More Fun With Alternates

[NealRomeoGolf]

Location: KUIN
Approach: ILS/LOC Rwy 4
Facts: labeled as Alternate NA

The other approaches at KUIN allow the field to be an alternate. So does this just mean that it has to be 800-2 to be considered? What would be a reason for an ILS approach to be NA as an alternate when the rest of the approaches are ok?

My home field has 1 instrument approach and it is NA. I assume it is because our field does not have weather reporting station. What other reasons cause approaches and field to be NA for alternates?

And let's say KUIN is my alternate because the weather will be 800-2. When I get there, I can fly the ILS 4 approach anyway, right?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Location: KUIN
Approach: ILS/LOC Rwy 4
Facts: labeled as Alternate NA

The other approaches at KUIN allow the field to be an alternate. So does this just mean that it has to be 800-2 to be considered? What would be a reason for an ILS approach to be NA as an alternate when the rest of the approaches are ok?

ILS not monitored. The other approaches don't require it.

My home field has 1 instrument approach and it is NA. I assume it is because our field does not have weather reporting station. What other reasons cause approaches and field to be NA for alternates?

Typically it's lack of weather reporting or the lack of a monitored ILS.

And let's say KUIN is my alternate because the weather will be 800-2. When I get there, I can fly the ILS 4 approach anyway, right?

You can go anywhere you want and fly any approach you want. The alternate rules are flight planning rules, not operational rules.

 

[Jim K]

So does this just mean that it has to be 800-2 to be considered

Since that's the only ils, yes.

What would be a reason for an ILS approach to be NA as an alternate when the rest of the approaches are ok?

There no tower to monitor it

What other reasons cause approaches and field to be NA for alternates?

The approach must be monitored to make sure its working

When I get there, I can fly the ILS 4 approach anyway, right?

Yep, fly anything you want. Don't even have to go to kuin, the alternate is primarily a fuel planning thing.

ETA: Clearly @midlifeflyer types faster than me, and certainly knows more than me, both of which are why he writes articles on this subject and I don't...

 

[luvflyin]

Location: KUIN
Approach: ILS/LOC Rwy 4
Facts: labeled as Alternate NA

The other approaches at KUIN allow the field to be an alternate. So does this just mean that it has to be 800-2 to be considered? What would be a reason for an ILS approach to be NA as an alternate when the rest of the approaches are ok?

My home field has 1 instrument approach and it is NA. I assume it is because our field does not have weather reporting station. What other reasons cause approaches and field to be NA for alternates?

And let's say KUIN is my alternate because the weather will be 800-2. When I get there, I can fly the ILS 4 approach anyway, right?

Besides weather reporting, unmonitored facility is a reason. Facility in this case would be the ILS. A thing weird about UIN is the LOC/DME BC RWY 22 doesn’t even have the A symbol. Here’s the Alternate Mins entry in the TPP for Quincy. As far as when you get there, can you fly the ILS, I’d say yes.

 

[flyingron]

Further, you'll have to tell ATC (provided its not a lost com situation) where you want to go if you can't get in your destination. By default, they don't know what you filed as an alternate.
Besides, once you decide to go there, it's now your destination.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Thanks all. I've got the concept down about not having to go to your alternate. I've been trying to go beyond the regs to understand why certain places/approaches are NA for alternates.

By default, they don't know what you filed as an alternate.

I've always found this fact to be odd. If they don't know where you are going, and you lose coms, how do they protect the space at your alternate? If you've squawked 7600 they then go looking for what alternate you filed?

 

[Arnold]

They have flight service on speed dial.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I've always found this fact to be odd. If they don't know where you are going, and you lose coms, how do they protect the space at your alternate? If you've squawked 7600 they then go looking for what alternate you filed?

Well, since you don't have to go there, even if you lose coms, I don't find it odd that they don't know where you might or might not go. The bottom line, if you squawk 7600 - assuming you can squawk 7600, and even if yo don't - they protect wherever they see you going. That's how ATC treats lost com.

IMO, it's actually the most realistic lost com response in 2021. With our modern and integrated navcoms, the likelihood of pilot-side lost com which is not an emergency is pretty small. Heck, you might not even have navigation capability aside from your iPad! Take that likelihood and decrease it by the likelihood it will occur where you never encounter visual conditions.

