NA Pex

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
20,773
Location
west Texas
Display Name

Display name:
Dave Taylor
May have to help/lead a pex renovation on a building, have never done!
Send all instructions, tips, pitfalls.
I think we need a crimping tool?
Can it all be done with Sharkbites/clones of?
 
If you plan on owning that house/building for a while, go copper. Pex sucks.

But if you do go with pex, oversize all your piping by one size. Pex fittings are undersized and will cause pressure loss if you don't.

It's pretty dirt simple to install...but so is copper. Sweating copper is easy.
 
Use the crimper, stay away from the Sharkbite things. PEX is what's in my house - I'm a purist though, and would have preferred copper, but PEX came with the place.
 
I built a 1,000 square foot addition on my house. I built it myself with only contracting out the hot mop roof and the concrete slab. I used PEX for the plumbing with no problems at all. Tim, define "sucks" in this instance.
 
PB (polybutylene) is the stuff to stay away from, and for new work I don't think it's even available anymore. PEX, as far as I know, is pretty much bulletproof. But I'm a copper guy, maybe I have a little tweaker in me.
 
There are 100 year old houses with sweated copper lines and they are still tight. Once we see 100 year old PEX and sharkbite installs i'll reconsider.
 
No mention yet of CPVC - after jack-hammering twice through our concrete slab to repair/replace leaking paper-thin copper, I replumbed the whole house (albeit built 1960) with CPVC (went above grade/slab rather than tunnel under slab - but that's a whole nuther story). Cu + aggressive water + time = TROUBLE.
 
Tim, define "sucks" in this instance.

Google "Pex Lawsuits" and "Pex Recalls" and there'll be plenty of info...like:

Pex Plumbing Liability Litigation

Pex Plumbing Failures

I didn't read either one of these but I filled myself in on the situation a few years ago and, from what I discovered then, decided that I'll never use it.

To me, pex, PVC, etc., are the vinyl siding of the plumbing world. i.e. Temporary construction. I don't like temporary construction. Call me old school...not to the oakum and lead extreme of old school...but old school nonetheless! ;)

Besides, a good copper job is a work of art. Pex meandering aimlessly through walls looks like crap.
 
My only advice is to not force it to make a tight bend, use a 45 or elbow if needed. The plumber that did my house forced a sharp bend which resulted in a kink, that kink turned into a crack after 20 years and flooded my crawl space. Otherwise it's pretty decent and super easy to work with. I too would do cooper if I built my own house but I am a purist also.
 
Noted. Anything can fail. As mentioned above, the PB (gray stuff) has the reputation for not being reliable. The half of my house that I didn't build is plumbed with that. The only repair that I know of that someone had to do in my neighborhood was copper. Our water is alkaline in my area and copper doesn't hold up well. It might be an area thing.
 
Don't allow PEX to be exposed to sunlight.
 
I've had four leaks above & below slab in my 20 y/o house in the copper ells. Builder must have bought them cheap from a foreign land?

PEX is great!
I use the nylon crimp type on my hunter camp cabins, water wells and ranch home. Most anyone else uses he metal crimp type, it seems. The nylon donut type is not uv protected, so go with the metal donut type. No to the sharkbite.
PEX stands up to the elements well; I use it outside too.
 
Yeah, keep the sun off it. I've used PEX and found it OK. I wondered about the strength of it and how well those fittings would hold under pressure, so I made a test piece with a pipe-fitting/PEX nipple on one end and a PEX brass plug on the other. Took it to work and connected the hydraulic hose test setup to it, and ran the pressure up. At some point above 900 psi the PEX tube split. It had swelled to about twice its normal OD before it did that, and the brass fittings never moved at all.

Don't think copper would take that.
 
There's a reason most commercial mechanical design engineers don't allow Pex.

I'm not sure what it is though. :cool: :eek:
 
I like copper. But new copper from....um 'overseas' - aka cheap Chinese ****, isn't the same as old school copper. Also water chemistry and such can affect longevity.

Enjoy.
 
Whoa, whoa! It's not my place; I don't get to decide.
The owners have already chosen Pex.
It is a fait accompli, and therefore moot (for my question) to ponder alternatives!
 
