More (or mandatory) parachutes will save lives....too many fatalities
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rocketflyer84
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There are certainly cases where a parachute could help and everything else aside I'd rather have a chute than not have one.
However, bringing things back to reality for a moment the facts are that pilot error remains the biggest root cause of serious crashes. Reading a lot of NTSB reports I read a lot more sentences starting with "Pilot's failure to..." than other causes. As such, the data would indicate if the interest is truly on making things safer much better results would be achieved by diverting funds from buying / maintaining parachute across the GA fleet into additional and more frequent recurring training for pilots.
But I get it... the allure of a giant "save my ass please" big red lever is an easy sell.
However, bringing things back to reality for a moment the facts are that pilot error remains the biggest root cause of serious crashes. Reading a lot of NTSB reports I read a lot more sentences starting with "Pilot's failure to..." than other causes. As such, the data would indicate if the interest is truly on making things safer much better results would be achieved by diverting funds from buying / maintaining parachute across the GA fleet into additional and more frequent recurring training for pilots.
But I get it... the allure of a giant "save my ass please" big red lever is an easy sell.
Crane Pilot
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Here we go again on this magical parachute in aircraft. Why is so hard for pilots or so called pilots to just learn how to fly and stay current and proficient with their ratings? I'm sure you can buy a lot of proficency check rides for the price of a chute. Im quite sure most of if not all the deaths could have been prevented by good judgement. The only ones that need to depend on a parachute are jumpers , pilots need to depend on their training and skill not a piece of nylon fabric!!! Just my opinoin.
FloridaPilot
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What is wrong with doing both? Having a Parachute and being the best pilot you can be.
The scary part about this is it doesn't even have to be your fault to have something really bad happen to you and your aircraft. Some pilots out there will break all of the rules and run into you, even if your making the right choices. IMO I would like as many options as I can in accident situations. I don't see the parachute as: "Training wheels" but I see it as simply an option to use in a dire emergency. If you go on the Cirrus website you will meet quite a few people whose lives were saved because of the parachute.
Herve Marchadier
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An airframe parachute won't do me or any other aerial applicator a bit of good.
SixPapaCharlie
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Instrument rated pilot flying in IMC experiences complete instrument failure.
proficient ratings your way out of that.
You must realize that there are many people (dads, sons, brothers, family) alive today because of that "magic". Some subset must have been proficient pilots with lots of training and ratings.
unsafervguy
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Again it comes down to your personal risk tolerance. Looking at the data base how many structural failures, total instrument failures, and mid airs are there? It's a really low number. Are you willing to spend a lot of money to try and mitigate that low number. If so, go buy a cirrus. For me that amount is to high for the amount of risk midigation.
Silvaire
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I've been flying for over 40 years and over that time I've known about a dozen people who have been killed in GA accidents. None of them, except possibly the last, would have been saved by a parachute and in the last case it seems that if he had had a parachute he most likely wouldn't have been flying a Glasair to begin with.
I own two airplanes, one that has flown for 70 years and never crashed, killed or injured anyone. The other has been doing the same for 64 years. I've looked through my logs at all of the n-numbers I've owned, rented and borrowed over the past 40 years and not one of them has ever crashed or killed anyone.
Somewhere between 2000 to 3000 people get killed in automobile accidents every month in the US. In 61 years I've only personally known three people who have died in a car crash.
In 2001 a clown named Reid tried to detonate a homemade "shoe" bomb on an American Airlines flight. Since that time EVERY SINGLE PERSON boarding a commercial flight has had to remove his or her shoes for inspection prior to boarding.
You can spend the money for a chute if you've got it, if that's what you want it's available. Just be aware that there are still hundreds or thousands of other things out there that could still "get you" in spite of it.
I own two airplanes, one that has flown for 70 years and never crashed, killed or injured anyone. The other has been doing the same for 64 years. I've looked through my logs at all of the n-numbers I've owned, rented and borrowed over the past 40 years and not one of them has ever crashed or killed anyone.
Somewhere between 2000 to 3000 people get killed in automobile accidents every month in the US. In 61 years I've only personally known three people who have died in a car crash.
In 2001 a clown named Reid tried to detonate a homemade "shoe" bomb on an American Airlines flight. Since that time EVERY SINGLE PERSON boarding a commercial flight has had to remove his or her shoes for inspection prior to boarding.
You can spend the money for a chute if you've got it, if that's what you want it's available. Just be aware that there are still hundreds or thousands of other things out there that could still "get you" in spite of it.
N5922S
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I'll bet all the playground equipment has been removed from your kids' school. But at least they all get a trophy.
SoCalPilot88
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Lots of anecdotal evidence for or against a chute depending on your situation. Luckily neither option is mandatory, so to each his own.
