New Information On MH 370

Assuming it had one and assuming it worked as intended which they often don't.

Or assuming they never had an emergency but the plane was just hijacked and landed safely somewhere

José
 
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Malaysian Air had a plane with a generator failure divert into Hong Kong a few days ago. A different Malaysian carrier - Malindo Air had to perform an air return due to an engine fire just yesterday. I think we're seeing a part of the world without the best maintenance in the world coupled with a salty humid climate that doesn't help the matter any.
 
Malaysian Air had a plane with a generator failure divert into Hong Kong a few days ago. A different Malaysian carrier - Malindo Air had to perform an air return due to an engine fire just yesterday. I think we're seeing a part of the world without the best maintenance in the world coupled with a salty humid climate that doesn't help the matter any.

My thoughts exactly, I think what happened was a corrosion related structural failure.
 
My thoughts exactly, I think what happened was a corrosion related structural failure.
Of which structural member? How does that explain a flight path that turns three times to avoid non-Malaysian airspace, then heads for the most remote spot on earth?

dtuuri
 
I don't think they ditched, I think they were all long dead from hypoxia by the time the plane ran out of fuel and glided into the ocean.

Maybe. But the Master Caution System would have activated the ELT before going down. If you do not think they ditched what do you think happened after they glided into the ocean?.

José
 
Of which structural member? How does that explain a flight path that turns three times to avoid non-Malaysian airspace, then heads for the most remote spot on earth?

dtuuri


The only turn I know as accurate information is the one toward Lankawi. Most likely the roof unzipped (wouldn't be the first such occurrence) which set up the fugoid which stabilized at a lower altitude.
 
How does that explain a flight path that turns three times to avoid non-Malaysian airspace, then heads for the most remote spot on earth?

dtuuri

Wait, I thought you had the aircraft landing in Pakistan after a night intercept and flying in formation with another aircraft for thousands of miles.
 
Of which structural member? How does that explain a flight path that turns three times to avoid non-Malaysian airspace, then heads for the most remote spot on earth?

dtuuri

I have heard of NO concrete evidence that ANY turns took place other than the initial turn back toward an airfield. The current debris field location is pretty much a straight line on that last heading. What is your source for these alleged evasive turns ?
 
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Maybe. But the Master Caution System would have activated the ELT before going down. If you do not think they ditched what do you think happened after they glided into the ocean?.

José

That only works in Puerto Rico and parts of Hialeah. :rolleyes:
 
Wait, I thought you had the aircraft landing in Pakistan after a night intercept and flying in formation with another aircraft for thousands of miles.

Why land in Pakistan where marines found Bin Laden and the whole place is full of flying UAV drones? My choice would have been Somalia where nobody cares but the pirates.

José
 
The only turn I know as accurate information is the one toward Lankawi. Most likely the roof unzipped (wouldn't be the first such occurrence) which set up the fugoid which stabilized at a lower altitude.

You say "Lankawi", but the flight path looks more like BELOT, then GIVAL and IGREX. That keeps parallel with Thai airspace (except for a short tangent along the border on the peninsula). It makes the last turn near IGREX where the Indian handoff would be. I'm referencing Inmarsat's depiction to verify published fixes. That's why I propose a possible "Plan B" scenario. If it was a hijacking gone badly, ie, couldn't catch up to SQ68 to shadow it, where else would you put the plane, especially if you were planning to die anyway? United Flight 93 comes to mind.

dtuuri
 
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If the co-pilot doesn't have the balls to speak up then he has no business flying an airplane.

Not in all cultures. From a US/Western cultural perspective that may be true. In many other cultures - particularly asian cultures - one may find a culture of deference to persons who are older/more experienced and those in power.

The US had a real issue in cockpits a number of years ago which spawned the emphasis on CRM procedures in use today. A real leadership role.

There have been so many theories that have been pontificated on this that I expect the FUD will continue until pieces of the plane are found. In the early days, I was thinking more along the lines of hijack/diversion to a country that harbors evidoers.... but with the latest information & technology analysis (done by Intelsat and others), I lean far more to the theory that it went down in the Indian Ocean. All that's missing is the proof.
 
