More (or mandatory) parachutes will save lives....too many fatalities

TexDeuce

TexDeuce

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TexDeuce
More parachutes will save lives....too many fatalities

I understand this might be controversial but I feel compelled to say my piece. I read the NTSB reports constantly, along with any plane crashes that register on google. Seems like pilots are dying pretty much daily. Lately I have seen quite a few plane crashes where the pilot just completely fails to land the plane safely for whatever reason. Looking over the many accidents, I am certain pulling a parachute quickly would have resulted in a much better outcome for a lot of these pilots.

I hear pilots quick to blame other dead pilots for their incompetence (and it is often valid and should be discussed), but the reality is that pilot could be you. Plenty of these fatalities are by experienced and competent pilots. Even some from this board who have tragically passed. Many ended up in a stall to spin after losing power, often from a decently high elevation. Others ended up smashing into trees or houses at a decent velocity. It appears even well trained pilots misjudge a steep bank angle with no power and stall when it is too late. Even some landings that look ok resulted in disastrous results due to flipping of the aircraft or a harsh landing with an immediate fire on contact. One pilot called ATC and said they had a nice field and they would make the landing. Something happened, they flipped and the plane blew up on what should have been a normal field landing.

And what about engine failure on a dark night or over rough terrain? What about being disoriented in IFR? What if you are caught in rough weather? Would you rather try to make an emergency landing or pull the chute?


Going back and looking at a lot of these accidents, if the pilot had pulled a parachute when things went south I think many of these people would have walked away. The parachutes have a remarkable safety record even when pulled from relatively low altitudes, depending on what you are flying.


Some of you will disagree and say a parachute causes people to act with less responsibility but I fly in many planes with chutes and I have never seen evidence of this. Is the parachute the end all be all of safety? Absolutely not, nothing beats good judgment and piloting skills. But I am starting to think pulling a parachute early would save a lot more lives if it was an option.
 
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More? Yes.

Mandatory? Hail no. Flying has already become almost cost-prohibitive. Adding another $20K to a 30 year old 172 would put it out of reach for many would-be pilots.
 
TexDeuce said:
I understand this might be controversial but I feel compelled to say my piece. I read the NTSB reports constantly, along with any plane crashes that register on google. Lately I have seen quite a few plane crashes where the pilot just completely fails to land the plane safely for whatever reason. Looking over the many accidents, I am certain pulling a parachute quickly would have resulted in a much better outcome.

I hear pilots quick to blame other dead pilots for their incompetence (and it is often valid), but the reality is that pilot could be you. Plenty of these fatalities are by experienced and competent pilots. Even some from this board who have tragically passed. Many ended up in a stall to spin after losing power, often from a decently high elevation. Others ended up smashing into trees or houses at a decent velocity. It appears even well trained pilots misjudge a steep bank angle with no power and stall when it is too late. Even some landings that look ok resulted in disastrous results due to flipping of the aircraft or a harsh landing with an immediate fire on contact. And what about engine failure on a dark night or over rough terrain? Would you rather try to make a landing or pull the chute?


Going back and looking at a lot of these accidents, if the pilot had pulled a parachute when things went south I think many of these people would have walked away. The parachutes have a remarkable safety record even when pulled from relatively low altitudes, depending on what you are flying.


Some of you will disagree and say a parachute causes people to act with less responsibility but I fly in many planes with chutes and I have never seen evidence of this. Is the parachute the end all be all of safety? Absolutely not, nothing beats good judgment and piloting skills. But I am starting to think pulling a parachute early would save a lot more lives if it was an option.
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Mandatory :lol:

My life, my risks, my freedom of choice bud, so mandatory is off the table.

I've had two full engine failures, no chute, just flew the plane on down, didn't even scratch the paint.

If you want a consensus on safety we had a poll, Cessna 185 on tundras, or a SR22 with BRS, most folks voted for the 185 in a engine out.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86346


You got to ask yourself, are you more of a pilot or a pax when the chit hits the fan :dunno:
 
I agree that parachutes absolutely should not be mandatory, I will edit that part out to avoid confusion.

