My (ex) instructor called me and nagged me because..

MarcoDA40

MarcoDA40

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Marco
My instructor nagged me because..

:goofy:
 
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Sounds like he is looking out for you. I wouldn't sweat it.
 
I think you cut it thin and deserve a consulting, listen and think about better reserves next time. A lot of people every year end up a mile short don't be that guy!! Have fun learn and live to fly another day.
 
willywildes said:
I think you cut it thin and deserve a consulting, listen and think about better reserves next time. A lot of people every year end up a mile short don't be that guy!! Have fun learn and live to fly another day.
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Seriously? He said he had 45 minutes left. Well above VFR reserve and meets the club requirements. Better reserves? What do you suggest?
 
Hi. Five gallons could go by in a flash, even if it does equate to 45 minutes reserve. The problem is, you just don't know for sure if you really did have 45 minutes in reserve. The regulatory minimums are just that; to be a safe and competent pilot, why not have at least DOUBLE the legal reserve requirement? Stopping for fuel is cheap compared to shopping for a pine box.

I think your instructor probably could have been a bit more tactful, but he wasn't the one flying the airplane -- you were. As PIC, you have a big responsibility to fulfill and this "close call" might make you more aware of upping your ADM skills????

Good luck and best wishes.
 
I think a lot depends on the aircraft. Does it have a fuel flow and totalizer? Was it 5 gallons useable or five gallons total? Did you have a little in each tank or did you burn one tank completely down? Personally I am not comfortable with less than an hour and when you get that low most aircraft fuel gauges are completely unreliable with needles bouncing on "E."

If you did make it back with 45 minutes left you did better than Allegiant.
 
Well, you're obviously carrying more than the legal requirement and you have met the club requirement.

Fuel starvation accident rates are painfully high in GA which is pretty sad when all you have to do to avoid them is stop for gas.

I too use foreflight and I've been quite impressed with the accuracy of it's calculation of time en route with headwinds factored in and have seen it often be within the minute and within a gallon on time/fuel estimates.

Just remember those calculations assume consistent burn rates and no problems with the aircraft, they assume accurate weather reports, they assume the amount of gas in the tank is accurate, your flight path/navigation is accurate, and so on. So, just as long as nothing goes wrong and all information fed in is correct then you'll get perfect calculations. I guess how comfortable are you with only 5 gallons or 45 minutes margin of error? Seriously, how comfortable are you and your passenger(s)? We all have different levels of risk tolerance.

I personally have a minimum of 1 hour that never actually comes into play because my aircraft has about 4.8hrs of endurance and my wife and I have about 3-3.5.
 
You are flying a DA40?

Technically you were legal, the instructor obviously should never yell at you.

But I personally would never cut it that close. I recently had two events where plans changed drastically mid-flight, I wouldn't want to end up in a situation where fuel was limiting my options.

5 gallons is not a lot. You pull an approach, have to do a go-around, slosh fuel around when maneuvering around a deer on the runway, suddenly the 5 gallons isn't 45 minutes anymore.
 
Your instructor is an idiot and he does not belong in the sky if 45 minutes of reserve caused him to be so concerned that he had to call you and project his ineptness onto you.
 
If it's an otherwise routine flight, you KNEW you had 45 minutes of reserve, good weather, and an out, the instructor was way out of line.

OTOH, if you guesstimate your fuel, were fighting bad weather, or lacked a viable alternate plan than you may want to bump your personal reserves up.

My personal XC min is 90 min, and I'll only stretch that to 60 min if I'm racing weather or I overfly an alternate at 90-min. I'm in the pattern at 45 min.

OTOH, I'll also do pattern work on 9 gal in a 152, no problem, so YMMV.
 
How much time do you have in this plane?

Maybe he isn't using the right tone, but he was concerned with your action and was just trying to make sure you give it thought in the future.
 
I'm not saying you did anything wrong, but you are missing a third option that was available to you: If you don't want to fly at night, spend the night at a fuel stop.
 
nimdabew said:
Sounds like he is looking out for you. I wouldn't sweat it.
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That.

I'd want to be back home with more fuel if I were you, stuff happens, fuel buys time.
 
Re: My instructor nagged me because..