I have heard of NO concrete evidence that ANY turns took place. What is your source for this ?
There were at least 2 turns.
First turn toward west at IGARI that ended with the last known civilian radar location around wypt IGREX.
Then the next turn was south from that point (supported by Inmarsat organization).
The source: this is in public info, Malaysian gov., Malaysian investigation.
There are two more turns suspected: around wpts: VAMPI, GIVAL, those are between IGARI and IGREX (again based on civilian/military radars).
I mean there is no reputable source out there that questions that at least those 2 turns occurred.
 
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There were at least 2 turns.
First turn toward west at IGARI that ended with the last known civilian radar location around wypt IGREX.
Then the next turn was south from that point (supported by Inmarsat organization).
The source: this is in public info, Malaysian gov., Malaysian investigation.
There are two more turns suspected: around wpts: VAMPI, GIVAL, those are between IGARI and IGREX (again based on civilian/military radars).
I mean there is no reputable source out there that questions that at least those 2 turns occurred.

Well here is an article that details the SCIENCE they used to find the current debris field. Which seems to paint the picture of a fairly straight line to me. But again it is not sexy or Clancy enough for most so it will probably be dismissed.

http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001tOW-...T2ESxWOP2WMdvEJd3VjQUwrbzHInFDwpq2Q5LGxf4Sw==
 
Not in all cultures. From a US/Western cultural perspective that may be true. In many other cultures - particularly asian cultures - one may find a culture of deference to persons who are older/more experienced and those in power.

Maybe we should tell the Asian carriers to fix their company culture and adopt our CRM, or be barred from operating in the United States and EU.
 
Wait are we talking about actual culture or company culture?
 
I don't think they ditched, I think they were all long dead from hypoxia by the time the plane ran out of fuel and glided into the ocean.

Had it been a reasonable glide, it may have held together pretty well after it hit the water. That wouldn't leave a whole lot of debris to float off and be found later.
 
Had it been a reasonable glide, it may have held together pretty well after it hit the water.
That would be like hitting runway with a 200+ kts glide, at that speed water is like hard surface, the plane would disintegrate into several pieces.
 
Well here is an article that details the SCIENCE they used to find the current debris field. Which seems to paint the picture of a fairly straight line to me. But again it is not sexy or Clancy enough for most so it will probably be dismissed.

http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001tOW-...T2ESxWOP2WMdvEJd3VjQUwrbzHInFDwpq2Q5LGxf4Sw==
That's a good article, but I confess the math wiz lost me with his ant on a basketball analogy. Didn't have the patience to try to follow it. The illustrations are more my speed and in the video they show not two or three turns, but four.
EDIT: Ooops. Watched it again, only three. I counted one turn twice. :redface:

dtuuri
 
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That would be like hitting runway with a 200+ kts glide, at that speed water is like hard surface, the plane would disintegrate into several pieces.

Probably so. But would they have been several large pieces that would sink relatively quickly, or a dispersed field of scraps that might float for months?
 
Probably so. But would they have been several large pieces that would sink relatively quickly, or a dispersed field of scraps that might float for months?

Once you crack the hull open, floaty bits come out.
 
This is comical. Post after post about an ELT mounted in the aircraft and its supposedly hidden activation system is debunked by forum members that are actual crew and maintenance engineers. According to these very experienced personnel, the presence of the ELT in the aircraft is unlikely, and a hidden or disguised activation switch is something that has never been seen or even discussed by those familiar with the aircraft in major airline ops.

Then you reference catalog information on an ELT. The manufacturer, Artex, states:

The B406-4 has been modified to interface with Boeing's Master Caution System in conjunction with the DZUS mounted cockpit remote panel (P/N 453-0161) for the B737

This statement gives no further information about the interface. How does it interface? Does it provide information to the MCS, does the MCS control the ELT, or both?

The Artex literature further says:

and is furthermore approved for use on all models of the B747, B757, B767 and B777.

Stating that the Artex ELT is "approved for use" in the B777 does not mean that the Artex ELT is installed in every B777 now flying. But you certainly make that assertion.

You also claim the MCS "can activate the ELT". From that, your next post ups the ante by saying if the aircraft ran out of fuel in flight it would have "triggered the Master Caution system and activated the ELT automatically while in flight".

You again make the unequivocal claim that the "Master Caution System would have activated the ELT before going down".

