Mooneys..M20

On a "test" flight, I (5' 9") sat in the back of our M20C before we bought it, and it was fine for a short flight. Something like a $100 hamburger run is okay. I wouldn't want to be back there for 3+ hours, though.

As @Huckster79 said, landing is pretty straightforward. Get a good checkout and get comfortable with where your speeds need to be. I've kind of gotten in a bad habit of being a smidge too high on approach, but even then if you hold the right speed all the way into the flare you can easily land it and rollout w/o touching the brakes on most GA fields.

Sit in one and see if you fit and like it. They do seem cramped at first, but visibility in flight is pretty good. Get a good pre-buy, check the tanks (sealed or bladders), check the gear (nose gear esp), look for corrosion like any other antique airplane that many of us fly.
 
Mine has the throttle quadrant, I honestly never thought twice about it, actually kinda like how the flaps are far far away from the gear lever.
 
How bulletproof are the injected o-360's and do you think spending 60k for a mid to late time engine is worth it? Is there any place I can look up what AD's these planes need? Aside from the hub and I know there can be some corrosion on the frame near the windows, what other things should I be looking for? I see skywagon is selling one for about 79k but i'm trying to keep it under 60k if possible. I do watch a lot of his videos and he is really knowledgeable and I know he owns one.
 
francisco collazos said:
How bulletproof are the injected o-360's and do you think spending 60k for a mid to late time engine is worth it? Is there any place I can look up what AD's these planes need? Aside from the hub and I know there can be some corrosion on the frame near the windows, what other things should I be looking for? I see skywagon is selling one for about 79k but i'm trying to keep it under 60k if possible. I do watch a lot of his videos and he is really knowledgeable and I know he owns one.
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Between the missing logbook, only 686 hours since 1996, and avionics on that one...I would consider other options first.
 
mark.staggs said:
Between the missing logbook, only 686 hours since 1996, and avionics on that one...I would consider other options first.
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That one is worth a closer look. Yeah, the hours aren’t great but dig into where it is stored. Mostly arid and dry, less chance of corrosion. Get the logbooks and read the entries…are they doing preventative maintenance or fix only as needed. Same owner for 28 years, you’ll get the vibe pretty quick of how he maintained the plane. As there are no avionics upgrades, either they are old school and VFR only, or they cut corners everywhere. As an idea, I maintain mine like my family is riding with me, because they do, and I want as much security as I can reasonably afford. And it shows because most of my maintenance is during the annual with a few repairs between annuals. So, while the plane is down, I take care of X and Y. If the annuals are oil changes and ADs…well, that’s pretty telling. Harder to tell with a plane that doesn’t move much, because the annual is when you find stuff so your red flag will be the plane doesn’t move much and many annuals that don’t find anything.

I cannot emphasize enough…if they cut corners more than a few times, run the hell away. I’ll skip nice to have, cosmetic stuff (e.g. TKM nav2 still dead after troubleshooting a couple times, Rajay ain’t boosting like it should and no one knows why so it eats an AMU every six months), but no way I’m skipping stuff that keeps the plane in the air.
 
So this is interesting, I was supposed to fly to jax yesterday but i'll save you the details and make it short but ended up flying to plant city instead. As we were getting ready to depart on the hold short line a Mooney was coming in for landing full stop. So we ended up taxiing over to the hangers and I was able to get a good look at the plane. The owner let me sit in it as well. It was a 60's M20e model with two G5 in it.
So I see where people say its cramped but I think its the door size and the seating position makes a huge difference. I'm about 5'8 so my seating position leaves plenty of room for the people in the back seats. Also it feels like the seating position is more laid back and not so straight up like in the Cherokee and it seems like my legs sit further into the dash. Definately feels faster just by sitting in the plane.
 
francisco collazos said:
So this is interesting, I was supposed to fly to jax yesterday but i'll save you the details and make it short but ended up flying to plant city instead. As we were getting ready to depart on the hold short line a Mooney was coming in for landing full stop. So we ended up taxiing over to the hangers and I was able to get a good look at the plane. The owner let me sit in it as well. It was a 60's M20e model with two G5 in it.
So I see where people say its cramped but I think its the door size and the seating position makes a huge difference. I'm about 5'8 so my seating position leaves plenty of room for the people in the back seats. Also it feels like the seating position is more laid back and not so straight up like in the Cherokee and it seems like my legs sit further into the dash. Definately feels faster just by sitting in the plane.
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Uh oh, you’re gunna get hooked.

