Piloto
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Or assuming they never had an emergency but the plane was just hijacked and landed safely somewhere
José
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New Information On MH 370
- Thread starter ggroves
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Or assuming they never had an emergency but the plane was just hijacked and landed safely somewhere
José
Art VanDelay
Pattern Altitude
Malaysian Air had a plane with a generator failure divert into Hong Kong a few days ago. A different Malaysian carrier - Malindo Air had to perform an air return due to an engine fire just yesterday. I think we're seeing a part of the world without the best maintenance in the world coupled with a salty humid climate that doesn't help the matter any.
I don't think they ditched, I think they were all long dead from hypoxia by the time the plane ran out of fuel and glided into the ocean.
My thoughts exactly, I think what happened was a corrosion related structural failure.
dtuuri
Final Approach
Of which structural member? How does that explain a flight path that turns three times to avoid non-Malaysian airspace, then heads for the most remote spot on earth?
dtuuri
Piloto
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Maybe. But the Master Caution System would have activated the ELT before going down. If you do not think they ditched what do you think happened after they glided into the ocean?.
José
The only turn I know as accurate information is the one toward Lankawi. Most likely the roof unzipped (wouldn't be the first such occurrence) which set up the fugoid which stabilized at a lower altitude.
3393RP
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Wait, I thought you had the aircraft landing in Pakistan after a night intercept and flying in formation with another aircraft for thousands of miles.
Art VanDelay
Pattern Altitude
I have heard of NO concrete evidence that ANY turns took place other than the initial turn back toward an airfield. The current debris field location is pretty much a straight line on that last heading. What is your source for these alleged evasive turns ?
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Art VanDelay
Pattern Altitude
Piloto
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Why land in Pakistan where marines found Bin Laden and the whole place is full of flying UAV drones? My choice would have been Somalia where nobody cares but the pirates.
José
dtuuri
Final Approach
You say "Lankawi", but the flight path looks more like BELOT, then GIVAL and IGREX. That keeps parallel with Thai airspace (except for a short tangent along the border on the peninsula). It makes the last turn near IGREX where the Indian handoff would be. I'm referencing Inmarsat's depiction to verify published fixes. That's why I propose a possible "Plan B" scenario. If it was a hijacking gone badly, ie, couldn't catch up to SQ68 to shadow it, where else would you put the plane, especially if you were planning to die anyway? United Flight 93 comes to mind.
dtuuri
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wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
Not in all cultures. From a US/Western cultural perspective that may be true. In many other cultures - particularly asian cultures - one may find a culture of deference to persons who are older/more experienced and those in power.
The US had a real issue in cockpits a number of years ago which spawned the emphasis on CRM procedures in use today. A real leadership role.
There have been so many theories that have been pontificated on this that I expect the FUD will continue until pieces of the plane are found. In the early days, I was thinking more along the lines of hijack/diversion to a country that harbors evidoers.... but with the latest information & technology analysis (done by Intelsat and others), I lean far more to the theory that it went down in the Indian Ocean. All that's missing is the proof.
olasek
Pattern Altitude
There were at least 2 turns.
First turn toward west at IGARI that ended with the last known civilian radar location around wypt IGREX.
Then the next turn was south from that point (supported by Inmarsat organization).
The source: this is in public info, Malaysian gov., Malaysian investigation.
There are two more turns suspected: around wpts: VAMPI, GIVAL, those are between IGARI and IGREX (again based on civilian/military radars).
I mean there is no reputable source out there that questions that at least those 2 turns occurred.
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Art VanDelay
Pattern Altitude
Well here is an article that details the SCIENCE they used to find the current debris field. Which seems to paint the picture of a fairly straight line to me. But again it is not sexy or Clancy enough for most so it will probably be dismissed.
http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001tOW-...T2ESxWOP2WMdvEJd3VjQUwrbzHInFDwpq2Q5LGxf4Sw==
Maybe we should tell the Asian carriers to fix their company culture and adopt our CRM, or be barred from operating in the United States and EU.
Wait are we talking about actual culture or company culture?
olasek
Pattern Altitude
Yes, it's fine, this straight line comes after the turns I spoke above. The straight line originates at around IGREX.
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
Had it been a reasonable glide, it may have held together pretty well after it hit the water. That wouldn't leave a whole lot of debris to float off and be found later.
olasek
Pattern Altitude
That would be like hitting runway with a 200+ kts glide, at that speed water is like hard surface, the plane would disintegrate into several pieces.
dtuuri
Final Approach
That's a good article, but I confess the math wiz lost me with his ant on a basketball analogy. Didn't have the patience to try to follow it. The illustrations are more my speed and in the video they show not two or three turns, but four.
EDIT: Ooops. Watched it again, only three. I counted one turn twice.
dtuuri
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Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
Probably so. But would they have been several large pieces that would sink relatively quickly, or a dispersed field of scraps that might float for months?
Once you crack the hull open, floaty bits come out.
3393RP
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This is comical. Post after post about an ELT mounted in the aircraft and its supposedly hidden activation system is debunked by forum members that are actual crew and maintenance engineers. According to these very experienced personnel, the presence of the ELT in the aircraft is unlikely, and a hidden or disguised activation switch is something that has never been seen or even discussed by those familiar with the aircraft in major airline ops.
Then you reference catalog information on an ELT. The manufacturer, Artex, states:
This statement gives no further information about the interface. How does it interface? Does it provide information to the MCS, does the MCS control the ELT, or both?
The Artex literature further says:
Stating that the Artex ELT is "approved for use" in the B777 does not mean that the Artex ELT is installed in every B777 now flying. But you certainly make that assertion.