Evidence I have witnessed here in Southern California has suggested there is some benefit to parachutes so I would probably use one if I it was readily available. Of the dozens of planes I have flown, an NTSB search revealed five were in accidents. One was fatal, probably suicide. Two were engine failure and required a forced landing. The remaining two forced landings would have been easily prevented with even basic training. Forced landings locations: two on freeways, one at an airport and one in a lake.
Of other local accidents I hear about, probably 25% would have had a much better outcome if equipped with parachutes. All the flight training and self-confidence in the world doesn't change the fact the crowded LA basin has minimal forced landing options. But that's my preference, based on my experiences and perspective. Like I said, to each his own.
Evidence I have witnessed here in Southern California has suggested there is some benefit to parachutes so I would probably use one if I it was readily available. Of the dozens of planes I have flown, an NTSB search revealed five were in accidents. One was fatal, probably suicide. Two were engine failure and required a forced landing. The remaining two forced landings would have been easily prevented with even basic training. Forced landings locations: two on freeways, one at an airport and one in a lake.
Of other local accidents I hear about, probably 25% would have had a much better outcome if equipped with parachutes. All the flight training and self-confidence in the world doesn't change the fact the crowded LA basin has minimal forced landing options. But that's my preference, based on my experiences and perspective. Like I said, to each his own.
unsafervguy
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The question is,and I do not know the answer, would landing in the basin under the chute be anymore survivable than say putting It down on a street or the la river? The chute is going to drift with the wind possibly slamming you into a building, power lines Ect. Bottom line is going down in the basin would suck either way.
Bob
SoCalPilot88
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I would certainly worry about power lines
. I think most emergencies would allow some positioning before pulling the chute so you could avoid the huge power lines or high rise buildings. Neighborhood utility lines would probably pose less a risk under a chute than gliding in at 70 knots (most open fields and roads are surrounded by utility lines). If your emergency doesn't permit any maneuvering then good luck with anything other than a parachute. The winds are usually under 15 knots so your horizontal component would not impart much kinetic energy so there would be minimal slamming. Vertical velocity under the chute is said to be 17 knots so you are coming down steeper than a 45 degree angle with those winds.
But that's just my opinion. I'd let the guys who got the Cirrus training opine on how, when and where to pull the chute.
FloridaPilot
Pattern Altitude
As a scenario:
Suppose you go up with a loved one that doesn't know how to fly and something happens to you, what would be your plan to make sure they land safely?
Suppose you go up with a loved one that doesn't know how to fly and something happens to you, what would be your plan to make sure they land safely?
unsafervguy
En-Route
all my loved ones know how to land
again, how many times does that happen. isn't that one of the talking points for getting rid of the third class medical. as I have said before, the question is how much is that piece of mind for a small increase in safety worth to you?
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Phoenix
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What if that loved one is the cause of death? Poisoned, but got the timing wrong. With an airframe parachute the loved one gets away with it, gets the life insurance money, the houses and the insurance check for the plane.
SoCalPilot88
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What if that loved one is the cause of death? Poisoned, but got the timing wrong. With an airframe parachute the loved one gets away with it, gets the life insurance money, the houses and the insurance check for the plane.
I think that was the plot of a Columbo episode starring Johnny Cash. Almost worked!Tarheelpilot
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SixPapaCharlie
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Excellent!
What were the ceilings?
I assume you had a vacuum AI that didn't go out and/or ceilings were not too bad?
If the plane you were flying had a chute would you have been an incompetent pilot that couldn't have survived? Of course not.
Reading these posts leads me to believe you are either well trained or have a chute but cannot have both. That is my only issue. I really couldn't care less about the chute but I don't think it is fair to assume that flying with a chute means someone is automatically a passenger every time they go wheels up.
I would love to hear the story. That sounds terrifying.
FloridaPilot
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I agree!
Tarheelpilot
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I don't look down on chutes. I see them in the same light as any other new technology designed to enhance safety. They are not a silver bullet that can always save us. Just like any other technology they have their place. Nothing more nothing less. If used in the wrong situation they can be deadly.
The key to safe operation is being prepared and making good decisions.
The story I referenced in earlier post was an electrical short on main buss in a 182. Standard 6 pack with /g equipment. Lost everything electrical. I figured a quick and dirty DR timed leg from last position to the approximate center of a block on the sectional that had a highest obstical number below the ceiling and spiraled down until I broke out. Then followed roads back to a runway. Ceiling was a ragged base at 300 but visibility was good. Better than a mile at worst. Tops were roughly 1500. Just a low ifr winter day on east coast without any convection. It wasn't scary until after I landed. At the time I was to busy to be scared.
German guy
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I really wonder why Cirrus pilots become so defensive when it comes to chutes and act as if these were the holy grail of aviation safety?
No question, there are situation in which they might save the day. Personally, I would love to fly a Cirrus.
