My (ex) instructor called me and nagged me because..

We all have to have personal minimums. Let's not judge each others' choices.

For me, 5 gallons is way, way too low, even in in an efficient plane like this. Among other things, I don't trust fuel gauges to be that accurate, nor theoretical calculations on fuel burn based on time, distance, throttle.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
We all have to have personal minimums. Let's not judge each others' choices.

For me, 5 gallons is way, way too low, even in in an efficient plane like this. Among other things, I don't trust fuel gauges to be that accurate, nor theoretical calculations on fuel burn based on time, distance, throttle.
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What about in a plane that burns 5 gph? or 3?

Maybe you need to brush up on your calculations. On a 1000nm trip I was within 0.2 gallons of what I was supposed to have been at based on nothing but a watch and dry tanking.
 
EdFred said:
What about in a plane that burns 5 gph? or 3?

Maybe you need to brush up on your calculations. On a 1000nm trip I was within 0.2 gallons of what I was supposed to have been at based on nothing but a watch and dry tanking.
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Like I said, these are my personal minimums, not yours. As a mathematician and mental math wizard, I don't need to brush up on calculations. Just wouldn't do it. I have been in too many flying circumstances where some unknown factor hit me from the side that through theory out the window.

I'm also the kinda' guy who does a complete pre-flight after the $500 hamburger, including a fuel sample even if I didn't re-fuel. Go figure. What a woooosss I am.

Feel free to have your own personal minimums...no criticism coming from me!
 
I wish I could remember the stats the guy at Osh said.

It was a surprising number of accidents happen within a very close range of the destination airport.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
We all have to have personal minimums. Let's not judge each others' choices.

For me, 5 gallons is way, way too low, even in in an efficient plane like this. Among other things, I don't trust fuel gauges to be that accurate, nor theoretical calculations on fuel burn based on time, distance, throttle.
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One thing the OP wanted to know was if it was right of the instructor to call him on the phone and chew his butt.

Perhaps this was a paternalistic impulse on the instructors part, or maybe he is a self appointed egotistical safety cop.

Either way, after offering a reason why what was done was done, if he was still copping an attitude , it would be time to tell him , in so many words, to F off.
 
My 2 cents,

While you may not have done anything wrong, the fact that your ex-instructor followed up with you the next day (especially since you are no longer his student) should give you pause on whether you will do that again in the future. Forget the fact that he may have gone about it the wrong way. You seem to be a conscientious new pilot, but I do sense a small amount of over-confidence. You seem to be looking for others to tell you that you were completely in the right and he had no reason to be concerned.

In the end…you are entirely in the right to consistently land with minimum legal reserves as much as you like. It's also YOU that will deal with the consequence of running out of fuel, regardless of how "ok" the planning looked before you departed on your flight.
 
mr_happyland said:
My 2 cents,

While you may not have done anything wrong, the fact that your ex-instructor followed up with you the next day (especially since you are no longer his student) should give you pause on whether you will do that again in the future. Forget the fact that he may have gone about it the wrong way. You seem to be a conscientious new pilot, but I do sense a small amount of over-confidence. You seem to be looking for others to tell you that you were completely in the right and he had no reason to be concerned.

In the end…you are entirely in the right to consistently land with minimum legal reserves as much as you like. It's also YOU that will deal with the consequence of running out of fuel, regardless of how "ok" the planning looked before you departed on your flight.
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Did you read what he wrote? He didn't just plan a flight and hoped everything would turn out all right.

Perhaps the instructor assumed the worse about a low time pilot's methodology and decision making ability. The instructor made the mistake of calling the OP with a righteous attitude, which is difficult for some to back away from when proven wrong.
 
MarcoDA40 said:
I apologize for the lack of info.

The airplane was a DA20, burning 8 gallons per hour.
And yes, I have a private certificate.
Looking back and reading you guys comments, I know he was looking out for me and when on the phone with him I even thanked him for his phone call, it was just the way he approached me that bothered me..
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He probably felt he failed you and you should have been wise enough not to pull this without being told about it. (It wasn't too bright.) I'd be glad he cared enough to follow up on it. I would not be so sensitive . Move on.
 
vintage cessna said:
Did you read what he wrote? He didn't just plan a flight and hoped everything would turn out all right.

Perhaps the instructor assumed the worse about a low time pilot's methodology and decision making ability. The instructor made the mistake of calling the OP with a righteous attitude, which is difficult for some to back away from when proven wrong.
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Of course I read it. He planned it out and it seems after the fact he was comfortable landing with minimum fuel reserves….supposedly just like he planned. To each his own. Like I said…in the end it's his neck on the line, not mine or yours.

i agree, the former instructor could have handled it different…but that's not really the meat of what this thread is about.
 
mr_happyland said:
Of course I read it. He planned it out and it seems after the fact he was comfortable landing with minimum fuel reserves….supposedly just like he planned. To each his own. Like I said…in the end it's his neck on the line, not mine or yours.

i agree, the former instructor could have handled it different…but that's not really the meat of what this thread is about.
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A guess this thread has different themes to different people. Personally, I wouldn't appreciate being ambushed with a phone call out of the blue.