Do the math, almost every day you can google a new plane crash with an engine out where the pilot didn't make it. Often times with a good amount of experience. How many pilots have died pulling their parachutes? I understand sometimes it happens at too low of an altitude, but often that is not the case. And there is nothing wrong with making an emergency landing with a good plot of land. But what happens when you don't have a good option of land? Or you try to turn farther than you should? There are very experienced pilots from this board who died misjudging an engine out when a nice piece of land wasn't straight ahead.
 
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TexDeuce said:
I agree that parachutes absolutely should not be mandatory, I will edit that part out to avoid confusion.

Do the math, almost every day you can google a new plane crash with an engine out where the pilot didn't make it. Often times with a good amount of experience. How many pilots have died pulling their parachutes? I understand sometimes it happens at too low of an altitude, but often that is not the case. And there is nothing wrong with making an emergency landing with a good plot of land. But what happens when you don't have a good option of land?
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A few.

For this pilot I'm 2 for 2, I'll take a backcountry plane over a BRS, at least in my experience it's served me well.
 
Yes, a main parachute, a reserve parachute, 5 point harnesses and airbags need to be mandatory in all aircraft. All planes should also be amphibs with tundra tires and penetration skis. We need to cover every possible scenario so that no one will ever be killed by an airplane ever again.
 
I think you'll find practical matters like money and availability are the real reason they're not more popular.... also weight/cabin space in some aircraft it is available on.

I'm glad they exist and hope to see more of them but a mandatory requirement would ground too many of us.
 
Hmm looks like I can't edit the mandatory part, that is taking away from the discussion and point I wanted to make. Could a moderator take out mandatory from the title? That is not what I wanted this thread to be about, just the safety issue of having a parachute or not having one.
 
Here's an idea - buy a BRS equipped airplane for yourself, if it makes flying better for you. Leave the rest of us alone?

Geez, ever notice how often people feel the need to make rules to control other people's behaviour?
 
And every response has been about the word mandatory. Damn lol. Someone take that out of the title please, I don't want to impose mandatory parachutes on anyone.
 
Re: More parachutes will save lives....too many fatalities

TexDeuce said:
I understand this might be controversial but I feel compelled to say my piece. I read the NTSB reports constantly, along with any plane crashes that register on google. Lately I have seen quite a few plane crashes where the pilot just completely fails to land the plane safely for whatever reason. Looking over the many accidents, I am certain pulling a parachute quickly would have resulted in a much better outcome for a lot of these pilots.
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Interesting claim. Please provide data to back it up.

For example, from January 1 2010 to December 31, 2014, there were about 1900 fatal aircraft accidents in the US. The vast majority were General Aviation aircraft. Please identify the accidents where you believe fatalities would have been avoided had a parachute been installed, to produce a verifiable statistic.

Anything else...well, it's your opinion, and I respect your right to have one. But you won't convince me with words; show the numbers.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Its a mindset. Its not my mindset. I'll take recurrent training for proficiency to cover my accident possibilities any day and it won't cost me the price of a chute in my lifetime.
 
Re: More parachutes will save lives....too many fatalities

wanttaja said:
Interesting claim. Please provide data to back it up.

For example, from January 1 2010 to December 31, 2014, there were about 1900 fatal aircraft accidents in the US. The vast majority were General Aviation aircraft. Please identify the accidents where you believe fatalities would have been avoided had a parachute been installed, to produce a verifiable statistic.

Anything else...well, it's your opinion, and I respect your right to have one. But you won't convince me with words; show the numbers.

Ron Wanttaja
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I would love to have the stats but alas I do not. Sorry Ron, I don't care that much or have the time to go through each fatality of the past 5 years. I cared enough to make a thread and state my opinion, not to provide a full blown scientific study. It's easy enough to read the reports and see if a parachute would have had a good chance to help.

What I am seeing is experienced pilots making grave mistakes with an engine out when a nice and pretty piece of land isn't available. Sometimes it's not a real mistake, just nowhere good to put the plane with a list of bad options. There are also the not so experienced guys making various mistakes where a quick pull of the chute would have rectified the situation. It is pretty clear there are a lot of fatalities where a parachute would have made all the difference, in my humble opinion.
 
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Whelp, here's more of my 2 cents worth.

I spent about $600 and equipped my plane with four point restraints in front. They are rated to 19Gs for something like .191 seconds which is the typical impact pulse strain of the human body during an abrupt decel. I consider this the be a super value proposition. If I could get a chute retrofitted for even 10 times that, I'd seriously consider it. Heck, I'll say right now I would spend ~$6k for a chute for my plane, no question.

