NA Whole-house backup generators

Let'sgoflying! said:
Do I want diesel or propane, my only 2 options
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Do you have propane on site already? If so it's not a bad choice. It does de-rate the generator about 10% to the best of my knowledge. The propane market varies and it can be much cheaper than diesel or twice the cost. Gotta check out local conditions.
 
I am looking to do the same thing. I found the diesel generator that I wanted for half price in Tractor Supply. Here's my card, wrap it up and I'll pull around up front for loading. Then I read the owners manual. NOT FOR USE ABOVE 3000 FEET ALTITUDE.

Ok, I live at 6700 feet, put it back.

So propane it will be, since I have a 500 gallon tank and propane won't go bad or evaporate. Unless the tank springs a leak.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Do I want diesel or propane, my only 2 options
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If it were me, I would research the possibility of converting my electric stove and water heater to propane. If that wasn't insurmountable, I would choose propane switch from all-electric.
In fact, I would probably choose propane anyway and at least run my gas bbq grill off the same tank. I have no other use for diesel.
 
Diesel siting around in tanks just for a standby generator for months or years on end sounds like a horrible idea.
 
Not that propane isn't a good option, but why are gasoline generators categorically ruled out?
 
Sac Arrow said:
Not that propane isn't a good option, but why are gasoline generators categorically ruled out?
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I use a gas back up generator but keeping a fresh fuel supply is kind of a pain. I rotate my gas through about twice of year but not everybody can do that.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Not that propane isn't a good option, but why are gasoline generators categorically ruled out?
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Died diesel does not have a road tax. Propane does not have a road tax. Gasoline has a road tax. Gasoline engines have horrible efficiency compared to diesels.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Not that propane isn't a good option, but why are gasoline generators categorically ruled out?
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Very inefficient, usually less electrical capacity, gasoline engines don't last as many hours. Also gasoline is more dangerous to store and doesn't last as long.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Do I want diesel or propane, my only 2 options
Click to expand...
My friend just got a propane whole-house generator. Mainly because they had a 1000 gallon propane tank installed that they also use for cooking and what not. I'd go diesel personally.
 
There are carb kits available for some portable generators that will let them run off both gasoline and propane. If that's an option for you, I'd go for that. Store propane for the long term, but if the propane runs out during a prolonged outage, it might be easier to haul in a few cans of gas (or siphon a vehicle) than getting a propane truck to make a delivery.

My portable gennie runs on gas, but I've been thinking about a propane conversion.
 
We had a whole house diesel generator on the house we just left in NC. I absolutely loved it. We had it programmed to automatically self test and run for 15 minutes every week. Was wonderful when the power went out during an ice storm and it just kicks in. It was one of the things I hated most about selling that house. It was huge and heavy, we weren't going to haul it across the country when we moved. Probably helped the house sell.
 
Rushie said:
We had a whole house diesel generator on the house we just left in NC. I absolutely loved it. We had it programmed to automatically self test and run for 15 minutes every week. Was wonderful when the power went out during an ice storm and it just kicks in. It was one of the things I hated most about selling that house. It was huge and heavy, we weren't going to haul it across the country when we moved. Probably helped the house sell.
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I'd of came and got it;)
 
Diesel fuel will go bad if stored too long. Propane is the much better way to go. The engine runs cleaner and no problems with carbs or injectors plugging up.
 
My own whole house backup generator is a Honda EU6000iS. I used it when our power went out a few weeks ago. Surge power allows for 10kw spike draws like when the well starts and the furnace is running. It works great. I never worry about the fuel but the starting battery does require attention ahead of the season when I need it. I have a skid mounted 6kw diesel genset at the cabin. Heavy, noisy, smelly, and impossible to move around. My Honda suits my backup requirements to a tee while the diesel fits it’s mission equally as well. I wouldn’t want a diesel as a backup unless its permanently mounted and not expected to move.
 
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Thinking Generac, propane. (installer is the only installer for 150miles and deals with Generac)
How much propane would keep my all electric home running for 5 days?
1400sf, heat pump with heat strips, 50gal water heater, range, 2-3 people, very average use.
No, I have no idea which Generac will be needed.
 
On whole house watch out for mandatory dealer maintenance for warranty. Generac and some others mandate it. AFAIK the only one who warranties owner install and maintenance is Kohler.
 