This is in the mountains of Idaho. I think they are trying to address the problems of freezing copper pipes under a building. Just guessin' but I think at 7000', January, Idaho is a bit cold. I know even Pex has its limits but it's also way better than copper.
 
PEX will be fine. Polybutylene, popular in the 1980s, has known problems.
PEX, with an O2 membrane, is the most common piping for in-floor radiant heating systems now.
Like most construction matters the majority of the problems relate to the installation quality, not the materials themselves.
As noted on another post, be generous with your bends and DON'T crimp the pipe.
There are several connection systems; the "shark bite" is probably the one in which one should have least confidence. If you are using a copper ring crimp system try to use non-metallic ells and tees (they have a lower failure rate), and use the "go/no-go" gauge on every connection after completing it.
It is impossible to tell which Chinese made valves are junk and which are good - they all look exactly the same. I use only North American manufactured components - you may have to hunt beyond you local Home Depot to source these.
Try to avoid pipe-to-pipe connections inside walls, especially runs from basement to upper storey; its better to use continuous runs for these.

The PEX system may be more tolerant than copper to Idaho winter freezing, but it's still not a good idea.
 
just for interest's sake, is galvanized considered better by the crowd than copper or Pex?
 
just for interest's sake, is galvanized considered better by the crowd than copper or Pex?

Not for potable water systems. The galvanizing is a zinc coating that is sacrificial... it disappears over time exposing the underlying steel which then rusts if there is any oxy in the water (which there almost always is). I am not even sure that there are any jurisdictions building codes that still allow galvanized steel pipe for water systems?
 
I like copper. But new copper from....um 'overseas' - aka cheap Chinese ****, isn't the same as old school copper. Also water chemistry and such can affect longevity.

Enjoy.

Yep, that "water chemistry" thing got me. House was built in 2003; I bought it last fall. Had a leak in the finished basement ceiling, discovered all of my copper pipes are leaking at multiple random spots between fittings. I'm about to rip it all out and replace with PEX.

Water Quality reports online indicate hardness levels of 30-40 ppm, and pH of 5-5.2 for the three years available. Google "copper pipe corrosion" and see what it takes. Down here, this is our groundwater, not anything that I've been "softening" in the basement.
 
Ph 5.2, you are drinking vinegar.
 
Get PEX and use the proper crimping tool and rings for it. Sharkbite is for the home depot crowd. A properly swaged pex connection can be put in the wall, not so a sharkbite.
 
Get PEX and use the proper crimping tool and rings for it. Sharkbite is for the home depot crowd. A properly swaged pex connection can be put in the wall, not so a sharkbite.

+1. The lawsuits w/ pex were for the old stuff. And it was a huge class action settlement, as it should have been.

DON'T USE SHARKBITE AS A PERMANENT FITTING! When I put a new shower in my wife's bathroom a few years ago the faucet was a tight fit. The guy at HD saw me looking at copper fittings and asked what I was doing, then introduced me to Shark Bite. I was impressed at how easy it was. And it worked great!

Right up until a few months ago when I heard water running when it shouldn't have been. Looked around and found the floor wet upstairs, shut the water off ASAP and tore into the wall. Sure enough, the Shark Bite fitting that had held great for maybe 3 years had, for no reason, released its tension on the line. The guy at HD said, "huh, I've never seen a Shark Bite failure before" and offered to replace the fitting. Thanks, but no. They have a warranty, but it covers only fitting replacement, and only for 25 years.
 
I had copper and after fighting pinhole leaks I tore it all out. Was going to go with Pex, but decided CPVC was just as good and a fraction of the cost. Mostly straight runs though.
 
House was built with underground Polybutylene.
4 major leaks over 20 years.
Got tired of the water (4th leak) bubbling up through the concrete floor and damaging newly installed carpet, so cut it off at the meter and abandoned in place.
Replaced with PEX in the attic ( due to combination of re-plumb time, expense, heat and access restrictions in the attic, did PEX over copper)
Not sure whether water chemistry was brought up, although our water is very hard and alkaline. (related to our soil caliche).
PEX was put in 10 years ago and so far -0- problems. Was swagged, not sharkbitten
 
Reading all these posts makes me ponder.....are we really that advanced a civilization if we still cannot come up with problem-free plumbing materials and methods?
 
Reading all these posts makes me ponder.....are we really that advanced a civilization if we still cannot come up with problem-free plumbing materials and methods?