Some of the Cirrus guys sound however as whether having a chute has to be on top of every pilot’s priority list if he wants to be reasonably safe. Proficiency, training, getting an instruments rating, flying a plane which is adequate for the pilot’s skill level? All irrelevant – get that chute first!
I neither want to bash Cirrus nor chutes – that students or other inexperienced pilots get a Cirrus because they want to be ‘safe’ however raises my concerns and is IMHO a indication, just like some arguments here in this thread, of how subjectively pilots rate risks related to flying.
A BRS is a heavy, expensive piece of equipment which helps only in rather unlikely situations. I therefore certainly don’t see it on top of the safe-pilot’s shopping list, but rather on the third or fourth place after training, maintenance and possibly avionics.
Just think about the guy who hit the power lines a few days ago and whose survival was praised by some people as ‘another rescue by Cirrus’ and that ‘Cirrus can put another feather on their hat’ or something along these lines. Really? Seriously? A $1,000 bucks of night flying with a CFI would have given him a lot more bang for the buck and he never would have even made it into the news….
The point I am trying to make is that some people are IMHO too focused on the ‘magic’ chute and forget about training / proficiency, maintenance and that the plane should be appropriate for their skill level.
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3393RP
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This is a good observation. Some posters seem to classify Cirrus pilots just above those that drool uncontrollably.
It's possible to own a Cirrus and also be a proficient pilot.
Phoenix
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Going to be a Peltzman effect regardless of training.
docmirror
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Cowboy - yeehah!
I think cars should have the driver's airbag removed, and a large sharp spike sticking toward the driver sternum put in place. Should be shiny and aimed squarely at the chest for best effect.
he-heh.
he-heh.
Clark1961
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heresy! to the rack with this one!
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SixPapaCharlie
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Maybe. The only thing I have changed since having access to a chute is that I have less concern about flying at night.
We had a Sierra go down last year at night. mom died. Dad and daughter lived. No fault of the pilot as far as I can tell.
After that, I cut way back on flying at night. I still don't launch after dark very frequently but I feel less anxious at night in the Cirrus.
I still aim to fly like a guy that has 2 kids that want their dad to come home.
Edit: All that said, I have still only been flying for ~3 years. Maybe 10 years from now I will be half asleep, skipping preflight, flying over max on hot days cuz I got the handle. I hope not.
Jim Logajan
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Well they do when they've had the fish.
Phoenix
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The chute doesn't negate all the extra risks of night flight but doing more night flying because you have a chute is the Peltzman Effect in action. Not picking on you, just the way all of our brains work. You can't add a safety device then act like it isn't there, our inner monkey knows more safety means more room to push.
Dead Stick
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The problem with "advanced safety breakthroughs" like airframe parachutes, envelope protection, Cessna's centerline thrust twins, the Piper Arrow's automatic gear, the spin-proof 2-control Ercoupe and many other revolutionary ideas that have been marketed over the years is that they have had very little, if any, impact on the overall safety statistics. The reason they don't is simple, they don't address the real pilot killer - stupid pilot tricks. Don't take me wrong, I'm probably the biggest gadget guy you know and I like airplanes with all of the whistles and bells, but if we're going to discuss what will enhance safety and what will save lives we've got to talk about what, over the years, has a proven track record doing it (training) and what has failed miserably (gadgets).
Phoenix
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Training doesn't help. Working ATP types have the same accident rate as the rest of us when they fly for fun. Freewill + Monkeybrain + Flying machine = Carnage. When at work pro pilots have all sorts of rules and procedures and other people jamming up their freewill, take that away and all the training doesn't help for diddly.
Or, just let it go. Some stupid pilot tricks aren't really stupid - just risks some guys were willing to take, with the full and certain knowledge the outcome could be sketchy. On that occasion, it just wasn't their day, statistically.
100 pounds over gross? If you're within CG, and have enough runway, you're gong to get away with it. Might raise your stall speed, what, one-two knots? Scud running at dusk? Anyone doing it knows it's elevating risk. Did the math, took the chance. It just results in a crater every now-and-then.
What might be key here is to stay within a personal tolerance zone; don't press outside it. See to you personal preparation and skills, and if other folks cowboy themselves into a smoking hole, know that you wouldn't have done things that way.
The only accident "rate" that truly matters is your own, right? Hard to get into a hand-wringing state over other pilot's choices, or all worked up over the "rate", whatever it really, truly is. If more guys are really crashing per hour flown, but you haven't started, personally, performing aerobatics at 500 AGL, or flying drunk in IMC, you are every bit as safe as you ever were. Or weren't. . .
JHW
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The MU2 mandatory training history, says otherwise. That was a huge success and i'd expect to see it replicated for other fast types. Personally, if i was king i'd mandate somethng similar for lancair 4's. I've done the initial flighths on a couple of them and I had to leave before the owner had his first go, i couldn't bear to watch.