 

[flyingron]

Thanks all. I've got the concept down about not having to go to your alternate. I've been trying to go beyond the regs to understand why certain places/approaches are NA for alternates.
I've always found this fact to be odd. If they don't know where you are going, and you lose coms, how do they protect the space at your alternate? If you've squawked 7600 they then go looking for what alternate you filed?

Tell me where in 91.185 that the alternate figures into the picture?

 

[noahfong]

Yep, fly anything you want. Don't even have to go to kuin, the alternate is primarily a fuel planning thing.

Interesting. As a corrollary, is that logic the same for the situation of approaches being NA for when the tower is closed? At my airport, KHWD, both approaches have recently being noted as just that: "NA when tower closed".

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Tell me where in 91.185 that the alternate figures into the picture?

91.185 (c) (1) (iv)

Otherwise, why does every DPE want you to answer that the only requirement to use an alternate is lost comms?

 

[Jim K]

Interesting. As a corrollary, is that logic the same for the situation of approaches being NA for when the tower is closed? At my airport, KHWD, both approaches have recently being noted as just that: "NA when tower closed".

Don't know about your airport, nor am I an expert, but usually the NA when not talking about alternates is for a good reason. NA at night is pretty common when there's an obstruction in the visual portion of the approach. The Cherokee 6 that went down in Texas this week was flying into an airport like that at night and hit the trees. NA when tower closed could be for something like the VASI being unmonitored.

 

[midlifeflyer]

91.185 (c) (1) (iv)

Otherwise, why does every DPE want you to answer that the only requirement to use an alternate is lost comms?

Beats me why some DPEs think that.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Interesting. As a corrollary, is that logic the same for the situation of approaches being NA for when the tower is closed? At my airport, KHWD, both approaches have recently being noted as just that: "NA when tower closed".

Yes the same logic applies. Approach NA means not authorized to be used. Period. Alternate NA means not authorized to be used on your flight plan as the listed alternate. One says not at all, the other not for a specific purpose.

Suppose you have ADS-B. You lose com. Your EFB works and checking the weather, your filed alternate has gone down weather-wise and there are other airports within range with better weather. Where will you go?

 

[flyingron]

91.185 (c) (1) (iv)

Nothing about the alternate there. The ROUTE runs from the origin to the destination. The AIM specifically says NOT to include the route to the alternate.

Otherwise, why does every DPE want you to answer that the only requirement to use an alternate is lost comms?

I have never heard a DPE makes such an absurd statement. If they did, it would be wrong. The alternate requirement is to make sure you have enough fuel to make it to a suitable place (one that has suitable forecasted weather and a reasonable approach).

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Nothing about the alternate there. The ROUTE runs from the origin to the destination.


I have never heard a DPE makes such an absurd statement. If they did, it would be wrong. The alternate requirement is to make sure you have enough fuel to make it to a suitable place (one that has suitable forecasted weather and a reasonable approach).

Then someone call the Kings because that's how they teach it.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

I found a thread 2 years ago that addresses this. Interesting. If it comes up tomorrow, it could be fun with my DPE.

 

[jayhawk74]

I think that there are two issues being discussed. One is that the purpose of the alternate is to make sure that in case you can’t land at your destination you have enough fuel to get to an airport with a forecast of weather good enough for landing. The second is the need to go to your alternate nice you are airborne. The only requirement to go to your alternate is in the case of lost comms. If you can’t land at your destination and you haven’t lost comms you can go to any airport you want, provided you still have enough fuel to get to an airport that is forecasting alternate minimums. Heck ATC doesn’t even know what your alternate is.

 

[dtuuri]

The only requirement to go to your alternate is in the case of lost comms. If you can’t land at your destination and you haven’t lost comms you can go to any airport you want...

While that might seem logical for ATC purposes (requirement to go to your listed alternate), I know of no documentation that backs it up. Are you citing some reference new to me?