Matthew K said:
I'd of came and got it;)
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Stewartb said:
My own whole house backup generator is a Honda EU6000iS. I used it when our power went out a few weeks ago. Surge power allows for 10kw spike draws like when the well starts and the furnace is running. It works great. I never worry about the fuel but the starting battery does require attention ahead of the season when I need it. I have a skid mounted 6kw diesel genset at the cabin. Heavy, noisy, smelly, and impossible to move around. My Honda suits my backup requirements to a tee while the diesel fits it’s mission equally as well. I wouldn’t want a diesel as a backup unless its permanently mounted and not expected to move.
Click to expand...

Yeah ours was permanently mounted on a poured concrete pad and wired into the house panel.
 
denverpilot said:
On whole house watch out for mandatory dealer maintenance for warranty. Generac and some others mandate it. AFAIK the only one who warranties owner install and maintenance is Kohler.
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Years ago (like 30) and far away Koehler was a short term solution. Onan would run forever. Generac was not in the domestic market.
 
We had a whole-house generator installed last year, and it's been great insurance...since then, there have been no power failures affecting our neighborhood. :-(

Ours is powered by natural gas, so there aren't any issues regarding fuel storage. Of course, major disaster might disrupt the NG supply, but that hasn't been our experience in ~1-2 week power failures in the past.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Clark1961 said:
Years ago (like 30) and far away Koehler was a short term solution. Onan would run forever. Generac was not in the domestic market.
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Yup. I don’t like how the Kohlers are built, even today. But I just thought I would warn folks that the latest scam is that a “professional” has to change your oil, or no warranty for some of these scummy genset makers.

They needed to find an income stream to multiply the number of installers when they all started selling through the big orange and blue stores. The answer was mandatory maintenance.

Some furnace companies are also following suit.

We had mandatory maintenance on the big stuff for the data centers back in the day, but that made sense. Those things were worth more than my house. And the CEO’s house.

I’m not paying the “rural service fee” and some annual fee to have some idiot drive out and change the oil and filter on the thing, if I install one.

Now that we sold the fifth wheel, I’m tempted to put a legit manual transfer switch in and a Honda 6000 and trade up to it by selling my Honda 3000 and the little 1000.

My propane tank is on the other side of the house from where I would put the genset so we’d have to trench in a new line back there, or drop a second tank back there anyway. So that’s a pain.

Making a little shelter for a Honda would be esier, but then I have to go start it and teach Karen how to throw the transfer switch. I’m sure she could handle it, but that discussion hasn’t happened yet.

All I know is she wants water from the well to flush during blizzards. Haha. I had the fridge and some lights and the pellet stove going ok on the 3000 the last long outage, and not flushing didn’t bother me as much as two days of going to work without a real shower. But my co-workers survived.
 
Quoted from Valflier:
Diesel fuel will go bad if stored too long. Propane is the much better way to go. The engine runs cleaner and no problems with carbs or injectors plugging up.


I started a Russian tank that had been sitting for 11 years and it fired before the crank made a whole turn. Diesel will store for a very long time especially if the fuel tank is well sealed. If the engine is not a super deluxe electronic fuel injected unit it will run on cooking oil as long as you keep the fuel heated. If its one of the newfangled piezo electric injector setups with a high pressure common rail system it might not pay to use less than perfect fuel...just like gasoline. As we know from all the testing done on alcohol contaminated gasolines used in cars the stuff can turn to jello after a few months or completely crosslink into a neat and very durable plastic. For that reason gasoline gennies are out.
Diesel gennies are usually much more efficient if you use them at their rated continuous output which is usally 80% or so of the number on the cover. That means a 10Kilowatt gennie needs to be putting out (house pulling) 8KW for a good part of the time its running. When you run them at low outputs it tends to use more fuel
just like most engines made to run at higher power settings (think about your plane engine). They can coke up as well and if they have a turbo that can be worse. Turbos are great for higher altitudes though so there won't be a 3000 ft limit on use.
Propane is good from a fuel storage standpoint because its liquid under pressure in a very tightly sealed tank so no contamination is likely. This is good. It does burn pretty clean as well so less coking even at lower outputs. The real problem with propane is the heat content of the fuel. Its a lot less than diesel and less than gasoline too so it takes more fuel volume than either one of them to make the same power. When you're limited to the propane tank your house depends on for heat, hot water and cooking it can really screw with you if the gennie is needed very long. I wouldn't use a propane gennie just for that reason alone.
On the other hand, if you have a natural gas hookup at your house you're in luck. As long as the pipeline is pressurized you've got fuel. Natural gas has all the advantages of propane with the added one of availablity. The pipelines don't normally depend on local power to keep running so unless there is a pipeline disaster along with the power failure you've to fuel for your gennie.