Sadly - there is no retro chute offered at any price. And, if someone like me as an engineer were to start designing a retrofit option for my plane, by the time I was done with certification the cost would be 5X the value of the hull. So, notwithstanding the value I place on my life, and the life of my pax, even at $150,000 I can't afford it, and neither can the rest of GA.
 
It could be most aviators are accepting of the current accident and fatality rate.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
It could be most aviators are accepting of the current accident and fatality rate.
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Agreed. Well we'd all like to see it better but we're all generally as a group not as risk averse or responsibility averse about those risks as the general population says we all should be these days. Everyone is a victim, of course. Nobody just screwed up their own life or had an accident. Always somebody else to blame.

Oh yeah. And sometimes **** happens. But usually not. It's usually the pilot's fault.

The OP also stated that we can be hard on each other too, and that's also not a problem for most dead aviators. They don't care much whenever I've asked them.

I don't wanna kill myself in an airplane accident but if I do, I do hope you guys have a good thread to learn something from that pulls no punches on calling me a dumbass.

And I've said it before and my wife knows too, if anyone uses that retarded phrase, "He died doing what he loved," I'm going to resurrect myself and strangle them personally.

No. I died doing something stupid that I shouldn't have been doing. Not what I loved. I loved doing it right. Not wrong.
 
Re: More parachutes will save lives....too many fatalities

TexDeuce said:
I understand this might be controversial but I feel compelled to say my piece. I read the NTSB reports constantly, along with any plane crashes that register on google. Seems like pilots are dying pretty much daily. Lately I have seen quite a few plane crashes where the pilot just completely fails to land the plane safely for whatever reason. Looking over the many accidents, I am certain pulling a parachute quickly would have resulted in a much better outcome for a lot of these pilots.

I hear pilots quick to blame other dead pilots for their incompetence (and it is often valid and should be discussed), but the reality is that pilot could be you. Plenty of these fatalities are by experienced and competent pilots. Even some from this board who have tragically passed. Many ended up in a stall to spin after losing power, often from a decently high elevation. Others ended up smashing into trees or houses at a decent velocity. It appears even well trained pilots misjudge a steep bank angle with no power and stall when it is too late. Even some landings that look ok resulted in disastrous results due to flipping of the aircraft or a harsh landing with an immediate fire on contact. One pilot called ATC and said they had a nice field and they would make the landing. Something happened, they flipped and the plane blew up on what should have been a normal field landing.

And what about engine failure on a dark night or over rough terrain? What about being disoriented in IFR? What if you are caught in rough weather? Would you rather try to make an emergency landing or pull the chute?


Going back and looking at a lot of these accidents, if the pilot had pulled a parachute when things went south I think many of these people would have walked away. The parachutes have a remarkable safety record even when pulled from relatively low altitudes, depending on what you are flying.


Some of you will disagree and say a parachute causes people to act with less responsibility but I fly in many planes with chutes and I have never seen evidence of this. Is the parachute the end all be all of safety? Absolutely not, nothing beats good judgment and piloting skills. But I am starting to think pulling a parachute early would save a lot more lives if it was an option.
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I could easily add a parachute to my experimental fairly reasonable, but regulations and cost prevent adding one to a certified. :dunno:

Airbags & seatbelts along with many other safety devices in vehicles save lives, but still we lose 35,000 people a year due to stupid driver tricks. A plane crashes and everyone is all worked up. When it is your time to go, its your time to go.
 
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I suspect a low fuel idiot light would save more airplanes for less $.
 
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You can add the level of safety you're looking for without adding a chute by eliminating VMC into IMC (if unqualified), fuel mismanagement and stupid human tricks. Do that and you've cut the GA fatality rate tremendously. My wife and I did a scenic Sunday. We had 5 hours of fuel for a 1 hour flight, weather was outstanding in all directions for hundreds of miles and we weren't busting altitude minimums doing something silly. I considered that flight every bit as safe as taking a sunday drive.
 
