New Information On MH 370

MAKG1 said:
You're aware that airliner electronics are not usually in the flight deck, right? ...
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I'm intimately aware, I've been working on Triple Sevens since the first one was delivered in '95. Yes the flight control electronics are located in the main electronics bay forward of the cargo pit however they are not autonomous devices. You can not incinerate the entire cockpit and expect the flight management computers to just continue flying the airplane with all commands severed like headless robots.

This ain't Hollywood.
 
Henning said:
Because the turn headed them for Lankawi, the closest airport to handle them after the roof opened up and upset the aerodynamics starting the fugoid, by 45,000' everybody was done for and the plane flew on that course at the new altitude it stabilized at accounting for the extra drag until it ran out of fuel. I think when eventually found (if) it'll be about 3/4s the way to where they were looking. I'm surprised a sub didn't follow the track line listening for the lingers on the boxes.
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A sub probably did, but nobody wants to give away what their capabilities are or where their assets are.

When I saw they called out the Woods Hole kids, I figure they know right where it splashed, but they need to put on a show of looking for it with a civilian vessel.

Just enough folks with appropriate ties at Woods Hole that a private phone call would hint at where to "search".

We'll see. Last I heard they weren't on station yet.
 
denverpilot said:
A sub probably did, but nobody wants to give away what their capabilities are or where their assets are.

When I saw they called out the Woods Hole kids, I figure they know right where it splashed, but they need to put on a show of looking for it with a civilian vessel.

Just enough folks with appropriate ties at Woods Hole that a private phone call would hint at where to "search".

We'll see. Last I heard they weren't on station yet.
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My thoughts exactly....:yes:
 
denverpilot said:
A sub probably did, but nobody wants to give away what their capabilities are or where their assets are.

When I saw they called out the Woods Hole kids, I figure they know right where it splashed, but they need to put on a show of looking for it with a civilian vessel.

Just enough folks with appropriate ties at Woods Hole that a private phone call would hint at where to "search".

We'll see. Last I heard they weren't on station yet.
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N801BH said:
My thoughts exactly....:yes:
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Same here.

It will be really interesting if they are given a hint at "you might try starting your search here..." and that point is thousands of miles away from the current search area.
 
Dav8or said:
Not trying to question your experience and knowledge, rather just curious, is the 777 really that hard to hand fly? In an emergency where moments matter, wouldn't it be better to quickly get on a rough course by hand and then time permitting, key in a course, or approach?
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It's just not the way it's ever done. If you did it that way during a training event you'd get a fail. They're little airplane time (what little they had) was a long time ago. They don't think like GA pilots, they think like they were trained. They're trained to do a heading select turn,(and actually they shouldn't even do that till they're sure of where they're gonna go), look down at the FMC, press the ALT button and see what they're choices are and then start running the Electronic Checklist for whatever emergency is confronting them (if their aircraft were configured with ECL).
 
Art VanDelay said:
It's just not the way it's ever done. If you did it that way during a training event you'd get a fail. They're little airplane time (what little they had) was a long time ago. They don't think like GA pilots, they think like they were trained. They're trained to do a heading select turn,(and actually they shouldn't even do that till they're sure of where they're gonna go), look down at the FMC, press the ALT button and see what they're choices are and then start running the Electronic Checklist for whatever emergency is confronting them (if their aircraft were configured with ECL).
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Just trying to get my mind around another world I guess... So, in your opinion, if there were flames shooting out of the panel, or something really time serious like that, would it be the fastest and safest thing to just grab the yoke and get the plane headed back to land, or go heads down and start punching keys and buttons? I really don't know this airplane so, I don't know the answer.

I get your point of the airline culture though. It is always done this way, so no matter what, do it this way. I'm just wondering if perhaps you and others are correct and there was a fire and they did in fact start programming the FMC to get them to safety, might there be a case for changing the training to include a little more hand flying? Also, if changing course by use of the yoke in an emergency is an automatic fail, what are cases where it is acceptable to use the yoke to steer the plane? Only in the case of complete auto pilot failure?
 
