[NA-ish] Experimental vehicles

[ArrowFlyer86]

My nephew asked me a question that I didn't have a good answer for and it's kind of bugged me since.
I was telling him about experimental airplanes and he asked why don't we see experimental cars on the road?

Here's my logic:
- I'd estimate more people are interested in cars than planes by at least a factor of 50:1
- A drivers license is pretty much a given for most people, and requires virtually no skill or investment relative to that of a pilot
- The risk in building an experimental car "wrong" is a lot lower than that of building+flight testing an experimental aircraft with no proven history of being able to... you know... fly.
- Lots of people clearly feel comfortable wrenching on their cars and extensively modifying them in some cases (for racing/to make them better for off-roading/etc). Even on our boards here we have guys like Ted, Gary W and others who seem to have backgrounds working on cars (I know there's many more, too).

So why don't we see experimental cars driving around? Like built from scratch using the motor of your pick, the interior, etc... Just like building an aircraft from scratch. A car where you know how everything works because you built it yourself from the ground up.
Is it due to regulations? Req'd safety standards? Emissions requirements? Insurance? Difficulty in getting custom parts? Or more parts that go into a car? I really don't know.

Or are existing cars are just too inexpensive, where it doesn't make sense to build piece-by-piece from the ground up as opposed to modifying them?

 

[Jim K]

There are a few that are very analogous to EAB:

Complete Kit - Factory Five Racing

Mk4 Roadster Complete Kit: $20,990 Over the years we have expanded our chassis kit to include factory-new parts as well.…

www.factoryfive.com

@Ted has one that there's a LONG thread around here about

I think the main issue is that cars are SO cheap, and pretty unregulated. Unlike airplanes, you can pretty much do what you want to them with no oversight, so that removes one of the big draws of EAB.

 

[wanttaja]

I think the main issue is that cars are SO cheap, and pretty unregulated. Unlike airplanes, you can pretty much do what you want to them with no oversight, so that removes one of the big draws of EAB.

Plus, the operating environment for a car is much, MUCH harsher than an airplane. Compare the suspension of a typical car to that of a typical homebuilt. Some airplanes, like the Piper Vagabond and Bowers Fly Baby, don't even HAVE suspension. The tires are the only thing absorbing runway loads. Look at the complexity required for steering vs. an airplane. AND the experimental car has to resist getting slammed around by potholes, etc.

There always have been experimental cars...though, typically, the term "Hot Rod" is in play. These generally take an existing car and modify it, rather than starting from scratch. That way, the major operational elements are already solved.

It's more difficult nowadays, as state laws restrict things like emissions and safety equipment.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[eman1200]

aren't kit cars kinda sorta like experimental cars?

 

[Bell206]

So why don't we see experimental cars driving around?

There are 1000s on the roads. Except they're called kit or replica cars. But from what I heard, there was a recent change to the law that expands the kit/replica rules to allow companies to produce small volumes of kit/replica cars and sell them. So you may start to see more replica cars in the future.

 

[Rene]

 

[Racerx]

Tons of hot rods have been re-engined. To do the same with a plane you need an stc or somehow kick it into experimental.

Looked at all the jacked up trucks. Only reg would be bumper height. Try doing the same with an airplane.

As far as kits...they're out there. But I think one reason for kits not being so popular is the complex curves which necessitates the use of fiberglass. And how relatively inexpensive cars are. You see kit or experimental boats all the time. I've been toying with the idea of building one of those single seat micro jet boats

 

[eman1200]

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

aren't kit cars kinda sorta like experimental cars?

There are 1000s on the roads. Except they're called kit or replica cars. But from what I heard, there was a recent change to the law that expands the kit/replica rules to allow companies to produce small volumes of kit/replica cars and sell them. So you may start to see more replica cars in the future.

Gotcha. I've heard of body kits, but I'm not familiar with entire kit cars. As a proportion of total cars they must represent a super, super tiny fraction; and I'm sort of contrasting that to EAB being a respectable portion of the total GA fleet.

