My (ex) instructor called me and nagged me because..

Re: My instructor nagged me because..

kestrel said:
This is about message 235 in this thread. I assure you that I had much more fun hiking in the Tetons than keeping up with all of the replies. Which would you think was more fun? :D



Maybe. I'll leave it to the OP to decide if he considered the fuel system in that much detail or he just happened to be flying an airplane with what appears to be a very good system that is likely to get essentially all the fuel out. I don't know the details well enough to know for certain if an issue with the fuel pick-up might possibly cause it to have less than the expected usable. If it drains out the bottom, then maybe it is pretty much assured to give all of it. ...but again, did the OP consider that or did he get lucky to be in an airplane with such a system.

By pointing places that it _might_ have gone wrong, he might consider these details for future aircraft even if they don't apply to this one. By suggesting that there can be thing outside of what one has considered or has control of, we might provide information that changes how he evaluates risk.

Cheers!
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You haven't read what Marco said was the FBO owners response, you don't know the details, you don't know this, you don't that. But you have no problem making definitive statements based on your assumptions, or posting a big picture addressed to me saying know the truth before typing . WOW.
 
MarcoDA40 said:
If you actually read the initial post, I said around 6:30. When I landed I could still see the ground from sunlight. Maybe 8:20-8:25?

I never said night, anywhere in any of my posts. Everything "night related" posts are just peoples assumptions..
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MikeELP said:
Editing your original post (or replacing it with a :goofy:) does not delete it from our memories. ;)

Nice try, however.
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Only because OP pulled such a chicken **** maneuver... The internet is forever. Google cache of the OP here.

What Marco said in his original post was "I told him [CFI] I was aware and I didn't stop to fill up because I'd rather not fly at night unless I absolutely have to," and "I feel more comfortable not flying at night."

A far cry from "Everything 'night related' posts are just peoples assumptions."
 
I can understand not being comfortable at night but I feel like it may have given you more options in this situation. Flying at night is better than running out of fuel in the day.
 
noobJohn said:
Ultimately you are PIC. You planned the flight carefully and you executed your flight as planned.

My only comment is that you seem defensive. Recognize that the defensiveness may come from some doubt in the back of your mind. Applying a cliche, your former CFI "struck a nerve" when he questioned your fuel planning.

Maybe it comes from getting older, maybe it's from being married for years, but I find it easier to accept criticism these days. If someone called me up and said, "you were cutting it kind of close on gas, weren't you?", I would have agreed. I would have explained my reasoning but been open to input on the subject. Listening to an alternative point of view doesn't mean that you were WRONG.
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Well put, John. And to the OP, if you WERE wrong, how adult of you to accept that and move on, adding it to your pilot "lessons learned" experience. If you were wrong ("if"), welcome to the world of aviation, where even the best of us makes mistakes.

Sometimes when things "strike a nerve", we look back and realize there was a reason. Many times, when something strikes a nerve, there was a reason the nerve reacted!
 
Re: My instructor nagged me because..

vintage cessna said:
You haven't read what Marco said was the FBO owners response, you don't know the details, you don't know this, you don't that. But you have no problem making definitive statements based on your assumptions, or posting a big picture addressed to me saying know the truth before typing . WOW.
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It appears that you didn't take the time to understand my posts. ...much as you have no clue to the meaning of the image I posted. Drop the adversarial style and we might be able to have a conversation.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
We have wandered a bit from your question, but the beauty of this site is you get a lot of perspectives and can decided for youself. Personally, I have learned from these posts.

I would suggest this, and maybe you did it already: Probe your instructor a bit to understand his reasoning. Maybe there's a lesson learned for you. Maybe not.

I'm guessing, without knowing your CFI, that he contacted you out of sincere concern for your safety and the safety of your passengers. He has the right to do that, and you have a right to decide not to work with him again if you find that offensive.

Focusing again on the original question...I think it was totally within his professional responsibilities to make this call. And if that offends you, there are many other CFI's out there.
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This is the type of answers I was expecting... But this thread took a turn.

Thank you.


As for erasing the original post, its quoted in one of these pages...
 
I just remembered something similar. I got a call from my CFI a few months after I was certified. He reamed me good when he found out I took my GF up for a flight and my chutes were a week out of date. Now, the diff is in my case, I actually did break a reg, and CFI or not, he was right in bringing it to my attention -- forcefully.