Dav8or said:
Just trying to get my mind around another world I guess... So, in your opinion, if there were flames shooting out of the panel, or something really time serious like that, would it be the fastest and safest thing to just grab the yoke and get the plane headed back to land, or go heads down and start punching keys and buttons? I really don't know this airplane so, I don't know the answer.

I get your point of the airline culture though. It is always done this way, so no matter what, do it this way. I'm just wondering if perhaps you and others are correct and there was a fire and they did in fact start programming the FMC to get them to safety, might there be a case for changing the training to include a little more hand flying? Also, if changing course by use of the yoke in an emergency is an automatic fail, what are cases where it is acceptable to use the yoke to steer the plane? Only in the case of complete auto pilot failure?
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The only procedure that requires clicking off the A/P is when reacting to a TCAS Resolution Advisory. In your scenario would you have them programming the box while hand flying at the same time ?
 
Art VanDelay said:
The only procedure that requires clicking off the A/P is when reacting to a TCAS Resolution Advisory.
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Clearly shows that the training scenarios have their limits.
Assumption that A/P always works, hmmm :rolleyes2:
 
On FBW flight control systems like that on the B777 the commands input by the pilot are not control surface position but rather attitude commands. This makes the airplane more stable and easier to hand fly than the classics. The control surfaces move in response to control laws in the PFCs (Primary Flight Computer) to achieve the pilot desired attitude. The FBW also provides envelope protection and load alleviation.

José
 
They don't have to fly manually while programming, they could be in the HDG select mode.
 
ClimbnSink said:
It was bigfoot. You just know those big apes are tired of hiding in the woods while humans get to fly around. Not like bigfoot can barefoot bandit a little cessna, no bigfoot needs a big big plane. Plane will probably show up in Nepal or the PacNW or at burning man.
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You do realize that the guy in San Antonio that said he had Bigfoot's body admitted today that it was a fake....

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Bigfoot-tracker-admits-body-is-a-hoax-5363373.php
 
Silvaire said:
Why would they be overcome by fumes? They have smoke goggles and oxygen masks.
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Yeah, there was a compression failure of a large scale on the fuselage that may have involved the cockpit or electronic bays. My bet s still on a corrosion issue.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Who's fighting the fire or dealing with whatever is causing the turn in the first place ? My kingdom for a flight engineer !
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I'm not trying to argue with you, or your actual experience, I'm just trying to understand what might have happened in the fire scenario. So, could not the guys on the flight deck call in other members of the flight crew to help with the crisis? I'm assuming they were facing life and death, so I might guess that protocol would go out the window. Seems like an all hands on deck sort of situation. Anyhow, I suppose anything could have happened.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, there was a compression failure of a large scale on the fuselage that may have involved the cockpit or electronic bays. My bet s still on a corrosion issue.
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If it didn't have corrosion problems before, it does now that it is sitting under 10,000 feet of salt water..;)....

I personally give it 70% chance it's in the drink and 30% chance it's under a tarp on some obscure landing strip....:rolleyes2:
 
"New" news (or perhaps not since I'd read elsewhere that no official transcript of radio dialog had ever been issued by Malaysian authorities; wish I could re-find the site where I first learned that.):

Malaysia has released a new version of the final words supposedly spoken in the cockpit of missing Malaysia Airlines flight 370, and conceded that authorities are unsure whether they were spoken by the pilot or co-pilot.

"Good night Malaysian three seven zero"; was the last communication before all contact with the plane was lost and not "all right, good night" as previously stated, embattled Malaysian authorities said last night.

"We would like to confirm that the last conversation in the transcript between the air traffic controller and the cockpit is at 0119 (Malaysian Time) and is 'Good night Malaysian three seven zero';" the Ministry of Transport said in a statement.