I'd much rather arrive in the dark, with plenty of fuel on board, than arrive with a lawyers opinion of how little fuel I can have on board and not break the law, at dusk.

Just sayin'.
 
Wow.... landing with legal fuel and everyone goes ballistic....almost.
Legal is legal even if some people don't like it. Sorry. And legal reserve is at normal cruise power. Cut that back to 45% power and increase flying time.

Maybe your instructor doesn't know or forgot that 5 gallons is the amount for reserve fuel for this plane? I am guessing this was day VFR so 30 minutes reserve is all that's needed to be legal.



Back when I was a student the flight school required us to have an hour of fuel for day VFR reserve. That made me nervous since that was only 6 gallons... In the 421 I will burn 6 gallons doing the runup....:lol:
 
Sounds to me like you need to start refueling the plane when you land, that way nobody can ***** about landing with legal reserves.
 
Zeldman said:
Wow.... landing with legal fuel and everyone goes ballistic....almost.
Legal is legal even if some people don't like it.
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I looked back over the thread searching for someone going "ballistic" and couldn't find it. Which post?

Legal is legal is correct. It's a number written by a lawyer that isn't intended as anything but a guide for enforcement.

Plenty of scenarios where legal fuel will make you dead, and plenty where landing below legal fuel you'll be just fine.

None of us are going to get any enforcement phone calls about it either way. Haven't ever heard of an inspector sticking a tank in over 20 years doing this, without cause to do so.

But frankly, getting a phone call from someone you know, who cares about your well being, and knows your capabilities, saying they were concerned about your judgement, is a rarity that shouldn't be lightly ignored. Especially an instructor you've spent a lot of time in a cockpit with.

I know if I got a call from a former instructor saying that I may have gotten away with one, after they saw something I did, that would be pretty sobering and I'd want to know why. Especially if I didn't think I did anything particularly wrong or dangerous.

Legal is legal, and nobody gives a flying **** about "legal" until the accident report is being typed up. But a phone call from an instructor? I'd be listening and thinking pretty hard about the advice given.

Nothing "ballistic" about that. Just common sense. People don't call often saying "careful", unless you not only had their attention (rare enough as it is) and also worried them.

How did the instructor come to know what the amount of fuel was? I can't think of a single time any of my instructors looked at my fuel tickets when I was renting as a PP.

I may have missed it. Is the OP a student or rated?
 
You weren't specific on what you were flying. 5gal in a DA-20 is close. 5 gal in a DA-40 is very tight. 5 gal in a Aeronca Champ is a 1.5. In many G-1000 airplanes, the end fuel is based on fuel burn rate, which is based on how well calibrated fuel flow transmitters are. There are not very good tests to know if those transmitters are off a bit.

Most flight schools don't have customer relations training for CFIs... It's very much a learn on the job type thing. I think your CFI is right to be concerned, but he approached you in the wrong way. I think a quiet conversation works better here.
 
I guess it is a relationship issue. I have so much respect for my instructor that if he called me out on the same thing, I would listen intently. My XC minimum is an hour and a half, day, and two hours night.
 
Are you looking for validation of your actions? You are the pilot in command,did you feel comfortable ,and safe with your decision? I like to have more fuel available than less,but that's my decision . The instructor could have approached the subject,in a more subtle way ,having a discussion ,Rather than belittling you.
 
Wrong or right, him or you, try not to get your shorts all rolled up about it and reflect on it all a bit.

You made a series of decisions based on presumably good training and a fully engaged brain. Given what you said I may have made exactly the same ones.

You are lucky to have a CFI or friend who took the time to examine a few facts and take issue with you. It's not disrespect of you or your flying, it's respect for the profession and the responsibility he feels towards you, student or friend, to give you the best of his opinion.

You were miffed a bit, get over it. He may have felt like a bit of jerk going after you, or not - he needs to get over it as well. Again, you are lucky to have him. Try to understand where he was coming from and add that to your growing experience.

The best part is that it sounds like you guys talked for quite awhile after the admonishment. Talk some more and stay together, you'll both be better for it.

I'm glad you weren't flying into KTTA yesterday when I went past - looked like a string of rain bombs hit it.

Flight from KSSI into 8NC8 Aug 6th
 
Re: My instructor nagged me because..