Pretty sure back there somewhere there's a post that says something like what is legal is not necessarily safe. And what is illegal is not necessarily unsafe. But - better to be fully legal, and fully safe, and from the sound of the flight you met those requirements.
 
I don't think cutting it that close on fuel is being fully safe. Yes the outcome was fine but as was stated, a few situations could have turned that into a not-so-safe situation. Sure I'm second guessing... but a lot of risk management is predicated on the "what if" mentality. Plan for the worst possible outcome. Landing with 5 gallons in the tank is cutting it really close in my opinion. I will admit I'm extremely conservative with fuel and probably more than I need to be, but I haven't ran out yet:)
 
He was 50% over the legal required (even though it's based on planning) and that's not safe?

GTFO!

Ignore that it's 5 gallons for a second and think of it as 45 minutes. 45 minutes is 50% more than the 30 minutes laid out in the regs.
 
Well, I postulated a kind-of worst case scenario a while back, and didn't get any love, so I don't know where we stand. If the OP could have left the pattern on base, flown to another field nearby, executed a pattern and landing without undue danger, then it's all good. If that would have caused a panic, then not so good, if he would have crashed enroute, then that qualifies as a Bad Thing.
 
45 minutes at 6GPH.

What's a DA20 burn at full throttle? Bet it's close to double that.

A go around, long vector, etc... Suddenly it's not that much.

I also made clear that my fuel planning is very conservative. Safe is subjective, obviously.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
45 minutes at 6GPH.

What's a DA20 burn at full throttle? Bet it's close to double that.

A go around, long vector, etc... Suddenly it's not that much.

I also made clear that my fuel planning is very conservative. Safe is subjective, obviously.
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8.4GPH at 2800rpm I believe, you can't really do full throttle at low altitude as you'll overrev the motor, I'm at 2800rpm with like 35%-40% throttle at low altitude.
 
As the OP described the CFI as his ex-instructor, I wonder if he has a current instructor and if so what that CFI thinks. Shouldn't we all have a current instructor; someone we can go to for advice, for flight reviews, to help keep us sharp?
 
docmirror said:
Well, I postulated a kind-of worst case scenario a while back, and didn't get any love, so I don't know where we stand. If the OP could have left the pattern on base, flown to another field nearby, executed a pattern and landing without undue danger, then it's all good. If that would have caused a panic, then not so good, if he would have crashed enroute, then that qualifies as a Bad Thing.
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If I arrived at KTTA and found the runway blocked, my next choices would be:

KHRJ, Harnett County: 21.4 to the SE. Doable, although you wind up a good hour+ drive away from anything that could be considered Raleigh. This is my first choice because it's the closest to my house, which means the wife will be less angry that she has to come and play Uber driver for me.

KRDU, Raleigh: 23.4 to the N/NE. You would need to declare low on fuel and request direct 5R, otherwise they will tend to route small aircraft far to the SE toward Lake Wheeler, which is around a 30-45 minute flight from KTTA.

KSCR, Siler City (where Aunt Bea learned to fly and I practiced many, many shorts and softs): 21 to the W. Same as Harnett County, you're well outside of the Raleigh area.

All three choices would be doable, Raleigh with the caveat that you need to get direct routing to avoid getting vectored way out to the east.

The issues are still cutting the margins too close and potentially planning to land after sunset with less 45 minutes of fuel.
 
SkyDog58 said:
As the OP described the CFI as his ex-instructor, I wonder if he has a current instructor and if so what that CFI thinks. Shouldn't we all have a current instructor; someone we can go to for advice, for flight reviews, to help keep us sharp?
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Yes, he is my current instructor. I said ex because I did my ppl training with him but I am not currently being "instructed" by him. We are starting my IR at the end of September.
 
bflynn said:
If I arrived at KTTA and found the runway blocked, my next choices would be:

KHRJ, Harnett County: 21.4 to the SE. Doable, although you wind up a good hour+ drive away from anything that could be considered Raleigh. This is my first choice because it's the closest to my house, which means the wife will be less angry that she has to come and play Uber driver for me.

KRDU, Raleigh: 23.4 to the N/NE. You would need to declare low on fuel and request direct 5R, otherwise they will tend to route small aircraft far to the SE toward Lake Wheeler, which is around a 30-45 minute flight from KTTA.

KSCR, Siler City (where Aunt Bea learned to fly and I practiced many, many shorts and softs): 21 to the W. Same as Harnett County, you're well outside of the Raleigh area.