 

[John Collins]

If you are looking for guidance on when an approach may be used for an alternate, see FAA order 8260.19I. For navigation facilities, monitoring is required, see 2-4-5 and 2-4-6. There are 4 categories of monitoring. Category 1 is monitored by a local control point, usually a tower. Category 3 only has internal monitoring and is typically the case for an ILS at an un-towered airport. Category 3 type monitoring is not approved if "Alternate minimums must not be authorized if facility provides final approach course (FAC) guidance; is required for procedure entry; is used to define the final approach fix (FAF); or is used to provide missed approach guidance". GPS is not a navigation facility and the monitoring requirement is not applicable, see 8-6-11 b.(3) "Alternate minimums are authorized on RNAV (GPS) and RNAV (RNP) SIAPs. However, procedures that only contain LPV minimums cannot be used for determining an Alternate".

8-6-11 o. (4) Weather reporting/altimeter setting.
(a) In accordance with Order 8260.3, an altimeter setting (local or remote) is required to authorize landing minimums. Terminal weather observation and reporting facilities (in addition to remote facility status monitoring) must be available for the airport to serve as an alternate airport. Some airports do not have any weather reporting while others provide this service on a part-time basis. A number of airports have the capability to report altimeter settings only on a full-time or part-time basis. Some operators provide approved weather reporting services, full-time or part-time, to their own company aircraft or on a contract basis to others. Evaluate these factors to determine the type of notation that may be required to support landing and/or alternate minimums.

 

[luvflyin]

Interesting. As a corrollary, is that logic the same for the situation of approaches being NA for when the tower is closed? At my airport, KHWD, both approaches have recently being noted as just that: "NA when tower closed".

I don’t see that on Hayward’s approaches.

 

[John Collins]

Location: KUIN
Approach: ILS/LOC Rwy 4
Facts: labeled as Alternate NA

The other approaches at KUIN allow the field to be an alternate. So does this just mean that it has to be 800-2 to be considered? What would be a reason for an ILS approach to be NA as an alternate when the rest of the approaches are ok?

My home field has 1 instrument approach and it is NA. I assume it is because our field does not have weather reporting station. What other reasons cause approaches and field to be NA for alternates?

And let's say KUIN is my alternate because the weather will be 800-2. When I get there, I can fly the ILS 4 approach anyway, right?

If one was to choose KUIN as an alternate and did not have GPS approach capability, it could be a violation of 91.205 and 91.167 and 91.169. However if a different alternate had been specified in the flight plan that had an approach procedure that complied with the regulations, and you decided for whatever reason to divert to KUIN, there would be no violation and you could fly any procedure your aircraft was equipped to fly. The LOC/DME BC RWY 22 should be charted as NA as it uses the same facility as the ILS does, I sent an inquiry to the FAA to check and get this fixed. There is an update in progress now that changes the circling minimums to the new standards.

 

[Velocity173]

There is no requirement to go to your listed alternate in the event of lost comms. I don’t know who keeps putting that nonsense out. ATC doesn’t even know your alternate. Only way to find out is pick up the landline to FSS. No requirement on their end to do that either.

 

[John Collins]

I don’t see that on Hayward’s approaches.

It is noted on the entry in Alternate Minimums for KHWD. The approach charts just have the inverse A symbol.

 

[John Collins]

There is no requirement to go to your listed alternate in the event of lost comms. I don’t know who keeps putting that nonsense out. ATC doesn’t even know your alternate. Only way to find out is pick up the landline to FSS. No requirement on their end to do that either.

I agree with your basic comment except that FSS won't have any information on your alternate much less any of your IFR flight plan data unless you filed through them. With ICAO filing, the alternate is now included in the FPL message in field 16, so it is at least transmitted to the ATC computer and I assume they can retrieve that portion of the flight plan. FAA domestic flight plans did not have the alternate as part of the transmission to ATC. ATC won't have any of the information from field 19, so if you want them to know your cell phone number, include it in remarks or COM/.

 

[Velocity173]

I agree with your basic comment except that FSS won't have any information on your alternate much less any of your IFR flight plan data unless you filed through them. With ICAO filing, the alternate is now included in the FPL message in field 16, so it is at least transmitted to the ATC computer and I assume they can retrieve that portion of the flight plan. FAA domestic flight plans did not have the alternate as part of the transmission to ATC. ATC won't have any of the information from field 19, so if you want them to know your cell phone number, include it in remarks or COM/.