Headed to bed before a flight home from walleye fishing near KBDE again, 622nm, 4hrs 30 min it looks like, 45 gallons probably… No fuel stops… I’ll beat the rest of the gang by 1-3hrs w their speed n fuel stops. The speed and gas sipping ability combine to even greater efficiency time wise with less fuel stops. I mentioned their efficiency earlier but forgot to point out less fuel stops adds even more time efficiency
 
Huckster79 said:
Uh oh, you’re gunna get hooked.
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Yep. My first exposure to Mooneys was Ed Guthrie's 201, for those who remember him from ages ago. (He still owns the plane, too, almost 20 years later.) And it was quite a positive impression.
Huckster79 said:
Headed to bed before a flight home from walleye fishing near KBDE again, 622nm, 4hrs 30 min it looks like, 45 gallons probably… No fuel stops… I’ll beat the rest of the gang by 1-3hrs w their speed n fuel stops. The speed and gas sipping ability combine to even greater efficiency time wise with less fuel stops. I mentioned their efficiency earlier but forgot to point out less fuel stops adds even more time efficiency
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For sure. If I can stand to sit in the plane long enough, I can go nonstop from here in Wisconsin to basically anywhere in the CONUS east of the Rockies. The entire CONUS is accessible with a single stop. Twice I've done west coast back to Wisconsin with one stop; KPWT-KGEY-KETB and KHIO-9V5-KUES.

I do prefer to keep it to more like 3-hour legs, but even so it's only a single stop to get anywhere in the eastern 2/3 of the country... And by leaving behind the 3 hours of fuel I no longer need (Full fuel is 7.3 hours worth!) I can take 4 adults and bags for the weekend to Houston... And I have.
 
The fuselage is rounded and if you have 2 broad shoulder passengers they will be cramped, front seats can be staggered to avoid this.

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I love the range
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I've been looking at Mooney's lately as well. For reference, I'll add a comment about insurance since it was mentioned a couple times.

Asked my insurance folks I've had for 8 years recently to drop me a quote on a 1970' M20C.

Pilot- 64/yrs old
970 flight hours with 55 hours in Make and model


Hull Value- Deductibles:Liability Limits:
$80,000
$1,000,000 Combined Single Limit (Bodily Injury and Property Damage)Subject to: $100,000 Per Passenger
$5,000 Each Person
Total Annual Premium: $2,405.00
State Tax: $223.00

ymmv
 
BTW, for the OP and anyone else who is interested in Mooneys, here's the quick primer:

There are "short body" (M20-M20E), "mid body" (M20F-M20K), and "long body" (M20L-M20V) variants.

The most popular/most produced ones are:

M20C (aka "Mark 21"/"Ranger"): 180hp short body
M20E ("Super 21"/"Chaparral"): 200hp short body
M20F ("Executive 21"): 200hp mid body
M20J "201": 200hp mid body with a bunch of aerodynamic cleanup, often considered the quintessential Mooney
M20K "231": Basically a J with a turbo 210hp Conti TSIO-360.
M20K "252"/"TSE": A 231 with a better turbo setup.
M20M "TLS"/Bravo: Long body, turbo 270hp Lycoming 540
M20R Ovation: Long body normally aspirated 280hp Conti IO-550
M20TN Acclaim: Long body turbo Conti TSIO-550, replaced the Bravo. Fastest certified production piston single.
M20U: Ovation Ultra, some composite fuselage parts and two doors.
M20V: Acclaim Ultra, same modes to the Acclaim

The less well known, less produced ones:
M20, M20A, M20B: The early models. Started with a wood wing and 150hp, Picked up 180hp on the A, became all metal with the B.
M20D Master: A fixed-gear trainer version of the M20C. Most have been converted back to retractable gear, but there are a few that are still fixed gear.
M20G Statesman: An F (mid body) with 180hp.
M20L PFM (for Porsche FlugMotor): The "Porsche Mooney". First long body, came with a Porsche engine. Very few (4?) still flying in this configuration, most converted to M20M.
M20S Eagle: An Ovation that's derated to 244hp and a MGTOW of 3200 lb compared to the R's 3368.