All three choices would be doable, Raleigh with the caveat that you need to get direct routing to avoid getting vectored way out to the east.

The issues are still cutting the margins too close and potentially planning to land after sunset with less 45 minutes of fuel.
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Thanks. 5W5 looks closer. Maybe no fuel there, but you'd be on the ground in one piece a bit sooner.

<edit; it is closer by ~2 miles. Now it's down to wondering where the prevailing wind is coming from. I'd prolly pick 5W5 just because it's small and out of the way. >
 
SkyDog58 said:
As the OP described the CFI as his ex-instructor, I wonder if he has a current instructor and if so what that CFI thinks. Shouldn't we all have a current instructor; someone we can go to for advice, for flight reviews, to help keep us sharp?
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Why would he have a current instructor ? Now that the FAA conferred the prestigious private pilot certificate on him, he knows everything there is to know about aviating.
 
docmirror said:
Thanks. 5W5 looks closer. Maybe no fuel there, but you'd be on the ground in one piece a bit sooner.

<edit; it is closer by ~2 miles. Now it's down to wondering where the prevailing wind is coming from. I'd prolly pick 5W5 just because it's small and out of the way. >
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If 2 miles of range become an issue, maybe the fuel planning was a bit tight.
 
weilke said:
If 2 miles of range become an issue, maybe the fuel planning was a bit tight.
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Yupper, but better to be on the ground with the 2 miles to taxi to the FBO, than to be in the air without fuel to get there.

Brings to mind that MD80 or something out in Portland. They were only a few miles short of the runway, but they were still -- short.
 
weilke said:
Why would he have a current instructor ? Now that the FAA conferred the prestigious private pilot certificate on him, he knows everything there is to know about aviating.
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And this only 2 hours and 1 reply after he clarified the "ex" part. Reading is hard, but hey, at least you got another dig in!
 
MarcoDA40 said:
Yes, he is my current instructor. I said ex because I did my ppl training with him but I am not currently being "instructed" by him. We are starting my IR at the end of September.
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Going by the thread title, I assume you consider him a "nagger"...:confused:...

Oops... Now I am going to be called a racist...:redface::redface:......:D:lol:
 
Got a call from my ex-instructor once... or was the my ex-wife...

Anyway, what were we talking about again?
 
docmirror said:
Thanks. 5W5 looks closer. Maybe no fuel there, but you'd be on the ground in one piece a bit sooner.

<edit; it is closer by ~2 miles. Now it's down to wondering where the prevailing wind is coming from. I'd prolly pick 5W5 just because it's small and out of the way. >
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Local knowledge - 5W5 is actually 2 miles from my house, but it's not a great choice. It's surrounded by ~100' pine trees with a crumbling < 40' wide asphalt runway oriented perpendicular to the prevailing winds. On approach at night, if the edge lights start flashing, it's because you're seeing them through the trees and you need to add power. On go around, you need to climb to 150' AGL at Vx or else you're risking a new air freshener of the "fresh pine" variety.

I'd choose Fuquay-Angier or Cox over 5W5.
 
Auburn2002 said:
And this only 2 hours and 1 reply after he clarified the "ex" part. Reading is hard, but hey, at least you got another dig in!
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Oh I read his prior reply. Doesn't change my post one bit.
 
bflynn said:
Local knowledge - 5W5 is actually 2 miles from my house, but it's not a great choice. It's surrounded by ~100' pine trees with a crumbling < 40' wide asphalt runway oriented perpendicular to the prevailing winds. On approach at night, if the edge lights start flashing, it's because you're seeing them through the trees and you need to add power. On go around, you need to climb to 150' AGL at Vx or else you're risking a new air freshener of the "fresh pine" variety.

I'd choose Fuquay-Angier or Cox over 5W5.
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K, good to know.
 
weilke said:
Why would he have a current instructor ? Now that the FAA conferred the prestigious private pilot certificate on him, he knows everything there is to know about aviating.
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Well he did say he had 90 hours, so he does know it all, correct?
 
EdFred said:
I think everyone is hung up on what seems a low quantity. If he said he landed with 15 gallons of fuel in something with a TIO-520/40/50 no one would say a thing.
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Of course they would. It's PoA!

EdFred said:
If I were to have said anything as the instructor, and I probably wouldn't have, but it would have probably went something like this:

"Yo, Marco, what's shakin' man?"