Plus, the operating environment for a car is much, MUCH harsher than an airplane. Compare the suspension of a typical car to that of a typical homebuilt. Some airplanes, like the Piper Vagabond and Bowers Fly Baby, don't even HAVE suspension. The tires are the only thing absorbing runway loads. Look at the complexity required for steering vs. an airplane. AND the experimental car has to resist getting slammed around by potholes, etc.

There always have been experimental cars...though, typically, the term "Hot Rod" is in play. These generally take an existing car and modify it, rather than starting from scratch. That way, the major operational elements are already solved.

It's more difficult nowadays, as state laws restrict things like emissions and safety equipment.

Ron Wanttaja

I guess there are so many examples of cars built well, that even if you were "starting from scratch" you'd have myriad examples of how to do it.
And it seems like there's so many manufacturers who make car parts, that there'd be lots of suppliers who could sell you things like suspension/etc so that you don't have to reinvent that particular wheel yourself. In short, with cars it seems you'd have a lot more opportunities to buy vs build during your design journey. But this is all just speculation from a layman

 

[asicer]

I think the main issue is that cars are SO cheap, and pretty unregulated.

I wouldn't say "unregulated", more like a very different regulatory environment but in some ways just as onerous. For example, the original builder of my Caterham (which I no longer have) registered it as an "English Ford" by transferring the data plate apparently from an Anglia or Cortina.

 

[Zeldman]

Looked at all the jacked up trucks. Only reg would be bumper height.

There is a motor vehicle code that sets minimum/maximum headlight range. I do not have it right now.

I would consider race cars as experimental. And there were a few race cars I really wish I had never gotten in. Same reason I will not get into any experimental airplane unless I am very knowledgeable of the builder.

 

[Jim K]

I wouldn't say "unregulated", more like a very different regulatory environment but in some ways just as onerous. For example, the original builder of my Caterham (which I no longer have) registered it as an "English Ford" by transferring the data plate apparently from an Anglia or Cortina.

Very location dependent. Where I live, there is no inspection requirement of any kind, and you can more or less do what you want. The only enforcement of the vehicle code is if it's so blatant that a cop is willing to go to the effort to pull you over.

Edit: I will say that if you build a car from scratch, it must be inspected by the police equivalent of a DAR. They are mainly looking for stolen parts, and then hitting the high points...turn signals, mirrors, horn etc.

 

[Daleandee]

As a young teenager many of us with empty pockets had to put together what we could find to drive.

Later in life when I sold auto parts I found a number of folks that would change out complete drivelines in cars so going into the parking lot and looking under the hood was sometimes required.

Perhaps they had a nice Ford Galaxie with a blown engine. No problem to break out the torch & welder and put the engine and trans out of a Buick Riviera in the thing. Just have to weld up some mounts along with a custom drive shaft ...

 

[DaleB]

It can be done, and people have done and continue to do it, as has been observed already. I don't think a new "experimental" or at least non factory built car is quite as common as an experimental airplane, partly because no matter what I want my dream car to look or perform like, I can probably find a factory-built close match that can readily be be modified to suit. Doing that with airplanes... good luck.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

It can be done, and people have done and continue to do it, as has been observed already. I don't think a new "experimental" or at least non factory built car is quite as common as an experimental airplane, partly because no matter what I want my dream car to look or perform like, I can probably find a factory-built close match that can readily be be modified to suit. Doing that with airplanes... good luck.

That's a good point. Unless you're building some super high performance race car, your specs probably aren't going to be materially better than something you can already buy.
Still, thinking about it, I suppose I would have guessed given the sheer number of gearheads, car mechanics and auto enthusiasts that there would be more that attempt it. If not for some practical improvement over existing designs than just for personal edification and to show a ground-up understanding of how everything works... And the pride of being like: "this is a one of a kind car".

Afterall, there's plenty of people who build kit/homebuilt airplanes not as some dramatic improvement over existing options, but for the joy of building and being a part of the entire process from start to finish.