The instructor could be just worried about his own butt if you make a mistake, or... He could know you better than most of us do and care about you enough to tell you he thinks you have a slightly dangerous attitude. The minimum reserve for instance in Dallas can put you in a world of hurt in a hurry if ATC vectors you out of the way for an airliner emergency or just general congestion. As a professional aerial photography crew we pretty much always try to have at least an hour fuel reserve we we stop for fuel. There have been several times where that hour reserve was just adequate because of external circumstances.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Bill Watson said:
Wrong or right, him or you, try not to get your shorts all rolled up about it and reflect on it all a bit.

You made a series of decisions based on presumably good training and a fully engaged brain. Given what you said I may have made exactly the same ones.

You are lucky to have a CFI or friend who took the time to examine a few facts and take issue with you. It's not disrespect of you or your flying, it's respect for the profession and the responsibility he feels towards you, student or friend, to give you the best of his opinion.

You were miffed a bit, get over it. He may have felt like a bit of jerk going after you, or not - he needs to get over it as well. Again, you are lucky to have him. Try to understand where he was coming from and add that to your growing experience.

The best part is that it sounds like you guys talked for quite awhile after the admonishment. Talk some more and stay together, you'll both be better for it.

I'm glad you weren't flying into KTTA yesterday when I went past - looked like a string of rain bombs hit it.

Flight from KSSI into 8NC8 Aug 6th
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:yeahthat::yeahthat:
 
I apologize for the lack of info.

The airplane was a DA20, burning 8 gallons per hour.
And yes, I have a private certificate.
Looking back and reading you guys comments, I know he was looking out for me and when on the phone with him I even thanked him for his phone call, it was just the way he approached me that bothered me..
 
MarcoDA40 said:
I apologize for the lack of info.

The airplane was a DA20, burning 8 gallons per hour.
And yes, I have a private certificate.
Looking back and reading you guys comments, I know he was looking out for me and when on the phone with him I even thanked him for his phone call, it was just the way he approached me that bothered me..
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Five gallons is just a gallon under quarter of a tank, at ~2500rpm or so that's almost an hour worth of reserve. That's not bad.
 
I have a personal rule....I always plan for more than an hour fuel reserve and I take off with full fuel as much as possible.

You will mitigate one of the leading causes of accidents.....running outta gas.
 
Maciej said:
Five gallons is just a gallon under quarter of a tank, at ~2500rpm or so that's almost an hour worth of reserve. That's not bad.
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I never exceed 2400 rpm during cruise flight
 
Direct C51 said:
Seriously? He said he had 45 minutes left. Well above VFR reserve and meets the club requirements. Better reserves? What do you suggest?
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Everyone has their own personal mins, me, I like keeping at least 1hr in the tank.
 
Tell your instructor you know who you AREN'T going to do your instrument training with. Sounds like someone who still feels the need to boss people around.
 
EdFred said:
Tell your instructor you know who you AREN'T going to do your instrument training with. Sounds like someone who still feels the need to boss people around.
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Or maybe he was just concerned about a former student. Glass half full, or half empty?
 
EdFred said:
Tell your instructor you know who you AREN'T going to do your instrument training with. Sounds like someone who still feels the need to boss people around.
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Wow, that's some misguided stuff right there.
 
5 gallons left in a low wing?

All in one tank or not? It makes a difference in an airplane without a "both" selection.

You could have had some adventures with a slip on final, turbulence, or uncoordinated turn in the pattern.

I insist on an hour of fuel on landing. On a low wing, the tank used on landing must have an hour.

Like it or not, cutting the fuel that close removed quite a few options. What would you have done if fog formed at your destination, or if there was an emergency that closed the field?

You have a lot of confidence for a low time pilot. Except for night flight. That makes you take risks, so perhaps it might be a good idea to fix that.
 
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I was reflecting further on a rather public and humiliating admonishment I got from an instructor in front of my flying club's officers many years ago. The details mean little now. They were right, I was wrong but they overreacted for reasons I refuse to try to fully understand or acknowledge. It incidentally prevented me from flying for several years and thus altered the trajectory of my life... For good or bad, who knows?