"Uh, who is this?"

"Your old CFI, what's going down?"

"Nothing much."

"Wrong answer. You if you don't watch your fuel management, brah!"
"Hey, I see you flew the plane last night, was it a good flight?"

"Yeah, pretty good, joined the half mile club with my gf."

"Only went to 2640, eh?"

"No, was at 5280, but I just had her take her top off."

"Ha! Gotcha. Speaking of topping off, do you know how much fuel we put in after your flight?"

"Oh, I would have to say, I probably had 5-6 gallons left when we landed, that's like 25 gallons or so you put in I should have had 45 mins of fuel left if I did the numbers right."

"Alright, just checkin' out for ya. Oh, and just for the record going to 10,560 and having her go topless doesn't count as the mile high club either, I'm out!"
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I think Mari covered this. For all we know, that's exactly how the conversation went down and someone took it the wrong way.

Clark1961 said:
The Rockies sure suck this year.
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They had a pitcher make it through an entire game and throw a shutout with only five hits and with four strikeouts.

They'll be trading him to some other team tomorrow, I assume. Offer letter is probably already in the Monfort's email.

KA550 said:
Well he did say he had 90 hours, so he does know it all, correct?
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Way back when this started I wondered if the CFI called because he's at that "magic" number of hours where people start doing cocky things and get hurt doing it for a while, then it mellows out 50-100 hours later. That phenomenon is pretty well documented. And he's in the range.
 
denverpilot said:
Way back when this started I wondered if the CFI called because he's at that "magic" number of hours where people start doing cocky things and get hurt doing it for a while, then it mellows out 50-100 hours later. That phenomenon is pretty well documented. And he's in the range.
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:yes:60-100 hrs...We are testing our limits and trying a bunch of things we did not get to do or think of doing with the ex. I should have been nagged at a little too.
 
MarcoDA40 said:
Yes, he is my current instructor. I said ex because I did my ppl training with him but I am not currently being "instructed" by him. We are starting my IR at the end of September.
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1. Plan fuel burn for MAX burn. I don't fly a DA20, but saw multiple values for 2400 vs 2800 RPM burn rate.

2. Eventually a situation will arise where you will need ALL of it (your minimum reserve) and maybe more. I had a diversion due to extreme wind that was never in the forecast on a local flight for night currency at the Class C from my field. Went from predicted calm all evening to 37G50 sustained. I flew to the next city (35 minutes) to escape it (Class C to home drome unladnable to alternate). Was prepared to fly across state if necessary as full fuel on board. Can't imagine planning 45 using 35 in the above scenario and landing with 10 and no other option. Out west our airports are not close together.

If you planned to have 5 gallons remaining, then mission accomplished .... but ask yourself this now ... were all 5 in the same tank?
 
A CFI I used to fly with ran a DA20 dry in the air with a student on board. The fuel gauge was inop and the tank was only half full, be he decided it was okay for the lesson. It turns out that the mechanic that recently worked on the plane had messed something up with the mixture mechanism and it was burning 9 gph rather than 6. The engine sputtered and then recovered so he immediately headed back for the airport. The engine then quit a few miles out and me managed to glide it onto the 2600 foot runway surrounded by trees. The tank was completely empty when they checked it on the ground.
 
MassPilot said:
A CFI I used to fly with ran a DA20 dry in the air with a student on board. The fuel gauge was inop and the tank was only half full, be he decided it was okay for the lesson. It turns out that the mechanic that recently worked on the plane had messed something up with the mixture mechanism and it was burning 9 gph rather than 6. The engine sputtered and then recovered so he immediately headed back for the airport. The engine then quit a few miles out and me managed to glide it onto the 2600 foot runway surrounded by trees. The tank was completely empty when they checked it on the ground.
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.

Hmmm..

Was the plane even airworthy to fly a student in??
 
danhagan said:
1. Plan fuel burn for MAX burn. I don't fly a DA20, but saw multiple values for 2400 vs 2800 RPM burn rate.
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Lets see. On full rich climb-out I'm pouring 2.5 times what I am burning at cruise into the cylinders. Are you saying I should only plan to fly for 3 hours at a time rather than 7ish?

So my IFR legs are now only to be planned for 1:45 minutes on 86 gallons fuel? That's so insane, I don't even think there's a word for how insane that suggestion is.
 
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