 

[DaleB]

That's a good point. Unless you're building some super high performance race car, your specs probably aren't going to be materially better than something you can already buy.
Still, thinking about it, I suppose I would have guessed given the sheer number of gearheads, car mechanics and auto enthusiasts that there would be more that attempt it.

There probably are a lot more than we hear about. Most people have not idea about experimental airplanes because they're not involved in any aspect of it. Ditto for custom built cars. I'd guess that vast majority of them spend all but a few hours a year hidden away in a garage, and if you're not involved in clubs or online forums where people with that kind of interest gather, you're just not going to hear about it.

Suspect the SEMA show is their equivalent of Oshkosh.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

There probably are a lot more than we hear about. Most people have not idea about experimental airplanes because they're not involved in any aspect of it. Ditto for custom built cars. I'd guess that vast majority of them spend all but a few hours a year hidden away in a garage, and if you're not involved in clubs or online forums where people with that kind of interest gather, you're just not going to hear about it.

Suspect the SEMA show is their equivalent of Oshkosh.

That's fair.

I suppose I'm assessing from the perspective of someone who just doesn't see any driving on the open roads.

 

[mondtster]

I suppose I'm assessing from the perspective of someone who just doesn't see any driving on the open roads.

You likely have seen some prototype and kit cars, you just don't recognize them as such.

 

[mondtster]

Very location dependent. Where I live, there is no inspection requirement of any kind, and you can more or less do what you want. The only enforcement of the vehicle code is if it's so blatant that a cop is willing to go to the effort to pull you over.

While there may not be any enforcement in many US locations, vehicle manufacturers have plenty of regulations that must be followed. Lighting, crashworthiness, and emissions are just some of them. Wonder why all new cars have backup cameras and tire pressure monitors? It isn't because that's what people want, it is because those are mandates. Any alteration mechanically or electronically to an engine is likely to result in the equivalence of an unairworthy aircraft. But nobody seems to think in those terms, because the rules are so loosely enforced, so they don't realize that what they're doing is creating themselves a problem if it were to ever be strictly enforced.

I'm glad for the lack of enforcement however, as I only have one road going vehicle that I'm confident would pass.

 

[DaleB]

While there may not be any enforcement in many US locations, vehicle manufacturers have plenty of regulations that must be followed. Lighting, crashworthiness, and emissions are just some of them. Wonder why all new cars have backup cameras and tire pressure monitors? It isn't because that's what people want, it is because those are mandates. Any alteration mechanically or electronically to an engine is likely to result in the equivalence of an unairworthy aircraft. But nobody seems to think in those terms, because the rules are so loosely enforced, so they don't realize that what they're doing is creating themselves a problem if it were to ever be strictly enforced.

I'm glad for the lack of enforcement however, as I only have one road going vehicle that I'm confident would pass.

If cars were governed by rules anywhere even remotely close to aircraft, we'd have a very robust public transportation system in this country.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Most of the kit vehicles I find online aren’t what I would call “daily drivers,” but rather performance or show vehicles of some sort.

 

[Zeldman]

If cars were governed by rules anywhere even remotely close to aircraft, we'd have a very robust public transportation system in this country.

And we would still be driving cars made in the 70s.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Google FactoryFive Racing. They've got at least 5 or 6 distinct kits that are street legal and the layman probably wouldn't know they were kits if built properly. However, people don't normally daily drive stuff like that because they don't have the safety features and creature comforts of modern mass-manufactured vehicles. Driving a Shelby Cobra kit car is fine for a weekend, but not quite so enjoyable in less-than-ideal weather on the daily commute.

 

[RussR]

Most of the kit vehicles I find online aren’t what I would call “daily drivers,” but rather performance or show vehicles of some sort.

Right. Or some other "fun" car that's completely impractical for daily use. So they're driven on the weekends, pretty much like most kit built airplanes.

Maybe we don't see the cars very much because we're not out driving where and when they are driving.

 

[Racerx]

Would this qualify as experimental? 1973 international with a hellcat engine. Summit truck bodies built it to take to shows. Sold me.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Back in the 70's when I was growing up, kit cars were way more common. The VW beetle was the platform of choice. It was dirt cheap, mechanically simple, and infinitely moddable. Remember Baha bugs? Bricklin?