C'mon mandatory helmets and nomex suits first.:D Secondhand bailout rigs go for a grand, new ones twice that. Wear your parachute on your back like a real man. Charles Lindbergh style(he jumped two or three times from peril.) Better be reasonably fit to get out the door in anger. Course if living long is your goal you better be reasonably fit. Never mind plane crashes your earthbound lifestyle choices are more likely to kill the crap out of you.:lol:
 
FlyingTiger said:
You can add the level of safety you're looking for without adding a chute by eliminating VMC into IMC (if unqualified), fuel mismanagement and stupid human tricks. Do that and you've cut the GA fatality rate tremendously. My wife and I did a scenic Sunday. We had 5 hours of fuel for a 1 hour flight, weather was outstanding in all directions for hundreds of miles and we weren't busting altitude minimums doing something silly. I considered that flight every bit as safe as taking a sunday drive.
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Exactly right...

http://www.kitplanes.com/issues/29_1/exploring/Unusual_Attitude_Safety_is_a_culture_20336-1.html
 
Phoenix said:
C'mon mandatory helmets and nomex suits first.:D Secondhand bailout rigs go for a grand, new ones twice that. Wear your parachute on your back like a real man. Charles Lindbergh style(he jumped two or three times from peril.) Better be reasonably fit to get out the door in anger. Course if living long is your goal you better be reasonably fit. Never mind plane crashes your earthbound lifestyle choices are more likely to kill the crap out of you.:lol:
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:yes:
 
The OP is a reasonable person. I don't argue that more safety is good.

What I do disagree with is the socialist mindset that says, 'since what you are doing (or not doing) makes me uncomfortable therefore you are obligated to make me comfortable again'.
And usually the first new rule promulgated is reasonable, let us say 'seat belts' in cars...
But it never stops there
Then is is shoulder belts
Then it is airbags
Then it is a helmet with head restraint
Then it is a full harness.
Then it is all around airbags.
Then it is an armored impact suit required
Then it is automatic brakes
Then it is automatic steering
Then it is guide rails in the roadway with remote control of the vehicle and no steering wheel

By that time the $19k auto has become a $219k auto, sales are in the dumpster and the country is in another great depression, but HEY, driving is safe so the liberal/socialist/neocom contingent is 'comfortable' again :D
 
Mandatory chutes ,then what? Mandatory airbags,helmets,nomex suites. We fly for the freedom flying represents. This country is going to regulate the average pilot out of flying. You want mandatory chutes,have the govt provide them at their cost.
 
Actually, the statistics show that VMC into IMC is just as fatal for those with the IFR ticket as those without. The only cure for that (if you are of that mindset) is to require that ALL flights be made under IMC rules - no free flight allowed - and the controllers have the authority to force you to either land or turn back..
 
You can look at Cirrus to see that the chute, while a useful tool isn't making a signficant different to the risks involved. In fact, up until very recently, Cirrus has a HIGHER fatal accident rate than industry norm.

While there have been a few chute saves and a few chute pulls that resulted in fatalities, most of the Cirrus incidents didn't result in chute pulls. Some probably should have. It would seem that TRAINING is still the biggest thing you could do to increase the safety rate. Of course, the FAA has made a complete shambles of the voluntary recurrent training system and most insurers don't provide much incentive to get the single engine pilot to take some either (Avemco is the one exception though).

In general, one death per 100,000 flown is a pretty infrequent occurance so making wild assumptions on the raw numbers is pretty weak.
 
The market already offers choice, both new and used. If a parachute is that important to you, put your money where your mouth is and buy a BRS equipped aircraft.

Free choice. Yeah. I like the sound of that....
 
Re: More parachutes will save lives....too many fatalities

TexDeuce said:
I understand this might be controversial but I feel compelled to say my piece. I read the NTSB reports constantly, along with any plane crashes that register on google. Seems like pilots are dying pretty much daily. Lately I have seen quite a few plane crashes where the pilot just completely fails to land the plane safely for whatever reason. Looking over the many accidents, I am certain pulling a parachute quickly would have resulted in a much better outcome for a lot of these pilots.
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While I am not opposed to making aircraft chutes more accessible to the masses, something you need to keep in mind as you ponder this panacea:

Many of these aforementioned landing accidents would not be helped (perhaps even made worse) by a ballistic chute. Unless we are talking about ejection seats, you need sufficient altitude to safely utilize the chute. Engine failure on takeoff, botched landings and the classic base to final stall spin typically happen below that minimum altitude. There was a recent Cirrus fatal accident with chute pull below that altitude - the low altitude deployment of the chute likely resulted in the deaths of the front seat occupants that may have otherwise survived had they not pulled it. We'll never know - but we do know the chute pull in that case was not survivable.

