanics flights. On oceanic flights ATC control is exercised via HF radio
Company contact is provided by HF LDOC ARINC stations.
If you lose total radio contact and have a mishap a rescue mission is sent two hours after missing the ETA.
However if the pilot activate the ELT in-flight while going down to Gilligan's island a rescue mission is sent right away.
Not activating the ELT while airborne could make a difference of days in rescue, specially on the Pacific and Artic Routes
In addition pilots over the NAT routes are required to listen on 121.5MHz for old ELT transmissions.
I am familiar with the above because I have flown myself the NAT routes multiple times.
Suggest you get familiar with the various ICAO and FAA documents on the Internet
Do not disappoint me or I will stop flying on your airline.Well, that isn't entirely true anymore. With CPDLC, which most companies have nowadays, it is done electronically via satellite.
Not all airplanes are CPDLC equipped. And not all regions are CPDLc capable Inmarsat does not cover the artic routes.
If one needs voice communications.
I will take your word for the time frame.
Point 1: That is IF the pilots have time to activate the ELT while inflight. And that is not a normal procedure.
How long it takes to set a switch? On the B777 there is Master Caution system that can activate the ELT. And of course is not a normal procedure, it is an emergency procedure.
Point 2: I will take your word, again, on the timeframe, but I doubt the mission can get organized that fast.
It depends on the nearest country. I heard that the US Coast Guard is quicker than the Haitian patrol.
Again, that isn't a normally accepted procedure. Not saying it can't or shouldn't be done.
What would you have done instead to expedite rescue?
Sure, but the range at which they can be received is limited.
An airliner at 40,000 feet can hear an ELT 100nm away. When you get handover from NY Radio on HF to San Juan Radio on VHF distance is over 300nm.
So have I. I have told you what MY qualifications are. Unless I missed it, I have not seen what yours are. For all I know you are just a passenger in the back.
An avionics engineer at Boeing on the 7J7 program that produced the B777
Also with United at SFO.
Which airline you work for? Malaysian airlines maybe? They don't set ELTs on during emergencies.
Yeah, well how about a link to a couple?
Latest newspaper theory was that the pilot was trying to save the airplane - drop to 10K and turn to the nearest airport probably due to a fire which could have shut down communications. Then things got worse and the airplane flew off on it's own.
Makes more sense than turning and diving to avoid radar...
http://news.yahoo.com/pilots-tried-save-mh370-193000845--politics.html
A good number of knowledgeable people saw this as the most likely scenario from the get-go.
Further outcry to mandate them on ALL flights, which is probably going to happen because Congress does so love to make new laws, is a typical knee jerk reaction as if to say that what happened with MH370, which was a freak occurrence, is something that is suddenly going to start happening ALL the time and by golly we gotta DO something about it.
Notice that the statement above says – "Equipped to carry not more than one person" That would imply a cargo plane. So the rule for a B777 still applies.
If you were in an emergency event over the North Atlantic with no HF/VHF coms because there is no electrical power how you were instructed to convey your location so they can quickly assist you?
BTW I was working with Boeing at Everett during the B777 FAA certification and can tell you that the ELT on the B777 is not an option but standard equipment. In fact some of them had dual ELTs at differnt locations.
During the 911 event none of the airplanes involved had their ELT activated, which would had helped identify them. This is why they grounded all air traffic.
It is suspected that the hijackers kept the pilots from turning them on. Since then ELT switch location on many ATP planes is not viewable to the hijackers but maybe disguised as another switch or pedal switch activated, very useful when the pilot has his hands on the head. Some airlines go to the extreme of having a fake ELT switch on the console so the hijackers don't bother to look for the true switch.
In severe turbulence you may get an ELT ON warning on the EICAS display. Check with your company how to re ARM the ELT. Flight simulators have no ELT switches
José
Interesting plot of Inmarsat's logic at two cruising speeds, 450 & 400 kts:
Speaking of Inmarsat - I'm impressed that their satellites record and log as much information as they do - even for heart beat pings. I would have thought that no information would have been recorded that allowed doppler analysis.
And with that I've wasted enough time debating a fool.
Speaking of Inmarsat - I'm impressed that their satellites record and log as much information as they do - even for heart beat pings. I would have thought that no information would have been recorded that allowed doppler analysis.
I don't think it's actually information, the handshake signal is of a specific duration which would either be compressed or expanded (by microseconds or nanoseconds, maybe even picoseconds) depending on whether the aircraft was moving away or towards the satellite
I would press the button for the SAT phone and call Gander or Prestwick just like l always do when I can't get comm. Tell me how many hours you have in a 777 ? or are you just an internet picture snipper ?
But that takes longer than activating the ELT switch. And that is assuming you have power on the SAT phone and you don't get a busy tone or the annoying message "Please try again later" BTW is rare to lose contact with Gander. Perhaps you had the wrong frequency. At night is best to use the 5 MHz frequencies and during daytime the 8 and 11 MHz frequencies
5 years on the B777 development program.
Plenty of hours on the Boeing Iron Bird making sure the FBW does not hick up on you. And plenty of hours on flight testing before you had a chance to fly it.
Just what B777-??? you fly? All three digits please.
José
Only the real insiders call it "the FBW"
Piloto, how many ACE's on a 777 and where are they?