But except for really specialized applications like racing, it just doesn't make sense to fabricate from the ground up. No matter what you want, there is an existing stock vehicle that can be fixed up and modded to your heart's content.

If you did build one from scratch to be street legal, how does one obtain a VIN to register with?

 

[asicer]

If you did build one from scratch to be street legal, how does one obtain a VIN to register with?

You mean besides transferring an existing data plate?

 

[SoonerAviator]

Back in the 70's when I was growing up, kit cars were way more common. The VW beetle was the platform of choice. It was dirt cheap, mechanically simple, and infinitely moddable. Remember Baha bugs? Bricklin?

But except for really specialized applications like racing, it just doesn't make sense to fabricate from the ground up. No matter what you want, there is an existing stock vehicle that can be fixed up and modded to your heart's content.

If you did build one from scratch to be street legal, how does one obtain a VIN to register with?

Most every state has a "homebuilt" registration option where you assign it a VIN and it goes through a basic safety inspection for proper lighting/horn/seatbelts/wipers/etc.

 

[Bell206]

If cars were governed by rules anywhere even remotely close to aircraft, we'd have a very robust public transportation system in this country.

I think you'll find the rules are somewhat close in scope right now once you understand the differences. For example, one of the main differences is the NHTSA (i.e., motor vehicle FAA) rules do not require motor vehicles to be maintained to a minimum Federal "certification" standard so there's no requirement to have federally certified individuals (i.e., A&P, IA) to perform that work. And once you remove the FAA rules that are required to maintain certain international agreements (i.e., ICAO) you'll find the NHTSA rules may even be a bit stricter in some cases. But since these rules have limited Federal enforcement or violation standards, it gives the appearance the rules in general are lesser than aviation rules. However, just ask GM or Honda how they feel when the NHTSA gives them a friendly "ramp check."

For your viewing pleasure:
NHTSA
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/subtitle-B/chapter-V

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Zoom in to the quarter window…



Home built.



It’s a hybrid. It burns gas AND rubber.

 

[FormerHangie]

I'm guessing it's safe to say that the Van's RV two seaters are the most popular EAB airplanes. The closest thing to that in the autmotive world, IMO, would be a Subaru BRZ or Toyota 86. Either of those can be had new for around $35,000. If you could buy a new RV-7 for the same amount of money, how many people would still build?

 

[wanttaja]

Another aspect: if someone needs to build their own car to save money, they probably don't have access to the tools necessary. Plus, if they live in an apartment, they'll have to rent a garage to build it in.....

Ron Wanttaja

 

[MauleSkinner]

Google FactoryFive Racing.

I was looking at their trucks earlier…I could see myself in the ‘35 Hot Rod Truck, and I could probably change the water pump alongside the road. maybe rig up some kind of rumble seat for the grandkids.

 

[Salty]

Why build a chassis from scratch when you can buy one that’s a good fit for your project and do whatever you want with it? Few are building custom aircraft engines, same with cars. Pick the parts, bolt them together, and fabricate your body and good to go. You can’t really do that with an aircraft and be amatuer built. You gotta fabricate 51%. It’s not apples to apples.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I was looking at their trucks earlier…I could see myself in the ‘35 Hot Rod Truck, and I could probably change the water pump alongside the road. maybe rig up some kind of rumble seat for the grandkids.

Well the good part about their kits (as @Ted knows) is that they offer standard setups for a number of popular engine options, both vintage and modern. If you want to go simple old school points and carb, they got you. You want to throw a GT500 Supercharged Coyote in it? They've probably got some engine/trans mount options for it.

 

[Dana]

At one time a lot of British sports cars were available in kit form; it was a tax dodge to avoid taxes on new cars.

There used to be quite a few kit cars based on a VW Beetle chassis. It was also (may still be) possible to build a complete Model T with parts from J. C. Whitney.

But the laws about it vary from state to state.