Well if ICAO flight plans transmit alternate to ATC now, it’s still useless information because there’s no requirement to go to the alternate.

Brings up another thing, all the additional aircraft equipment listed on on ICAO that replaced the simple equipment suffix. Useless on the ATC end and you’d be hard pressed to find a controller that understands what any of it means.

 

[luvflyin]

It is noted on the entry in Alternate Minimums for KHWD. The approach charts just have the inverse A symbol.

Yes, on the Alternate Minimums. I had replied to post# 10. “Interesting. As a corrollary, is that logic the same for the situation of approaches being NA for when the tower is closed? At my airport, KHWD, both approaches have recently being noted as just that: "NA when tower closed".

 

[masloki]

Well if ICAO flight plans transmit alternate to ATC now, it’s still useless information because there’s no requirement to go to the alternate.

I take exception with “useless.” Alternates are a plan B that ideally a pilot evaluated from the comfort of their chair. Once my radio goes dead and I am in the soup, the first plan is A, and if that doesn’t work, B. Those are the ones I spent some time thinking about and have a picture in my mind. If A and B are out, I’ve got my work cut out for me. I am really looking forward to my autopilot install.

I can’t speak for what ATC does typically, but if you see a NORDO aimed at their alternate, it’s a piece of the puzzle that fits into place. If you don’t, then you are clearing more airspace and wondering if they have a gyro failure or other much larger issues going on.

 

[John Collins]

ATC is most likely going to track you via secondary radar or ADS-B or if neither of them are working, by primary radar.

 

[John Collins]

Well if ICAO flight plans transmit alternate to ATC now, it’s still useless information because there’s no requirement to go to the alternate.

Brings up another thing, all the additional aircraft equipment listed on on ICAO that replaced the simple equipment suffix. Useless on the ATC end and you’d be hard pressed to find a controller that understands what any of it means.

Just because there isn't a requirement to proceed to the alternate, does not make the information useless. It is still the most likely diversion point.

Regarding your other thing, true, the ATC training has not caught up, but it is a matter of time. Currently the equipment codes primarily affect the computer routing, but some are particularly important for flying RNAV routes, SIDs, STARs, and RVSM. They also affect receiving CPDLC DCL and oceanic flight. For piston GA, there is often not much if anything gained.

 

[John Collins]

I take exception with “useless.” Alternates are a plan B that ideally a pilot evaluated from the comfort of their chair. Once my radio goes dead and I am in the soup, the first plan is A, and if that doesn’t work, B. Those are the ones I spent some time thinking about and have a picture in my mind. If A and B are out, I’ve got my work cut out for me. I am really looking forward to my autopilot install.

I can’t speak for what ATC does typically, but if you see a NORDO aimed at their alternate, it’s a piece of the puzzle that fits into place. If you don’t, then you are clearing more airspace and wondering if they have a gyro failure or other much larger issues going on.

I would agree that "useless" is not a valid characterization, but once you are airborne and the weather or flight situation changes, the destination or the alternate may not be the best choice. It was sad to see the case where a pilot over flew nearby VFR airports that are not along the filed path and ends up running out of gas, because both the destination and alternate went way below minimums. Reevaluating the choices in flight is a continuous process, and we should never be wed to Plan A or B.

 

[Velocity173]

I take exception with “useless.” Alternates are a plan B that ideally a pilot evaluated from the comfort of their chair. Once my radio goes dead and I am in the soup, the first plan is A, and if that doesn’t work, B. Those are the ones I spent some time thinking about and have a picture in my mind. If A and B are out, I’ve got my work cut out for me. I am really looking forward to my autopilot install.

I can’t speak for what ATC does typically, but if you see a NORDO aimed at their alternate, it’s a piece of the puzzle that fits into place. If you don’t, then you are clearing more airspace and wondering if they have a gyro failure or other much larger issues going on.

If they’ve filed an alternate with FSS, then they can get that alternate in a few seconds. It doesn’t need to be sent to ATC.

The alternate airport was never intended to be a plan B. It’s nothing more than a fuel requirement that the FAA put on pilots to give them a buffer. It’s not an intent to do anything after the original destination. Once an aircraft goes missed and just so happens to go lost commo, game over. They can go where ever they want. Could be the alternate but that’s no good to ATC because it’s still an unknown.