A common theme seems to be everyone explaining what their own comfort level is. Everything the OP did to prevent becoming a statistic seems to be overlooked or brushed aside and replaced with irrelevant experiences.

I for one, would see it as a total waste of time and resources over nighting it for no valid reason. To each his own.
 
RV10flyer said:
This Dad thought he had sufficient fuel for the flight and night landing. Some of us may seem overly cautious with an hour of fuel remaining. I am sure Mom wishes Dad had landed to refuel.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/..._plane-crash-father-and-daughter-spring-break
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Each to their own... I may not opt to land with five gallons either, but the fact remains the OP did nothing wrong. He was aware of his fuel situation at all times.
The irony is, it's likely the very same instructor that taught him the "30 min day VFR" rule.
 
RV10flyer said:
This Dad thought he had sufficient fuel for the flight and night landing. Some of us may seem overly cautious with an hour of fuel remaining. I am sure Mom wishes Dad had landed to refuel.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/..._plane-crash-father-and-daughter-spring-break
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We have no idea what the Dad thought or what he did. We do of the flight we have been discussing, so I don't see how the referenced story is relevant.

Whatever your comfort level is, is OK with me . I've just analyzed one particular situation and not extrapolated beyond that. I really don't see any red flags in this one particular case.
 
Any way to delete this thread?

All I was asking was if my old CFI was justified to call me and chew me out over what I felt was a safe flight. I answered the phone expecting a "how was your flight?" but no, I answer to "So you landed with 5 gallons left, isnt that cutting it close?" After I haven't seen the guy in over 3 months.. Once again, your own experiences and personal minimums might be different than mine, but that doesnt make you or me, right or wrong.
If I remember correctly, my old CFI told me that his personal minimums to pop out of the clouds on an instrument approach was 800ft AGL.. well if I were to land poping out at 200ft AGL and he were to find out somehow..(assuming i was IR) would it be okay for him to call me and tell me I was cutting it too close? just because my personal minimums are different than his?
 
We were all taught the 30 minute rule. I was also taught the 1 hour rule.

"Renter certifies that he has conducted a thorough preflight analysis of the conditions affecting his flight, including, but not limited to, a calculation of the runway length required for takeoff and landing, the fuel burn expected and the endurance of the fuel on board, and has received a weather briefing appropriate to his flight. The Renter further certifies that, as a result of his or her calculation, he or she has sufficient fuel on board to land with a minimum reserve of no less than one (1) hour of fuel remaining."
 
MarcoDA40 said:
Any way to delete this thread?

All I was asking was if my old CFI was justified to call me and chew me out over what I felt was a safe flight. I answered the phone expecting a "how was your flight?" but no, I answer to "So you landed with 5 gallons left, isnt that cutting it close?" After I haven't seen the guy in over 3 months.. Once again, your own experiences and personal minimums might be different than mine, but that doesnt make you or me, right or wrong.
If I remember correctly, my old CFI told me that his personal minimums to pop out of the clouds on an instrument approach was 800ft AGL.. well if I were to land poping out at 200ft AGL and he were to find out somehow..(assuming i was IR) would it be okay for him to call me and tell me I was cutting it too close? just because my personal minimums are different than his?
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I support your position 100%. But, my advice would be don't venture into the five gallon / low IFR realm.
 
MarcoDA40 said:
Any way to delete this thread?

All I was asking was if my old CFI was justified to call me and chew me out over what I felt was a safe flight. I answered the phone expecting a "how was your flight?" but no, I answer to "So you landed with 5 gallons left, isnt that cutting it close?" After I haven't seen the guy in over 3 months.. Once again, your own experiences and personal minimums might be different than mine, but that doesnt make you or me, right or wrong.
If I remember correctly, my old CFI told me that his personal minimums to pop out of the clouds on an instrument approach was 800ft AGL.. well if I were to land poping out at 200ft AGL and he were to find out somehow..(assuming i was IR) would it be okay for him to call me and tell me I was cutting it too close? just because my personal minimums are different than his?
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Obviously, in his mind he felt justified. I don't know much about your former instructor, but he sounds like the type you may tolerate for a while and then eventually tell him to go pound sand.
 
Marco,

FWIW I am on your side. Seems I'm the only one (or two).

As an instructor I would have probably approached it this way:












.
 
RV10flyer said:
We were all taught the 30 minute rule. I was also taught the 1 hour rule.