BRS is extremely expensive addition to most aircraft and will not solve all problems.
 
TexDeuce said:
And every response has been about the word mandatory. Damn lol. Someone take that out of the title please, I don't want to impose mandatory parachutes on anyone.
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Yes, you do, or you wouldn't have written it. Things like this are always emotional knee-jerk reactions. The thing that would really limit airplane accidents is mandatory scrapping of all airplanes. Think of the children.
 
Re: More parachutes will save lives....too many fatalities

Fearless Tower said:
While I am not opposed to making aircraft chutes more accessible to the masses, something you need to keep in mind as you ponder this panacea:

Many of these aforementioned landing accidents would not be helped (perhaps even made worse) by a ballistic chute. Unless we are talking about ejection seats, you need sufficient altitude to safely utilize the chute. Engine failure on takeoff, botched landings and the classic base to final stall spin typically happen below that minimum altitude. There was a recent Cirrus fatal accident with chute pull below that altitude - the low altitude deployment of the chute likely resulted in the deaths of the front seat occupants that may have otherwise survived had they not pulled it. We'll never know - but we do know the chute pull in that case was not survivable.

BRS is extremely expensive addition to most aircraft and will not solve all problems.
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what he said. I think that offering them is a great option for those that feel they are worth the cost. Personally, i do not feel they are worth the added cost to me, your mileage may very.

Interesting side question for the cirrus crowd, If cirrus offered the chute as an option how many of you would a. not buy one, b. buy one and at what cost, C. add it at any cost?

Im sure ron w. has the statistics, what percent of engine out accidents were caused by fuel contaminated with air or mismanagement and how many were cause by true engine failure. I am pretty sure that number is rather low compared to the first number. better recurrent training would put a lot larger dent in the numbers than chutes ever would.

bob
 
James331 said:
A few.

For this pilot I'm 2 for 2, I'll take a backcountry plane over a BRS, at least in my experience it's served me well.
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I've heard you tout the 2 "no paint scratched" engine failures... a couple of times on here...Just curious... Seems above average considering I only know of one person in 30 years that had even a partial failure... My go-to instructor I use for biennials and refreshers has over 8,000 hours without even a single partial failure... Just wondering what the circumstances were for your two failures... Not being critical, just honestly, curious...
 
JHW said:
Yes, you do, or you wouldn't have written it. Things like this are always emotional knee-jerk reactions. The thing that would really limit airplane accidents is mandatory scrapping of all airplanes. Think of the children.
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I believe that motor vehicle accidents are still the leading cause of death in children. An astonishing number of those involve alcohol. Accidental drowning is another big one.
 
FlySince9 said:
I've heard you tout the 2 "no paint scratched" engine failures... a couple of times on here...Just curious... Seems above average considering I only know of one person in 30 years that had even a partial failure... My go-to instructor I use for biennials and refreshers has over 8,000 hours without even a single partial failure... Just wondering what the circumstances were for your two failures... Not being critical, just honestly, curious...
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Flying ultra lights? I've had 4 engine outs, 3 with no damage at all. The 4th, not so much. Hit a erosion ditch in a field when the engine quit on take off. :rolleyes2:
 
I think backup cameras should be mandatory in planes. Oh wait never mind...

I am a boring pilot. I fly on nice days, during the day, with lots of fuel and don't do stupid pilot tricks. I do think on occasion about dying in an airplane usually on the ride to the airport. I think about what the headline or NTSB report might read or what conclusions you knuckleheads will make about whatever bonehead move lead to my demise. I pray often I don't take someone else with me but about the time the engine cranks it all goes away and I am in the moment. That is what I love about flying.

I have flown in a Cirrus and have to say the parachute does add a level of comfort in that it is one more option in your tool kit. Having said that the idea of giving up control and becoming a passenger makes me almost equally uncomfortable so in the end for me it is a wash.
 
Anyone can easily have a parachute. They're inexpensive to purchase and aren't even that much to repack. I doubt I'd have reason to bail out of a perfectly good airplane, but the OP may differ.
 
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