My ArtCraft Paint Experience

Excellent comment. Thank you for encapsulating the broader issue so succinctly.


Mtns2Skies said:
The reality is that when you attach "aviation" to a business the dysfunction factor goes up about 100x. Scams are rampant and as are missed promises and shoddy work with no chance of reparation. I don't know what it is about this industry, it has some of the best people, but the businesses are stuck 30 years in the past almost universally. The best places I've worked in general aviation are generally worse than the worst places I've worked in other industries, and well the worst in aviation are just completely untenable, but they still exist.

So the reality is that we're grading on a curve. Given that curve, it sounds like the OP's shop experience was pretty darn good all things considered. If I didn't grade on a curve, then yeah that's atrocious, but then again so would every shop I've ever been to, or seen anyone else perform work at. The message I'm trying to convey is that you need to temper your expectations when working in this industry, and if the work was performed well and it didn't exceed 6 months of shop time, then well - it's a win.

Should it be that way? No. Should we accept it? No not really, but it is a reality.
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Lindberg said:
If everyone in PoA knows that, shouldn't this shop know it as well?
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Sure. But what if they did and the OP simply didn't like what he was told by them? We don't know that based on what has been presented. As to price increases and delays these have been happening weekly in many sectors which affects any shop's work flow as I'm sure there is more than one aircraft they are working on.
 
Bell206 said:
Sure. But what if they did and the OP simply didn't like what he was told by them? We don't know that based on what has been presented. As to price increases and delays these have been happening weekly in many sectors which affects any shop's work flow as I'm sure there is more than one aircraft they are working on.
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I'm commenting only on the story as told by the OP. As are the comments I'm responding to.
 
Lindberg said:
I'm commenting only on the story as told by the OP.
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My bad. I was replying to the general part of your post below which was outside the context of the OPs post.

Lindberg said:
A lot of folks saying that delays and missed delivery dates are too be expected in this business. If everyone in PoA knows that, shouldn't this shop know it as well?
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As my grandpa always said, "There's two sides to every story." I would like to hear their side.

I've seen first hand why shops have delays. Almost every time there are underlying things that have to get replaced, repaired, etc. other than what the plane was brought to the shop to be done. Many of these are airworthy items. The shop I work for very rarely gets things done "on time" because it is simply impossible after finding all the things which need attention. This in my opinion, is as a result of previous shops ignoring or looking the other way and getting it out "on time." We don't enjoy fixing other shop's mistakes or overlooks. We would absolutely love to be able to fix the original issue and get it out of the hangar. We are well aware that customers don't like repairs taking longer or being more expensive. We have planes too. But after the invoices are paid and the customer gets his plane back, every one of them has been grateful that they now have the peace of mind that it was repaired correctly and is a much safer airplane as a result.


An example:

Customer calls, says his brakes are leaking. We look at it. The brake pads are non-existent. Gone. As a result, the pucks are so far out of the calipers that the O ring is no longer inside the caliper - thus the leak. There are remnants of the brass rivets still on the pressure plates and the rotors have worn away the pressure plates so now they need replacing. Additionally, the hydraulic fluid is more of a syrup than 5606. Now the questions are: Who did the last annual? Wouldn't a pilot be aware that his brakes are just metal on metal with a horrific noise? Isn't checking the brakes part of the pre-flight? This is on an aircraft that is extremely easy to check, no wheel pants or anything else to hide it. How could this happen? So now, this "fix" requires ordering new brake parts and you're at the mercy of the supplier and delivery and more money.

We would love to be able to "fix" the leaking brakes with tightening up a fitting or something simple, but it never is.
 
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Timbeck2 said:
As my grandpa always said, "There's two sides to every story." I would like to hear their side.

I've seen first hand why shops have delays. Almost every time there are underlying things that have to get replaced, repaired, etc. other than what the plane was brought to the shop to be done.
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I would but just as interested to hear their side of the story as well. There are several lingering questions I had such as:
1. Why did Teresa tell her employee to stop communicating with me? I have this written in an email from them as proof so this is indisputable.
2. Why was I told on March 14th, “Your plane will be primered today and we will start paint tomorrow” when that didn’t happen for another 7 days?
3. Why didn’t they order the windows and/or paint to lock-in prices and prevent delays? I would have been agreeable to paying up front for the materials. The avionics shop had me do this and when I dropped off the plane they had everything they needed to complete the project.