There's also the Mooney Missile and the Mooney Rocket which are older J and K models converted with big 300+hp engines by Rocket Engineering. This mod is no longer available.

Also, newer Ovations ("Ovation 3" and Ultra) have 310hp instead of 280, thanks to being dialed back up to 2700 RPM from the older Ovations' 2500 and a different prop. This conversion is still available.

Finally, there's the few non-M20 Mooneys:

M10 Cadet: Mooney's version of the Ercoupe, an Ercoupe with the "backwards" Mooney tail.
M18 Mite: A single-seat Mooney
M22 Mustang: Pressurized Mooney, only about 40 built.
 
For completeness:

Missile - Continental IO-550
Rocket - Continental TSIO-520 with full feathering prop.

They can be based on a 201, 231 or 252.
 
Longest non-stop I have done was KBJC back to NE Maryland. 1334 miles direct. According to Flight Aware 7 hours 3 minutes from take off to touchdown. But I had some nice tailwinds. Hit 229 knot GS at one point.
 
Pinecone said:
Longest non-stop I have done was KBJC back to NE Maryland. 1334 miles direct. According to Flight Aware 7 hours 3 minutes from take off to touchdown. But I had some nice tailwinds. Hit 229 knot GS at one point.
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How many Gatorade bottles do you pack for a trip like that?
 
Trip home to MI from MN-

We tracked it at about 20mpg! Averaged 149kt from take off to landing, no stops 4hrs 10mins. With avoiding the fuel stops the Cessnas and Grumman had to make and our speed combined to beating them all by 3hrs.

Her efficiency of time usage is a combo of the speed but also the gas sipping tendency thus skipping stops.

And as mentioned above if I take fuel for 3hr flight plus hour reserve there’s 4 real adults and decent baggage and still legal TO weight… that 3 hr flight puts me 500 miles give/take…

Someday I may get a tailwheel “jeep” type plane for a fun addition, but once you start truly traveling- I think they are a perfect sweet spot.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
The fuselage is rounded and if you have 2 broad shoulder passengers they will be cramped, front seats can be staggered to avoid this.

2248cb07b80768892e7d8c1b3f9fce8a.jpg


I love the range
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Wow, top speed on that trip was 1,200 mph. What type of gas are you using?
 
Salty said:
Lack of retract time is going to be a large factor in insurance.
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How many hours gets you on the downward trend? My school has an Arrow; I'm thinking that using it for complex time-building prior to buying might help w/insurance....?
 
StraightnLevel said:
How many hours gets you on the downward trend? My school has an Arrow; I'm thinking that using it for complex time-building prior to buying might help w/insurance....?
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The lady was nice enough to let me know that hangar = 9% reduction on hull policy part. IR another 9% reduction on policy cost. She said there were different tiers but that was about it.
 
StraightnLevel said:
How many hours gets you on the downward trend? My school has an Arrow; I'm thinking that using it for complex time-building prior to buying might help w/insurance....?
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I saw a reduction in mine at 100 hours. I think it might be 200-250 now days.
 
 
bflynn said:
It’s been a complex journey.
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That's an understatement. Mooney is the trick candle of aircraft manufacturers. IIRC they're up to 14 times having assets sold to new entities, or coming back from bankruptcy, or whatever else.
francisco collazos said:
well I just got an insurance quote for a mooney.....$4600 yikes!! o_O o_O :oops::blueplane::blueplane:
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I'm guessing you're a relatively new pilot without an instrument rating and little or no complex time?

An airplane with retractable landing gear is one "oops" away from having all of its engines removed and torn down and props and belly skin replaced. Insurance companies want to be reasonably sure you're not going to do that, and if you're in a group (low time VFR pilots) not known for success in that area, it's gonna be expensive.