Now, if in the future the FAA made the alternate mandatory to be flown to, then yeah that would give ATC some heads up in planning. Enough to really matter in most cases? Nope. Unless they’re going into KATl during rush hour, it’s not hard to monitor the progress of a 7600 code and clear a path.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I would agree that "useless" is not a valid characterization, but once you are airborne and the weather or flight situation changes, the destination or the alternate may not be the best choice. It was sad to see the case where a pilot over flew nearby VFR airports that are not along the filed path and ends up running out of gas, because both the destination and alternate went way below minimums. Reevaluating the choices in flight is a continuous process, and we should never be wed to Plan A or B.

...and onboard weather makes the process of updating conditions so easy.

 

[John Collins]

The LOC/DME BC RWY 22 should be charted as NA as it uses the same facility as the ILS does, I sent an inquiry to the FAA to check and get this fixed.

I got this response:

Your Aeronautical Inquiry has been closed. If you have followup questions or comments, please use the online inquiry form instead of sending via email.

========================================================
FAA Response:

Hi,

A NOTAM has been issued.

!FDC 1/7503 UIN IAP QUINCY RGNL-BALDWIN FLD, QUINCY, IL.
LOC/DME BC RWY 22, AMDT 6A...
ALTERNATE MINIMUMS NA.
2106211935-2306201935EST

 

[Sluggo63]

So, if my planned destination is 800-2 and the only suitable alternate within reach is forecast to be 200-1/2, I'm not legal to go ... but if I file to the 200-1/2 airfield and use the 800-2 as my alternate, then I'm legal to go and when I get close to my "destination" divert to my "alternate."

 

[RussR]

Interesting. As a corrollary, is that logic the same for the situation of approaches being NA for when the tower is closed? At my airport, KHWD, both approaches have recently being noted as just that: "NA when tower closed".

The approaches are not NA when the control tower is closed. They are NA for use in alternate airport planning when the tower is NA. That's why it's listed in the Alternate Minimums section. If you get there and the tower is closed, you can still fly them.

 

[masloki]

I am a little confused with the sentiment. I am still newly minted for my IR and maybe its because my plane is less capable (it's got a windshield defrogger!). I understand the regs about 45 minutes plus able to shoot the approaches. But, in my training, alternate selection was about services available (long runways, lighted approaches, maintenance) and weather trends favoring different directions. Along with pros and cons about filed alternates vs going missed and negotiating with ATC a handy alternate vs no filed alternates when you need to not tanker fuel.

 

[Sluggo63]

I am a little confused with the sentiment. I am still newly minted for my IR and maybe its because my plane is less capable (it's got a windshield defrogger!). I understand the regs about 45 minutes plus able to shoot the approaches. But, in my training, alternate selection was about services available (long runways, lighted approaches, maintenance) and weather trends favoring different directions. Along with pros and cons about filed alternates vs going missed and negotiating with ATC a handy alternate vs no filed alternates when you need to not tanker fuel.

Well, I think that there's a difference between a "legal on paper" alternate and a "smart" alternate. If your destination is 3000-2 1/2 and forecast to remain the same or get better, my alternate planning might not include every contingency. If my destination is 200-1/2 and it's been up and down all day, you bet that I'm finding an alternate that's going to be able to support me if (and possibly when) I have to go there. In that case, I'd probably have a plan B & C in my back pocket.

 

[flyingron]

That is for sure Sluggo. If I want to file IFR into my home field, which does not have an approach, I always need an alternate. The airport five miles north has an ILS so I can use that if the weather is 600-2. Now, if I actually filed to that airport, the nearest legal alternate is now 20 miles away. So it makes less sense to file a lesser alternate for going into a no-approach strip that it would if you were going into one with an ILS down to 200-1/4. I always plan to go to the nearest big airport. In the even things go south, having a big runway with bright lighting is a big help.

 

[flyingron]

You have to file an alternate unless your destination has an approach and the weather one hour before to one hour after is expected to be 1000-3 or better.
If not, you have to find an alternate that is authorized and has forecast weather at 600-2 if it is an ILS or 800-2 for anything else.