You also claim the MCS "can activate the ELT". From that, your next post ups the ante by saying if the aircraft ran out of fuel in flight it would have "triggered the Master Caution system and activated the ELT automatically while in flight".
You again make the unequivocal claim that the "Master Caution System would have activated the ELT before going down".
So from vague catalog phraseology stating the Artex ELT will "interface with Boeing's Master Caution System" you make the rather fantastic leap that the MCS will automatically activate the ELT if the aircraft runs out of fuel.
Based upon posts be those that actually fly and maintain the B777, it appears your contention regarding the presence of the ELT, much less its interface and communication with the MCS, is completely without merit.
Then you reference catalog information on an ELT. The manufacturer, Artex, states:
This statement gives no further information about the interface. How does it interface? Does it provide information to the MCS, does the MCS control the ELT, or both?
The Artex literature further says:
Stating that the Artex ELT is "approved for use" in the B777 does not mean that the Artex ELT is installed in every B777 now flying. But you certainly make that assertion.
You also claim the MCS "can activate the ELT". From that, your next post ups the ante by saying if the aircraft ran out of fuel in flight it would have "triggered the Master Caution system and activated the ELT automatically while in flight".
You again make the unequivocal claim that the "Master Caution System would have activated the ELT before going down".
So from vague catalog phraseology stating the Artex ELT will "interface with Boeing's Master Caution System" you make the rather fantastic leap that the MCS will automatically activate the ELT if the aircraft runs out of fuel.
Based upon posts be those that actually fly and maintain the B777, it appears your contention regarding the presence of the ELT, much less its interface and communication with the MCS, is completely without merit.
Yes, I would activate this one
http://www.acrartex.com/products/catalog/elts-commercialmilitary/b406-4/
before crash and wait for the FAA violation notice.
BTW I am not impressed by your woodstick. You should see my machete. It will cut your stick in half on one sweep.
José
Piloto said:
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olasek
Pattern Altitude
I don't think it would be much different than what remained out of AF447.
3393RP
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Why, of course! The pirates in Somalia have shown themselves to be a highly organized technically capable organization. Arranging for a Boeing 777 to be hijacked and flown to Somalia, hidden in a hangar and repainted would be a cakewalk for these guys.
Which of the seven airports in Somalia with paved runways is where the aircraft is stashed? None of the seven has a hangar large enough to accommodate a 777. All of the other airports in the country with dirt runways long enough to operate the aircraft from have no hangars at all.
.
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yeah. I guess even with the Air France that smacked hard, there were still big pieces that floated for a long time.
Just gotta find one.
That's a big-ass ocean.
Silvaire
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Silvaire
Speaking of cultural differences I find it a bit disturbing how the Chinese are reacting with protests and demands. It's a tragedy yes, but there's also such a thing as having some dignity in your grief. Every explanation as to the "why" of this is still pure speculation but the finger pointing is rampant. 
olasek
Pattern Altitude
So do I. This vilification of Malaysian government by those Chinese I find specially ironic considering how non-transparent and political their own government is. And having the highest number of their own nationals among victims the Chinese are not exactly in the forefront of the search effort.
Art VanDelay
Pattern Altitude
Speaking of cultural differences I find it a bit disturbing how the Chinese are reacting with protests and demands. It's a tragedy yes, but there's also such a thing as having some dignity in your grief. Every explanation as to the "why" of this is still pure speculation but the finger pointing is rampant.
Seems to me they should be more concerned with why some party members have Bentlys to drive around in and own skyscrapers while they get crap wages for crap jobs.
N747JB
Final Approach
There are a BILLION Chinese, do you think they are going to spend a lot of money searching the oceans for 100 dead Chinese citizens?? 
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
Actual culture.
And telling them they can't fly into our airspace becomes an international political matter. With all the implications. (I've been in a meeting where the gov't reps from one country said "If you don't, we won't let you fly in our airspace" to the gov't reps from another country. It was "interesting" to watch.)
Speaking of cultural differences I find it a bit disturbing how the Chinese are reacting with protests and demands. It's a tragedy yes, but there's also such a thing as having some dignity in your grief. Every explanation as to the "why" of this is still pure speculation but the finger pointing is rampant.
No surprise with this, either. There is a certain amount of geopolitical tension between the two countries.
There are a BILLION Chinese, do you think they are going to spend a lot of money searching the oceans for 100 dead Chinese citizens??
Good point...........
There were 100 Chinese children born in the same amount of time it took me to type this..
Jessee,
Most sensible post in this thread. I'm with you on believing they are on a witch hunt. Any old scapegoat will do, and the people making the press releases are in CYA mode. At this point, it's akin to proving murder when you can't find a dead body.
Dav8or
Final Approach
Why, of course! The pirates in Somalia have shown themselves to be a highly organized technically capable organization. Arranging for a Boeing 777 to be hijacked and flown to Somalia, hidden in a hangar and repainted would be a cakewalk for these guys.
Yep. The guy with the binoculars looks to be pretty crafty. He is likely the mastermind and knows exactly where it is. It's not in a hangar. They threw tree branches over it just like in the WWII movies.
Those are actually 4 actors from the Captain Phillips movie. Pretty darn good actors too.
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Pilawt
I take it you haven't seen video of the sea and sky conditions from the surface vessels in the search area. That ain't the Hudson River.
Piloto
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Well. If running out of fuel with both engines off is not enough reason for the the MCS to activate the ELT what would be a better reason?
Since you appear to know of other options how would you have called for rescue if there was no ELT onboard. The only one I know is activating the ELT specially before impact. But I am not as smart as you.
José
Piloto
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You are right the sea conditions are different. But at least on the Hudson video we saw the airplane ditching. I have not seen any video or proof that the MH370 ditched in this area. But may be because I have no cable TV but just an antenna in the attic.
José