The good news: If you buy the airplane, fly the hell out of it while getting your IR as quickly as you can, then you can go shopping for new insurance. Even the same company/underwriter would likely give you a substantial discount at that point.
StraightnLevel said:
How many hours gets you on the downward trend? My school has an Arrow; I'm thinking that using it for complex time-building prior to buying might help w/insurance....?
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I would bet there are breaks at 50, 100, and 200/250... But it's going to vary.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
guessing you're a relatively new pilot without an instrument rating and little or no complex time?
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Yeah I have about 260 hrs and this November it will be 2 yrs since I got my ppl. I'm working on my ir and have about 30hrs.
The quote was through avemco so I wonder if it's work getting other quotes. I think I could do about 100 hr a year and get my ir with in the next year or just fly complex but I'll probably have to travel to Tampa for that
 
Aviation insurance doesn’t seen to have different levels of deductibles like auto insurance. I think it would it lower rates if they did.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That's an understatement. Mooney is the trick candle of aircraft manufacturers. IIRC they're up to 14 times having assets sold to new entities, or coming back from bankruptcy, or whatever else.

I'm guessing you're a relatively new pilot without an instrument rating and little or no complex time?

An airplane with retractable landing gear is one "oops" away from having all of its engines removed and torn down and props and belly skin replaced. Insurance companies want to be reasonably sure you're not going to do that, and if you're in a group (low time VFR pilots) not known for success in that area, it's gonna be expensive.

The good news: If you buy the airplane, fly the hell out of it while getting your IR as quickly as you can, then you can go shopping for new insurance. Even the same company/underwriter would likely give you a substantial discount at that point.

I would bet there are breaks at 50, 100, and 200/250... But it's going to vary.
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huge drop for me came at 100 hours, IR really wasn't that much
 
francisco collazos said:
Yeah I have about 260 hrs and this November it will be 2 yrs since I got my ppl. I'm working on my ir and have about 30hrs.
The quote was through avemco so I wonder if it's work getting other quotes. I think I could do about 100 hr a year and get my ir with in the next year or just fly complex but I'll probably have to travel to Tampa for that
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OK. Avemco is the broker and the underwriter all in one company, so they work a bit different from the rest of the industry. Overall that's not better or worse, just different.

Avemco is good for planning because they don't require a tail number to get a quote. Many brokers will want a tail number to get you a quote because what they do is go to different underwriters on your behalf. If you then go to another broker, who goes to those same underwriters on your behalf, the quotes will likely be very similar but now you're asking multiple people to repeat work for you and obviously they don't like that so there is some sort of a "blacklist" where once you get one broker working with you on a particular tail, others won't. Just something to be aware of.

As far as the difference, I have heard that Avemco can be more expensive, but they're very easy to work with. They'll also tell you exactly what it'll take to get your rates reduced in terms of total/retract time, ratings, etc if you ask. They also offer things like a 5% reduction for getting additional instruction (beyond what is required) each year, WINGS credit, safe flying credit (no claims), etc.
MackMooney said:
huge drop for me came at 100 hours, IR really wasn't that much
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As with all things aviation, "it depends". Different underwriters will have different standards for the drops. It also depends whether you got the IR or the 100 hours first.
 
Wow! I’m not IR, and was around 500 hrs with zero retract time and Avemco was the only one that wasn’t crazy… it was pricey but the others were 30% more or better if I recall right. Mine started at 3800 but is now down to $2600, it was odd numbers I got the breaks at but they told them to me up front. Like 62 and 128… seemed odd. Evidently those few hundred more helped more than idda thought, well and I need to raise my hull from 85 to 100/110…

Would they have factored in my 400 of tailwheel as a factor?
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Aviation insurance doesn’t seen to have different levels of deductibles like auto insurance. I think it would it lower rates if they did.
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There are seldom minor things in aircraft. So a $1000 deductible is not going to reduce claims.

And I would bet that most owners don't claim the small things anyway, so it works like a deductible. :D
 
The BIG driver in price of insurance is the hull value. The annual cost is a direct percentage of that.
 
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