Some things to think about.

Frank
 
How is it decided: SE transfer switch or non-SE transfer switch? (Service Entrance main disco)
Is the non SE more flexible or more control?
 
Check with a local electrician. In Anchorage an auto switch requires a much bigger generator. A manual switch with a plug-in cord to a portable gennie has no minimums per code. I keep my generator in the garage and wheel it out when needed. Unroll the cord and plug it into the switch box. Easy.
 
You should ask Joe Chandler.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
How is it decided: SE transfer switch or non-SE transfer switch? (Service Entrance main disco)
Is the non SE more flexible or more control?
Click to expand...

Size of the genset.

SE requires a genset that can handle the entire load.

Sub-panel switch can be set up to only have the genset handle specific loads and the rest go dead, since you wire specific loads into the sub-panel from the main box.

So the choice is usually made by the size of genset purchased.

There’s other ways to do it including manual transfer that throws a certain number of breakers physically off in the main panel including the connetion to mains power (no backfeeding!) and locks them all out mechanically whenever the genset breaker is engaged and active.
 
If you have a gasoline generator, the thing to do is to run it on avgas, which has much longer shelf life.

I'm slowly converting my entire house to propane, and eventually I'll get the propane conversion for my gasoline Generac. The beauty of propane heat (at least in my setup) is that no electricity at all is required for the propane heaters to operate.
 
My manual switch is way simpler than that. Mine selects my power source from grid or generator. That’s all. When my generator is powering the house I can choose what’s hot and what’s not by turning things on or off. If I overload the generator the generator’s breaker will pop. I can run my house normally on the Honda generator and haven’t had any problem, but I’m not throwing big parties or running power tools. The 6000w continuous rating of an inverter generator allows for momentary demand overloads like for well pump and furnace air handler starts. My neighbor opted for an automatic switch. The same electrical contractor did both houses at the same time. Mine was much less expensive (smaller generator, no permanent structure to house it, no fuel storage.) My gennie is much quieter!
 
Dana said:
If you have a gasoline generator, the thing to do is to run it on avgas, which has much longer shelf life.

I'm slowly converting my entire house to propane, and eventually I'll get the propane conversion for my gasoline Generac. The beauty of propane heat (at least in my setup) is that no electricity at all is required for the propane heaters to operate.
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Doesn't the lead cause any issues?
 
BiffJ said:
Quoted from Valflier:
Diesel fuel will go bad if stored too long. Propane is the much better way to go. The engine runs cleaner and no problems with carbs or injectors plugging up.


I started a Russian tank that had been sitting for 11 years and it fired before the crank made a whole turn. Diesel will store for a very long time especially if the fuel tank is well sealed. If the engine is not a super deluxe electronic fuel injected unit it will run on cooking oil as long as you keep the fuel heated. If its one of the newfangled piezo electric injector setups with a high pressure common rail system it might not pay to use less than perfect fuel...just like gasoline. As we know from all the testing done on alcohol contaminated gasolines used in cars the stuff can turn to jello after a few months or completely crosslink into a neat and very durable plastic. For that reason gasoline gennies are out.
Diesel gennies are usually much more efficient if you use them at their rated continuous output which is usally 80% or so of the number on the cover. That means a 10Kilowatt gennie needs to be putting out (house pulling) 8KW for a good part of the time its running. When you run them at low outputs it tends to use more fuel
just like most engines made to run at higher power settings (think about your plane engine). They can coke up as well and if they have a turbo that can be worse. Turbos are great for higher altitudes though so there won't be a 3000 ft limit on use.
Propane is good from a fuel storage standpoint because its liquid under pressure in a very tightly sealed tank so no contamination is likely. This is good. It does burn pretty clean as well so less coking even at lower outputs. The real problem with propane is the heat content of the fuel. Its a lot less than diesel and less than gasoline too so it takes more fuel volume than either one of them to make the same power. When you're limited to the propane tank your house depends on for heat, hot water and cooking it can really screw with you if the gennie is needed very long. I wouldn't use a propane gennie just for that reason alone.
On the other hand, if you have a natural gas hookup at your house you're in luck. As long as the pipeline is pressurized you've got fuel. Natural gas has all the advantages of propane with the added one of availablity. The pipelines don't normally depend on local power to keep running so unless there is a pipeline disaster along with the power failure you've to fuel for your gennie.