I'm still flying and frankly don't care whether any or all of them are flying (or living) now. I've never forgiven them for it but long ago moved past it. Lessons were learned there, aviation related and otherwise. It may have helped me stay alive to walk this earth. It may have cheated me out of some aviating, something I dearly value.

Hey, some days are Diamonds and some days are stones... Being here for the next one is the point. Thanks for the reflection.

("Diamonds" is a soaring reference for you plane people)
 
Bill Watson said:
I was reflecting further on a rather public and humiliating admonishment I got from an instructor in front of my flying club's officers many years ago. The details mean little now. They were right, I was wrong but they overreacted for reasons I refuse to try to fully understand or acknowledge. It incidentally prevented me from flying for several years and thus altered the trajectory of my life... For good or bad, who knows?

I'm still flying and frankly don't care whether any or all of them are flying (or living) now. I've never forgiven them for it but long ago moved past it. Lessons were learned there, aviation related and otherwise. It may have helped me stay alive to walk this earth. It may have cheated me out of some aviating, something I dearly value.

Hey, some days are Diamonds and some days are stones... Being here for the next one is the point. Thanks for the reflection.

("Diamonds" is a soaring reference for you plane people)
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So because they chewed your butt you quit flying?

And they were right in what they were talking about?



Harden up people, take a justified arse chewing for what it is, someone trying to look out for you and trying to make a point highly clear, because it's something that could hurt or kill you.

The people that I can't stand are the ones who would watch someone do dangerous stuff, but never confront the person about it, I'll take some major league arse holes over the meek anyday :yes:
 
Is the 5 gallons what you expected to land with? Did you ALREADY know EXACTLY what you were going to do next if anything delayed your arrival at destination? Did you ALREADY know the conditions at the 4 airports within 10 miles? Let's what if it. You're on final at destination. Something makes the runway unusable. What's your next move and did you ALREADY know what it was going to be and what was your fuel state going to be when you landed after making that move. You said you 5 gallons left in the tank (not tankS). What airplane were you flying? One with a both tanks selection? One with only left and right? If so had you already burned one tank empty? If the airplane you were flying was not approved for slips below a certain fuel level had you already had the conversation with yourself that you had better be pretty damn sure you didn't get into situation where your choices were slip it to get it down to avoid being high and long and have to go around around?
Ask yourself these questions and a lot of other questions that might be pertinent to your flight. Looking back over it, do you think you may have had a little case of "get-home-itis". Same flight, same conditions, what would you do next time?
 
MAKG1 said:
5 gallons left in a low wing?

All in one tank or not? It makes a difference in an airplane without a "both" selection.

You could have had some adventures with a slip on final, turbulence, or uncoordinated turn in the pattern.

I insist on an hour of fuel on landing. On a low wing, the tank used on landing must have an hour.

Like it or not, cutting the fuel that close removed quite a few options. What would you have done if fog formed at your destination, or if there was an emergency that closed the field?

You have a lot of confidence for a low time pilot. Except for night flight. That makes you take risks, so perhaps it might be a good idea to fix that.
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The DA20 has a single center fuel cell.
 
At least he cared enough about you and your safety to call. Many of the time builders who I flew with had no interest in me after they were done.
 
Every airplane in which I've flown has some amount of unusable fuel. I imagine that's petrol that gets sloshed in the tank to where the engine can't use it. In my aircraft its two gallons. Were I landing with 5 I'd have enough gas for about 20 minutes, not a good VFR reserve.

I don't know anything about Diamonds except they look snappy. I find it hard to believe that they have zero unusable fuel. Thus instead of a 45 minute reserve the OP might have had a much smaller one.

The funny thing is I landed at Greenville one time on the way down to Florida. Good on the CFI to read the OP the riot act. Fuel management is one of the biggest issues that brings down perfectly good aircraft. The problem, as I see it (and probably the CFI as well) is that now that the OP has managed to get it that low, perhaps he'll try and push the envelope some more.

For comparison, once my fuel gauges read quarters on each side I know I've 12 gallons left in the Cherokee. That's actually ten, because of the two unusable. That's about an hour and a half. And that's when I hit the nearest button and land to get fuel. Every time, always. I may have an engine blow on rotation. I might loose a prop blade in cruise. But I WILL NOT run of fuel. Its use too stupid a way to crash an airplane.
 
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