The statement made no mention of words previously released to the media by Malaysian officials.​

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1462276/good-night-malaysian-three-seven-zero-confusion-malaysia-releases-new
 
Henning said:
My bet is still on a corrosion issue.
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A little Googling shows the aircraft was delivered new to Malaysia Airlines on May 31, 2002. It had accumulated 53,460 hours and 7,525 cycles in service.

With my admittedly complete lack of knowledge about such things, it appears the aircraft is a mid-lifespan unit. I wouldn't think there has been sufficient time to develop corrosion severe enough to cause structural failure.

I'm thinking if there was a 777 specific issue due a construction method or structural arrangement causing corrosion, it would have been noticed in the fleet.

But it's certainly possible. I believe the aircraft was brought down by a mechanical or airframe issue. The theories about hijacking, bombs, crew actions, etc. aren't plausible IMO.
 
Dav8or said:
I'm not trying to argue with you, or your actual experience, I'm just trying to understand what might have happened in the fire scenario. So, could not the guys on the flight deck call in other members of the flight crew to help with the crisis? I'm assuming they were facing life and death, so I might guess that protocol would go out the window. Seems like an all hands on deck sort of situation. Anyhow, I suppose anything could have happened.
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In a decompression or smoke event, the FAs are kinda busy making sure passengers don't die without O2.

Everyone has jobs already and they're BUSY doing things in the correct order to a) remain alive so you're useful to, b) keep the pax alive.

Who exactly are you thinking the folks in the little room up front are going to call up to get help who aren't already otherwise engaged?
 
Jim Logajan said:
"New" news (or perhaps not since I'd read elsewhere that no official transcript of radio dialog had ever been issued by Malaysian authorities; wish I could re-find the site where I first learned that.):


Malaysia has released a new version of the final words supposedly spoken in the cockpit of missing Malaysia Airlines flight 370, and conceded that authorities are unsure whether they were spoken by the pilot or co-pilot.
​

"Good night Malaysian three seven zero"; was the last communication before all contact with the plane was lost and not "all right, good night" as previously stated, embattled Malaysian authorities said last night.

"We would like to confirm that the last conversation in the transcript between the air traffic controller and the cockpit is at 0119 (Malaysian Time) and is 'Good night Malaysian three seven zero';" the Ministry of Transport said in a statement.

The statement made no mention of words previously released to the media by Malaysian officials.
​
http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/artic...ee-seven-zero-confusion-malaysia-releases-new
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I can see why the familiy members are charging them with a cover up and murdering their loved ones. Their story and "facts" changes by the day. WTF:confused:

How could you confuse the final words from the cockpit, omitting "Malaysian 370" if you have the ATC audio??? That's not a translation issue. Why the attempt to paint the pilot or co-pilot in a bad light without evidence?

This thing stinks to high heaven!

I have a new theory. I'm starting to think that the Malaysian government remotely took over this plane and flew it into the Indian Ocean! For what reason, I have no clue.

They keep saying they're convinced this was a criminal act, yeah but not by anyone onboard. Hey it wouldn't be the first time a goverment mass murdered people.:rolleyes2::yikes:
 
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denverpilot said:
A sub probably did, but nobody wants to give away what their capabilities are or where their assets are.
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Former sub guy here. Finding an actively pinging device in an ocean would reveal nothing about a country's sub capabilities. It's a problem of big ocean, little ping. Accounting for thermal layers that distort sound and local conditions, it could be heard anywhere from a mile to 100 miles away.

I remember once we were operating near xxxxxxx, just xxxxxxxx ops. We heard a noise in the xxxxxxxx dB range, but it had a xxxxxxx hearing rate. It was new so we called it in. Turned out to be another boat near xxxxxx, xxxxxx miles away! Another time we heard a xxxxxxxx dB noise with a xxxxxxx bearing rate and it was xxxxxx miles away!

I think you can see that the answer depends a lot on ocean conditions more than sub capabilities. Nobody is going to to withhold information about this because they're afraid of disclosing capabilities.
 