"Renter certifies that he has conducted a thorough preflight analysis of the conditions affecting his flight, including, but not limited to, a calculation of the runway length required for takeoff and landing, the fuel burn expected and the endurance of the fuel on board, and has received a weather briefing appropriate to his flight. The Renter further certifies that, as a result of his or her calculation, he or she has sufficient fuel on board to land with a minimum reserve of no less than one (1) hour of fuel remaining."
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Never had that rule where I rented from.
 
Point is, I'm not sure how one can criticize someone for playing by the rules?? Somehow people think their rules should dictate???
 
I don't think 5 gallons would even move the crummy needles on mine. I wouldn't have a clue how much fuel is in there.

I know once and only once I got real low on fuel and made a hasty beeline direct to Plainview. Headwinds killed me all along the route and I just ran low out in the middle of nowhere out of plain ol' dumbassery.

When I was turning downwind the engine kicked, but fired back up when I leveled. I flew a tight pattern and landed post-haste only to see a control tower and thought I was toast because I had only broadcasted on unicom. To my relief the lineman said "towers been closed for a while." :happydance:
 
txflyer said:
I don't think 5 gallons would even move the crummy needles on mine. I wouldn't have a clue how much fuel is in there.

I know once and only once I got real low on fuel and made a hasty beeline direct to Plainview. Headwinds killed me all along the route and I just ran low out in the middle of nowhere out of plain ol' dumbassery.

When I was turning downwind the engine kicked, but fired back up when I leveled. I flew a tight pattern and landed post-haste only to see a control tower and thought I was toast because I had only broadcasted on unicom. To my relief the lineman said "towers been closed for a while." :happydance:
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Perhaps you should get your crummy needles adjusted?
 
Delete the thread?! Oh no, this has been fun reading. Would have been even more fun if the title had been:

"My ex instructor called to give me a hard time,,,i told him to F@@@ Off. That ok?". :D

MarcoDA40 said:
Any way to delete this thread?
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I don't disagree with the regs.....they are what they are for a reason. But I will throw out this thought to ponder.....and I realize weather doesn't sound like a factor in this case, so I am just talking in general terms for discussion sake

45 mins reserve in a typical light single does not equal 45 mins reserve in a jet or higher performance aircraft. I know serious weather is often pretty localized, but I've flown on plenty of days were 45 mins at 80 knots or so would not get me out of a local weather system that was socking in an entire area. Pretty different proposition in an aircraft that can execute a no kidding bingo/divert profile up to 40k ft or so after declaring an emergency, go a couple hundred miles, and still have some gas to play around with during the descent/approach. Just a thought, in spite of what the regs say.
 
OP didn't do anything wrong, BUT

Why cut it so close? Fuel is one of the few variables in aviation you have absolute control over. Headwinds, weather, and acts of God you cannot. Extra fuel will make dealing with the first two much easier.

FWIW I do all of my planning with a 1 hour reserve. My low fuel warning lights illuminate when I have 45 mins per side.
 
Re: My instructor nagged me because..

I'm a little late to the *****-fest here but for what it's worth I wouldn't accept the min legal reserves as my minimum. Too many things can go wrong while burning down that tank where 5 gallons is no longer 5 gallons. Throw in a go around and you'll have almost no fuel left.
 
mtuomi said:
btw am I the only one asking - does DA20 really use 8gph?
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Negative, 8gph is roughly what you'd burn at low altitudes (up to 4000') at 2800rpm, which is redline. Most of the time I see 6gph fuel burn, and the lowest I've gotten it down to was about 5.5gph.
 
I think everyone is hung up on what seems a low quantity. If he said he landed with 15 gallons of fuel in something with a TIO-520/40/50 no one would say a thing.
 
EdFred said:
I think everyone is hung up on what seems a low quantity. If he said he landed with 15 gallons of fuel in something with a TIO-520/40/50 no one would say a thing.
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I think you're right, but in typical poa fashion, everyone pontificates on everything except the question the op asked, MYSELF INCLUDED. Like I said in my earlier post, it's the relationship that matters, if my instructor did this to me, I would really listen because I have great respect for him, his experience and his opinion. The op obviously doesn't have the same relationship with his. You gotta know though, when you ask a question here, you are definitely gonna get an answer!
 
Ok, I've just put some numbers together and see something that I think the OP either wasn't pointing out or was just missed.

His departure time was 6:30 from Atlanta. According to Skyvector, at 130 kts that's a 2:20 flight from Fulton Cty to Sanford, with arrival around 8:50, maybe 9:00 with 5 gallons of fuel on board. But sunset was at 8:15. His arrival was at night by plan. At 8 gph at low altitudes, he had 5/8 of an hour of fuel on board.

Does that change anything for the instructor to call and say "Hey, you landed our airplane with too little fuel"?
 
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