There are a few other questions but those are the primary ones I would have liked to know.

As far as delays, yes I get it, aviation is known for delays, I also understand the reason why delays happen, I’m not new to the airplane ownership game. I’ve been at this for over 10 years. In hindsight, had the shop had those windows ordered and on hand when the plane arrived they could have finished the job on time. Why do I say that? Well, the windows took 3 weeks to get there and the project was just over 3 weeks late. Who should get the blame for that? The customer? The supplier? Or the shop? We’re over 2 years into a pandemic now so wouldn’t most business adjust how they operate in order to avoid delays? This isn’t rocket science, order the parts before hand to avoid delays and control your costs. If you have to bill the customer, bill the customer. We’re not talking about a bunch of roofing tiles that would take a bunch of hangar space. A few boxes of windows and paint cans would take up minimal space in a large WW II era hangar.
 
I'm hung up on the windows.

OP could/should have ordered them and brought with, especially with the delay in bringing the plane to the paint shop.

Even a call to a couple vendors would have set expectations for backorder/lead times and began a dialogue with the shop on timeline.

Also, scrub that pic's tail # so you don't get blackballed by shops in the future.
 
FancyG said:
Also, scrub that pic's tail # so you don't get blackballed by shops in the future.
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nah. Just make sure you tell the shop that you bought the plane from some <insert appropriate word>
 
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Timbeck2 said:
Why are there two pitot tubes?
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You don’t miss much, do you? :)

The second pitot tube had installed for the AOA indicator on the Dynon Skyview HDX system. Unfortunately, you’re not allowed to remove the original pitot tube per the STC.
 
Lots of snafus going on. I guess paint was the final straw for the OP. Welcome to aviation!

"I don't like to pester mx. So I pestered mx."! I don't miss working on private aircraft. :rolleyes:

PS The private aircraft I don't mind. It's the owners that makes life special! :D
 
Also posted on beechtalk and Mooney space. Some added details in both places. It's not just private aircraft owners that make it special. In my industry anytime a homeowner wants something quoted it's going to be an odyssey. 6 different quotes. Don't quite know what they want. Then get upset when the pickets they chose are backordered from India for 4-8 months.
 
Other than the shop coming back to ask for more money (“We won’t make any money off this job if you don’t give us more!”), it’s GA as usual. Hard to believe their margin is so thin on a $23k job. Your Mooney is beautiful,though.
 
Price, quality, schedule. Pick two. This is true everywhere, always has been, not just in aviation.

OP got quality at a decent price.
 
Brad Smith said:
Other than the shop coming back to ask for more money (“We won’t make any money off this job if you don’t give us more!”), it’s GA as usual. Hard to believe their margin is so thin on a $23k job. Your Mooney is beautiful,though.
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It probably wasn't thin when it was originally quoted 2 years ago. Before paint prices went nuts.
 
Racerx said:
It probably wasn't thin when it was originally quoted 2 years ago. Before paint prices went nuts.
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Not that it’ll probably matter to most people but the quote was not 2 years old. I got the quote in Oct 2020 for a drop off a few months later which eventually got pushed to May 31st 2021 so I could reseal the tanks first, at Teresa’s recommendation prior to painting.
 