We have. Lead works well. As long as the water is hard enough and non-corrosive. Those service lines they are ripping out in Flint are 100 years old.

Copper brazed with silver is near indestructible (again assuming you don't pump vinegar through it). But nobody does that anymore as you need a acetylene torch and enough room to work.
 
Reading all these posts makes me ponder.....are we really that advanced a civilization if we still cannot come up with problem-free plumbing materials and methods?
It's not that as much as it's the fact that almost all residential contractors are corner cutting scum buckets.
 
Copper pinholes are almost always crappy installation. No pipe is safe from idiots. I had a house with copper pipe that was built in 1974 and I lived there from 1989 to 2013. In all that time I had exactly one leak in the copper pipe and that was where the pipe touched a metal hangar. I suspect we had a little dissimilar metal corrosion going there. Sweating copper (provided the pipes are not full of water) is a no brainer for someone whose willing to take a minute and learn how to do it properly. Lots of lead-free plumbing solders out there (usually tin-silver or tin-antimony alloys).

That being said, I've got PEX. Mostly because the price is much better these days than copper (though copper might be coming back) and it lends itself to some nice things like the common manifold system.

Yep, CPVC is easy-peasy. I use that for plumbing up my wife's turtle aquarium. You cut it with a pair of sheers and you can glue it wet or dry together in seconds and you can put pressure on it almost immediately.

But as pointed out, Sharkbite is for the duffer home center crowd. Whatever plumbing system you use, use the manufacturer recommended connections (sweating copper, the CORRECT solvent glue for plastics...note that each of PVC, CPVC, ABS, etc... has it's own glue and sometimes cleaner, and the right crimp fittings for PEX).
 
Reading all these posts makes me ponder.....are we really that advanced a civilization if we still cannot come up with problem-free plumbing materials and methods?

I've had far more problems with the tap and shower valves/fittings themselves than piping. Too many indoor plumbing fixtures are made in China now and they are mostly junk.
Our water treatment plant is plumbed with copper and we have had to replace virtually every copper ell because of pinhole leaks developing on the bend. That's not an installation issue; it's a QC issue with the fitting itself. We can't tell at the building supply store whether we are getting American made fittings or imported - they look exactly the same and they seem to buy them from whomever is cheapest at the time. I am pretty sure all the original copper ells were from Asia. More of our treatment plant is being converted to PEX.
 
You guys that are having troubles with Sharkbites, are you using the inserts that go into the Pex to back it up before you put the fitting together? A friend was having some problems with leaking, and when we took his couplings apart, we found who ever installed seemed to use the inserts when they felt like it. The ones with the inserts didn't have problems.

My copper would spring pinholes in the middle of straight runs with no hangers, in ells, no obvious rhyme or reason. Pretty much only in cold water though. PH is about 7.1. I think it was just lousy pipe, installed when the house was built in the early 60's.

Chinese brass sucks.
 
Call me old school...not to the oakum and lead extreme of old school...but old school nonetheless! ;)

I'm a big fan of copper for potable water. But cast iron and oakum sucks, sez this owner of a 45 year old house with cast iron sanitary plumbing that is slowly (and expensively) evolving back to iron oxide.
 
Dave said he had no choice in this case. It's not for him and the owner wants Pex. So be it.

In my case, when the majority of the commercial project design firms I deal with quit putting on the plans "NO PEX" in big bold letters, I'll consider it further.
 
If it's someoen else's building, he's got no business working on the plumbing in most places, than Joe the Plumber sans a commercial certificate should be flying passengers for hire.
 
Just an aside, I just came home to a busted water main under the house this past week. Luckily it was under the 1/3 of my home which is on a crawlspace foundation so no concrete will need to be jack-hammered. The old line (galvanized pipe) had just rusted through from being in the ground for several decades, so they are cutting it out and throwing new line in. They offered to run a temporary PEX line to restore water for the weekend, but it was going to take several hours of work and they'd just bore a hole in the brick/foundation to pass it through so I declined. I would rather them spend that time fixing the problem than making a temporary work-around.
 
My daughter has some galvanized in the supply side of her house. I hate to even look at that pipe. You touch it and it likely breaks (the house is 75+ years old). At least nobody is putting that stuff in new anymore.
 
Back
Top