Should we start a new thread, "ANY new information on MH370?"
It's been 4 weeks and I don't think we know anymore than we did the night it vanished. :dunno:
The only facts that everyone agrees on are the fact that the Malaysian government is covering their collective asses as hard as they can. And we truly have no idea where the damn plane is located or what happened to it.
 
N747JB said:
Should we start a new thread, "ANY new information on MH370?".
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Could be a very empty thread.
I am however not convinced that Malaysians are in some sort of conspiracy to hide some info, they bungled many things for sure, their basic competency could be questioned but they face unprecedented situation.
 
I'm not following this "Malaysian Government" thing? What do they have to do with it? It was a civilian flight of a privately owned airline. This incident is unique and virtually unprecedented and there appears to be plenty of international participation in the investigations as to what happened. I mean other than maybe a less than perfect public relations issue what's the big deal? The airline, the controllers, the government - they didn't cause this to happen, it's not the result of negligence on any of their parts. The aircraft ended up in the middle of the Indian Ocean for unknown reasons - what are people expecting here? :dunno:
 
Considering the total lack of success in finding the slightest clue as to it's whereabouts, the alien abduction theory is beginning to sound more plausable each day.

"Hey Scotty, beam that thing up so we can see what it is. :D

Sarcasm intended. :yes:
 
Silvaire said:
I'm not following this "Malaysian Government" thing? What do they have to do with it? It was a civilian flight of a privately owned airline. This incident is unique and virtually unprecedented and there appears to be plenty of international participation in the investigations as to what happened. I mean other than maybe a less than perfect public relations issue what's the big deal? The airline, the controllers, the government - they didn't cause this to happen, it's not the result of negligence on any of their parts. The aircraft ended up in the middle of the Indian Ocean for unknown reasons - what are people expecting here? :dunno:
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That's a pretty big claim to make.

But anyhow, the Prime Minister and others in the government are the ones that are releasing the conflicting information, misinformation, radar tracks and ATC transcripts.

"The Ministry of Transport released the transcript"

They should have released the transcript 20 days ago before implying something nefarious in "Alright Goodnight":rolleyes2:

Does the "government" run the Air Traffic Control system in Malaysia or is it a Civilian company?:dunno:
 
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I was actually wondering if the Malaysian government owned the airline? It would seem the best approach to take would be "we are doing all we can to help the airline find the airplane." But, it seems the government is somehow to blame in the eyes of the passengers families?? If it were here, I suspect it would be the CEO of the airline on the hot seat, not some minister or czar of transport. :rolleyes:

redtail said:
That's a pretty big claim to make.

But anyhow, the Prime Minister and others in the government are the ones that are releasing the conflicting information, misinformation, radar tracks and ATC transcripts.

"The Ministry of Transport released the transcript"

They should have released the transcript 20 days ago before implying something nefarious in "Alright Goodnight":rolleyes2:

Does the "government" run the Air Traffic Control system in Malaysia or is it a Civilian company?:dunno:
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N747JB said:
I was actually wondering if the Malaysian government owned the airline? It would seem the best approach to take would be "we are doing all we can to help the airline find the airplane." But, it seems the government is somehow to blame in the eyes of the passengers families?? If it were here, I suspect it would be the CEO of the airline on the hot seat, not some minister or czar of transport. :rolleyes:
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I dunno... If the chair of the NTSB or the FAA administrator or even the Secretary of Transportation released and retracted info as many times as the Malaysian transport minister has, heads would have rolled long ago.
 
According to a quick Wiki lookup the Malaysian government does own 52% of the airline stock however I still don't see why all of these fingers are being pointed. What exactly is it that people expected to be done in this situation? The voice transcript of "alright goodnight" being revised to "Malaysian three seven zero" - so what? Is that really such a big deal? Does that change anything at all?

I don't get it, this is a difficult situation and some people seem to just want a head on a pole. We have no idea yet who or what to blame. :dunno:
 
bflynn said:
Former sub guy here. Finding an actively pinging device in an ocean would reveal nothing about a country's sub capabilities. It's a problem of big ocean, little ping. Accounting for thermal layers that distort sound and local conditions, it could be heard anywhere from a mile to 100 miles away.