So from vague catalog phraseology stating the Artex ELT will "interface with Boeing's Master Caution System" you make the rather fantastic leap that the MCS will automatically activate the ELT if the aircraft runs out of fuel.

Based upon posts be those that actually fly and maintain the B777, it appears your contention regarding the presence of the ELT, much less its interface and communication with the MCS, is completely without merit.




So I sit on and wait until the plane crash before calling for rescue. Well you are right on, that's what MH370 pilots did. But I heard that ELTs are no good underwater.

Here is one of the B777 airframe installed ELT suppliers model Airtex B406-4.

http://www.acrartex.com/products/catalog/elts-commercialmilitary/b406-4/

José

Yes, I would activate this one

http://www.acrartex.com/products/catalog/elts-commercialmilitary/b406-4/

before crash and wait for the FAA violation notice.

BTW I am not impressed by your woodstick. You should see my machete. It will cut your stick in half on one sweep.:D

José

Piloto said:
How long it takes to set a switch? On the B777 there is Master Caution system that can activate the ELT. And of course is not a normal procedure, it is an emergency procedure.

José


The probable reason I see for ditching (if they did) after flying that long is because they ran out of fuel. This would have triggered the Master Caution system and activated the ELT automatically while in flight.

Check: http://www.acrartex.com/products/catalog/elts-commercialmilitary/b406-4/

José

Maybe. But the Master Caution System would have activated the ELT before going down. If you do not think they ditched what do you think happened after they glided into the ocean?.

José
 
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Probably so. But would they have been several large pieces that would sink relatively quickly, or a dispersed field of scraps that might float for months?
I don't think it would be much different than what remained out of AF447.
 
Why land in Pakistan where marines found Bin Laden and the whole place is full of flying UAV drones? My choice would have been Somalia where nobody cares but the pirates.

José

Why, of course! The pirates in Somalia have shown themselves to be a highly organized technically capable organization. Arranging for a Boeing 777 to be hijacked and flown to Somalia, hidden in a hangar and repainted would be a cakewalk for these guys.

Which of the seven airports in Somalia with paved runways is where the aircraft is stashed? None of the seven has a hangar large enough to accommodate a 777. All of the other airports in the country with dirt runways long enough to operate the aircraft from have no hangars at all.

.


indian-ocean.jpg


phillips_pirates.jpg.CROP.promovar-mediumlarge.jpg
 
Once you crack the hull open, floaty bits come out.

Yeah. I guess even with the Air France that smacked hard, there were still big pieces that floated for a long time.

Just gotta find one.

That's a big-ass ocean.
 
Speaking of cultural differences I find it a bit disturbing how the Chinese are reacting with protests and demands. It's a tragedy yes, but there's also such a thing as having some dignity in your grief. Every explanation as to the "why" of this is still pure speculation but the finger pointing is rampant. :(
 
I find it a bit disturbing how the Chinese are reacting with protests and demands.
So do I. This vilification of Malaysian government by those Chinese I find specially ironic considering how non-transparent and political their own government is. And having the highest number of their own nationals among victims the Chinese are not exactly in the forefront of the search effort.
 
Speaking of cultural differences I find it a bit disturbing how the Chinese are reacting with protests and demands. It's a tragedy yes, but there's also such a thing as having some dignity in your grief. Every explanation as to the "why" of this is still pure speculation but the finger pointing is rampant. :(

Seems to me they should be more concerned with why some party members have Bentlys to drive around in and own skyscrapers while they get crap wages for crap jobs.
 
There are a BILLION Chinese, do you think they are going to spend a lot of money searching the oceans for 100 dead Chinese citizens?? :dunno:

So do I. This vilification of Malaysian government by those Chinese I find specially ironic considering how non-transparent and political their own government is. And having the highest number of their own nationals among victims the Chinese are not exactly in the forefront of the search effort.
 
Wait are we talking about actual culture or company culture?

Actual culture.

And telling them they can't fly into our airspace becomes an international political matter. With all the implications. (I've been in a meeting where the gov't reps from one country said "If you don't, we won't let you fly in our airspace" to the gov't reps from another country. It was "interesting" to watch.)