Hello Pilots and Aircraft owners. I understand these platforms have been created to share information to help each other out. I just want to say there is two sides to every story, but for me and the Art Craft team this case was a learning experience, that we will use to provide better customer service for our customers. Every aircraft comes with its own individual set of challenges ranging from dealing with customers who have neglected their aircraft to missing rivets to extreme corrosion in some cases. Unfortunately it always falls back to being the shop's fault. Art Craft's practice is to purchase the parts and materials per project upon arrival of the aircraft to ensure that should a delay occur or cancellation is made we are not left with unnecessary purchase of parts or materials. Art Craft has an open policy, customers are always welcomed to provide their own parts. Unfortunately in some cases our hands are tied, situations are out of our control and we try to make the best out of the situation we are handed. Before Covid, the painting and aviation industry business practice had a different challenge, now it is event worse. I would like to ask anyone that has a need for paint, interior or window replacement be prepare to pay more than the cost before covid due to the raw material shortage all around the world as well as the experience labor force being very limited now and it is very difficult to hire people that want to work. Also the price on the interior supplies have increase up to 300% and the paint 40% more. The labor has gone up 25% higher. This is a crisis all over the world. My apology if I can't financially support other peoples aircraft refurbishing needs. And for me to respond to @NotarPilot complaint I would have to write a two page essay response. If anyone from this platform would like to get any information in regards to their aircraft please don't haste to contact us, my team and I will be more than happy to answer all the questions you may have. I personally have over 30 years experience in the Aviation and Paint industry, I can bring a lot of value to the table. At the end of the day I am here to provide a service with quality results and everyone at Art Craft needs to get paid. Let us turn your Aircraft int ArtCraft. " Aviation is my passion. My job pays my bills."
 
Teresa Arredondo said:
And for me to respond to @NotarPilot complaint I would have to write a two page essay response.
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Class act to not write that essay, however good it might have felt, and however entertaining it'd be to us peanut gallery denizens to hear what a honey gem jewel OP surely was in this transaction.

Too bad he smeared you on two other sites that you need to register for now to defend your business. All he had to do was Ctrl-V a few times.
 
schmookeeg said:
Class act to not write that essay, however good it might have felt, and however entertaining it'd be to us peanut gallery denizens to hear what a honey gem jewel OP surely was in this transaction.

Too bad he smeared you on two other sites that you need to register for now to defend your business. All he had to do was Ctrl-V a few times.
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Weird. I have the totally opposite take on that post.
 
Bottom line for me is that if you have a contract, you stick to the contract. If you’re going to lose money, then you take your lumps and learn.

now if it’s just a quote, then you make sure there is a reestimation clause in the quote. You come back before you begin work and tell the customer that supply prices have changed in the intervening X months. Or, you make a deal for the client to supply the parts, then your risk is avoided. What you don’t do is take the plane in and then say “oops”.

So many things can be fixed in advance by setting or resetting expectations earlier.
 
bflynn said:
now if it’s just a quote, then you make sure there is a reestimation clause in the quote.
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To be honest, all the quotes I have ever seen came with a set validity term. Generally they were valid for 30 days, sometimes less. I would not expect a quote to be still valid over a year later, but then the shop should have made that clear.
 
I think it boils down to being a gentleman. Can you hold the shop to their contract when they did not foresee the Wuhan Red Death and supply chain disintegration? You bet. The printed word controls. They should have drafted the contract with sufficient escape clauses to protect themselves. But these escape clauses would have worked to the detriment of all of their customers. Can you insist that they abide by the very letter of the agreement? Yes. Would I have done so? No.
 
It would be interesting to see an actual copy of the quote and of the final bill. I'm always surprised at people who take an estimate and mentally choose to treat it like a quote and by people who change scope, yet don't expect that to change the price.

None of that may have happened in this example, but I'd still like to see both documents.
 
Sifossifoco said:
To be honest, all the quotes I have ever seen came with a set validity term. Generally they were valid for 30 days, sometimes less. I would not expect a quote to be still valid over a year later, but then the shop should have made that clear.
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Yeah, sure the quote may have no longer be valid or feasible. But the time to address that is before work begins: "Yes you can bring your plane in next week for the work we discussed; prices have gone up, so the cost will be 20% over the quote we provided last year."
 
LesGawlik said:
I think it boils down to being a gentleman. Can you hold the shop to their contract when they did not foresee the Wuhan Red Death and supply chain disintegration? You bet. The printed word controls. They should have drafted the contract with sufficient escape clauses to protect themselves. But these escape clauses would have worked to the detriment of all of their customers. Can you insist that they abide by the very letter of the agreement? Yes. Would I have done so? No.
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The shop couldn't anticipate the pandemic and supply-chain disruption after a year of pandemic and supply-chain disruption?
 
Lindberg said:
The shop couldn't anticipate the pandemic and supply-chain disruption after a year of pandemic and supply-chain disruption?
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Or before they let the plane sit in their shop for weeks
 
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