 

[Ted]

I think most of the major points have been covered above already. I'll add a couple (since I've been tagged twice already ).

Cost, you can spend as much as you want, but it's hard to build a Factory Five Cobra for under $30k. I see people spend $75k all the time, I think my current number is around $40k, and while it's not painted yet (something I intend to do myself) that's more or less done otherwise. For that, I have a car with no roof/top of any sort, making it very much a fair weather machine. It has no cruise control, no safety features, power nothing. This is exactly what I was going for, mind you, but it's the sort of thing that it's really not something you can use as a daily driver unless you live in Southern California. Some people add cruise control and power brakes/steering.

But even if you did live there, getting insurance that allows you to use it for a daily driver may be difficult. Insurance for these things at all is difficult to find, and most of the time it's supposed to be used as a "pleasure use only" car, something that you just take out on nice days and not something you take to work, to run errands, things like that.

When I decided on the Cobra I'd also considered the Type 65 coupe. That's a car that I think could be more usable as a daily driver, but I don't know how well it keeps rain out. But, you'd still need to make sure your insurance was appropriate, and for the cost you'd have in one of those (they're more than the Cobras), you're then looking enough that you could buy a lot of sports cars that will probably be higher performance in most respects.

With all the above said, the driving experience of the Cobra is fantastic, it's absolutely my favorite car to drive. But, there is a time limit on how long I want to drive it for.

 

[DaleB]

I think you'll find the rules are somewhat close in scope right now once you understand the differences. For example, one of the main differences is the NHTSA (i.e., motor vehicle FAA) rules do not require motor vehicles to be maintained to a minimum Federal "certification" standard so there's no requirement to have federally certified individuals (i.e., A&P, IA) to perform that work.

I’m not sure how a person would call it “close in scope” other than the requirements for design and manufacture of new vehicles. There are very, very few requirements to maintain the factory configuration of a car once it leaves the factory, and even less enforcement of what few rules there are. It’s illegal (for example) to install loud mufflers on a motorcycle, or to remove or bypass emission controls on cars and trucks, yet it’s commonly done and there’s virtually no inspection or enforcement in most places - and effectively none at the federal level. On top of that, there’s really no (meaningful, enforced, or even well understood) restrictions on modifications to the wheels, tires, suspension, steering, and so on.

If FAA style rules were place for cars, you’d be unable to do much more than put a bumper sticker on your car or truck, let alone swap out wheels or install an aftermarket bike rack without an engineering study or buying the STC to go with it. There are good reasons that most people don't own airplanes, but do own cars.

 

[Bell206]

I’m not sure how a person would call it “close in scope” other than the requirements for design and manufacture of new vehicles.

I believe I stated once a person understood the differences. There's no way to compare them unless you remove the outside requirements the FAA rules have that the NHTSA rules dont have. Remove that influence then compare them.

 

[Brad W]

Seems to me there are a lot more "experimentally modified" things on the road than most folks would recognize.

What percentage of pickup trucks...especially 4x4's... have lift kits, leveling kits, and other significant suspension mods? And a lot of these are installed by not exactly professional mechanics or engineers...maybe don't follow the kit manufacturer's instructions to the letter.... etc.
In terms of legit in-depth factory testing I'd reckon that most or all of these kits and modifications are in some way the result of Star Trek engineering...."going where no man has gone before"
Then there are lighting mods, crazy tires and wheels that are a far departure from anything designed and tested for the model.
...and all sorts of other things
These things are passing within feet of us every day and closing velocities well over 100MPH

Another example....I'm currently watching a youtube series of a person putting a Toyota pick-up truck V-8 engine in an old 70's vintage Toyota Celica... a car just like the one my dad had for a while when I was a kid. Personally I'd like to see her to a legit restoration instead of this heavily modified thing, but it is interesting. She's an ex air force airframe mechanic and seems to do everything "equal or better than" the right way. A real artist.

I remember when I was a kid there seemed to be a lot of those dune buggy type things. As I understand it those were generally not plans built, but more like kits to modify a VW bug chassis, etc. It is interesting that we don't see things like that as much now.