Speaking of cultural differences I find it a bit disturbing how the Chinese are reacting with protests and demands. It's a tragedy yes, but there's also such a thing as having some dignity in your grief. Every explanation as to the "why" of this is still pure speculation but the finger pointing is rampant. :(

So do I. This vilification of Malaysian government by those Chinese I find specially ironic considering how non-transparent and political their own government is. And having the highest number of their own nationals among victims the Chinese are not exactly in the forefront of the search effort.

No surprise with this, either. There is a certain amount of geopolitical tension between the two countries.
 
There are a BILLION Chinese, do you think they are going to spend a lot of money searching the oceans for 100 dead Chinese citizens?? :dunno:

Good point...........

There were 100 Chinese children born in the same amount of time it took me to type this..:rolleyes:
 
FWIW I would trust basically nothing coming out of the Malaysian government. If they suddenly have a "source" that says the captain was mentally ill it's quite possible they either completely made that or forced the "source" to say something. They were awful quick to start blaming their captain with basically no evidence to support that from the beginning. Anything they can do to take the light away from how poorly they handled things initially they will do and I doubt they feel bad about throwing the blame on a dead captain.

Jessee,

Most sensible post in this thread. I'm with you on believing they are on a witch hunt. Any old scapegoat will do, and the people making the press releases are in CYA mode. At this point, it's akin to proving murder when you can't find a dead body.
 
Why, of course! The pirates in Somalia have shown themselves to be a highly organized technically capable organization. Arranging for a Boeing 777 to be hijacked and flown to Somalia, hidden in a hangar and repainted would be a cakewalk for these guys.

phillips_pirates.jpg.CROP.promovar-mediumlarge.jpg

Yep. The guy with the binoculars looks to be pretty crafty. He is likely the mastermind and knows exactly where it is. It's not in a hangar. They threw tree branches over it just like in the WWII movies.
 
Yep. The guy with the binoculars looks to be pretty crafty. He is likely the mastermind and knows exactly where it is. It's not in a hangar. They threw tree branches over it just like in the WWII movies.

Those are actually 4 actors from the Captain Phillips movie. Pretty darn good actors too.
 
This is comical. Post after post about an ELT mounted in the aircraft and its supposedly hidden activation system is debunked by forum members that are actual crew and maintenance engineers. According to these very experienced personnel, the presence of the ELT in the aircraft is unlikely, and a hidden or disguised activation switch is something that has never been seen or even discussed by those familiar with the aircraft in major airline ops.

Then you reference catalog information on an ELT. The manufacturer, Artex, states:



This statement gives no further information about the interface. How does it interface? Does it provide information to the MCS, does the MCS control the ELT, or both?

The Artex literature further says:



Stating that the Artex ELT is "approved for use" in the B777 does not mean that the Artex ELT is installed in every B777 now flying. But you certainly make that assertion.

You also claim the MCS "can activate the ELT". From that, your next post ups the ante by saying if the aircraft ran out of fuel in flight it would have "triggered the Master Caution system and activated the ELT automatically while in flight".

You again make the unequivocal claim that the "Master Caution System would have activated the ELT before going down".

[B]So from vague catalog phraseology stating the Artex ELT will "interface with Boeing's Master Caution System" you make the rather fantastic leap that the MCS will automatically activate the ELT if the aircraft runs out of fuel.
[/B]
Based upon posts be those that actually fly and maintain the B777, it appears your contention regarding the presence of the ELT, much less its interface and communication with the MCS, is completely without merit.






.









Well. If running out of fuel with both engines off is not enough reason for the the MCS to activate the ELT what would be a better reason?

Since you appear to know of other options how would you have called for rescue if there was no ELT onboard. The only one I know is activating the ELT specially before impact. But I am not as smart as you.

José
 
Here come the lawyers...


The attorney displays his impeccable logic and critical thinking...

“According to our primary investigation, we think Boeing should be responsible because we have done a lot of cases and we know there is something behind the plane,” William Wang of Chicago’s Ribbeck Law told NBC News after filing papers at a court in Cook County, Ill.

Leaves me feeling dirty just having read it. Ugh.
 
I take it you haven't seen video of the sea and sky conditions from the surface vessels in the search area. That ain't the Hudson River.

You are right the sea conditions are different. But at least on the Hudson video we saw the airplane ditching. I have not seen any video or proof that the MH370 ditched in this area. But may be because I have no cable TV but just an antenna in the attic.

José
 
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