I remember once we were operating near xxxxxxx, just xxxxxxxx ops. We heard a noise in the xxxxxxxx dB range, but it had a xxxxxxx hearing rate. It was new so we called it in. Turned out to be another boat near xxxxxx, xxxxxx miles away! Another time we heard a xxxxxxxx dB noise with a xxxxxxx bearing rate and it was xxxxxx miles away!



I think you can see that the answer depends a lot on ocean conditions more than sub capabilities. Nobody is going to to withhold information about this because they're afraid of disclosing capabilities.
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I was talking about the big splash if it hit in mostly one piece, more than the silly black box clappers.

And the comment was more about who heard it and whether they were close enough to or not. There's of course, fixed listening assets besides the mobile ones, too.

If you think a government wouldn't sit on where they heard something odd, to obfuscate what heard it and where it was when it heard it... Right. Sure. Whatever.

We knew Kursk was down as soon as her owners did in 2000. We didn't make the first phone call announcing it to the media.

Won't matter if someone does know where it splashed or not. If they don't want us to know, we won't be seeing it on the news.

If one ship from Woods Hole has a "miraculous" find towing a sled, and just happens to sail to within a "reasonable search time" of where the airplane is eventually found, it'll just be a sign of the usual "intelligence" shenanigans.

Not that I care.

Hell, we built and sailed Glomar Explorer, from the open dock, right straight to a Russian sub, and attempted to hoist it aboard, pretending it was looking for energy resources.

And we tapped Russian undersea telephony cables with subs and divers.

Secrets and lies are child's play to the naval intelligence community. That's just par for the course.

Pretending we didn't hear or see something that we did, if those in power believe it serves our best interests to shut up, isn't that big a leap of logic at all.

Even admitting we heard nothing, leaks ancillary information that can be assumed/inferred, once she's found.
 
denverpilot said:
I was talking about the big splash if it hit in mostly one piece, more than the silly black box clappers...
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I believe there is a wide spread, fundamental misunderstanding of just how vastly remote this area we are talking about is. Nobody is patrolling around out there. That tiny square box delegated the search area is the size of New Mexico and there are no land marks for thousands of miles. It's not easy to comprehend.
 
denverpilot said:
..............And we tapped Russian undersea telephony cables with subs and divers..........

.
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Once and a while a well placed skull ..................If one lives another 99 years I suspect a declassified document will be the only answer forthcoming.
 
denverpilot said:
...

We knew Kursk was down as soon as her owners did in 2000. We didn't make the first phone call announcing it to the media.

....
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Yes, my understanding is that we listen more closely to the Barents Sea than the South East Indian Ocean. So of course we knew. Your point is that because we were listening for Soviet submarines, we should hear a big splash on the other side of the world somewhere in a four hour window?
 
bflynn said:
Yes, my understanding is that we listen more closely to the Barents Sea than the South East Indian Ocean. So of course we knew. Your point is that because we were listening for Soviet submarines, we should hear a big splash on the other side of the world somewhere in a four hour window?
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I never asserted it went down where they're looking. I didn't assert that it didn't either. Read only what was typed.
 
3393RP said:
A little Googling shows the aircraft was delivered new to Malaysia Airlines on May 31, 2002. It had accumulated 53,460 hours and 7,525 cycles in service.

With my admittedly complete lack of knowledge about such things, it appears the aircraft is a mid-lifespan unit. I wouldn't think there has been sufficient time to develop corrosion severe enough to cause structural failure.

I'm thinking if there was a 777 specific issue due a construction method or structural arrangement causing corrosion, it would have been noticed in the fleet.

But it's certainly possible. I believe the aircraft was brought down by a mechanical or airframe issue. The theories about hijacking, bombs, crew actions, etc. aren't plausible IMO.
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You've never lived in the tropics I take it, also there is considerable maintenance required to make that life span.
 
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