Some things to think about.

Frank
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We had no problems with the diesel going bad, but In addition to the automatic testing Mark would run it occasionally to rotate out the fuel. I don't know much about it but I understand climate might affect it? Warm humid climes result in more bio growth than cooler drier??
 
My older 3600 rpm gas generators run fine with occasional tanks of avgas but my Honda 2000iS (variable rpm inverter type) definitely does not. Coincidentally my Honda lawnmower doesn’t, either. Knowing that I never wanted to try it in the 6000iS.
 
denverpilot said:
Yup. I don’t like how the Kohlers are built, even today. But I just thought I would warn folks that the latest scam is that a “professional” has to change your oil, or no warranty for some of these scummy genset makers.

They needed to find an income stream to multiply the number of installers when they all started selling through the big orange and blue stores. The answer was mandatory maintenance.

Some furnace companies are also following suit.

We had mandatory maintenance on the big stuff for the data centers back in the day, but that made sense. Those things were worth more than my house. And the CEO’s house.

I’m not paying the “rural service fee” and some annual fee to have some idiot drive out and change the oil and filter on the thing, if I install one.

Now that we sold the fifth wheel, I’m tempted to put a legit manual transfer switch in and a Honda 6000 and trade up to it by selling my Honda 3000 and the little 1000.

My propane tank is on the other side of the house from where I would put the genset so we’d have to trench in a new line back there, or drop a second tank back there anyway. So that’s a pain.

Making a little shelter for a Honda would be esier, but then I have to go start it and teach Karen how to throw the transfer switch. I’m sure she could handle it, but that discussion hasn’t happened yet.

All I know is she wants water from the well to flush during blizzards. Haha. I had the fridge and some lights and the pellet stove going ok on the 3000 the last long outage, and not flushing didn’t bother me as much as two days of going to work without a real shower. But my co-workers survived.
Click to expand...

Your wife is like me. I need water and being on a well with an electric pump makes me unhappy. Such was the case in '96 with hurricane Fran; our power was out for a week and a half. Learned my lesson: never again. Our next house after we installed the generator, Mark would be out of town half the time and it was great having it kick in without me having to do a thing.

In hindsight of course, we didn't know that wasn't the house we would live the rest of our lives in.
 
I'd go propane, make sure you get a big enough tank for the size of generator so it can provide enough propane to run at full load. The last time I used a generator for a 5 day outage it was tough to find a gas station that had power to pump gas the first day. I did have 3 cars with full tanks, so I could have siphoned gas, but propane seems like good choice for a fixed generator.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Thinking Generac, propane. (installer is the only installer for 150miles and deals with Generac)
How much propane would keep my all electric home running for 5 days?
1400sf, heat pump with heat strips, 50gal water heater, range, 2-3 people, very average use.
No, I have no idea which Generac will be needed.
Click to expand...

Generac has different quality levels on their whole house systems. The cheap air-cooled ones are riding lawnmower engines hitched to a very simple generator head. The liquid cooled units are made in Waukesha and are made for longer run times.

I would do propane. Propane doesn't go bad. Diesels like to work at a high percentage of rated power which rarely happens in whole house situations.

You don't want to oversize the generator. A larger unit will burn more gas at low load situations. Look into a load balancing transfer switch. It makes sure that the HVAC doesn't come on while the well pump is running etc. That way you need a gen that is sized for your biggest load, not one for (biggest + second biggest).

Installers like to just add all the power consumers in your house and tell you that you 'need' that 36kW unit. A more careful analysis and a load balancing transfer switch may allow you to get away with much less installed capacity.

Btw. There are minimum sizes for the propane tank based on genset size. The tank needs to be capable of delivering enough propane vapor.
 
You want propane. You don't have to worry about propane going bad from sitting. Plus, propane will start easier in the cold, burns cleaner, and you can use for other things in your house.

Our house came with a Generac 20kW whole-house generator and a 500 gallon propane tank. We use that tank for our gas range as well. Works nicely all around.
 
It also seems silly to buy a bunch of 100LL to keep around for your generator. Way more expensive.
 
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