Mooney (what's wrong)

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dennyleeb

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I think last year they sold 7 planes total and this year doesn't look much better. First quarter 2017 they have sold 2 planes. Can't keep the doors open very long at that rate. I always thought mooney was a well built plane. Pretty cramped for a guy my size and a low useful load but for someone flying with 1-2 people it makes sense. I went to their display at sun n fun and they had some beautiful planes but I couldn't even get a Rep to talk to me. That's one reason for sure. Many "enthusiast" think they are far superior to the SR cirrus line that sold 57 planes in the first qtr. Appartently enthusiast dont translate into buyers.

https://gama.aero/wp-content/uploads/2017ShipmentReport-Q1-1.pdf
 
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dennyleeb said:
I think last year they sold 7 planes total and this year doesn't look much better. First quarter 2017 they have sold 2 planes. Can't keep the doors open very long at that rate. I always thought mooney was a well built plane. Pretty cramped for a guy my size and a low useful load but for someone flying with 1-2 people it makes sense. I went to their display at sun n fun and they had some beautiful planes but I couldn't even get a Rep to talk to me. That's one reason for sure. Many "enthusiast" think they are far superior to the SR cirrus line that sold 57 planes in the first qtr. Appartently enthusiast dont translate into buyers.

https://gama.aero/wp-content/uploads/2017ShipmentReport-Q1-1.pdf
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While reading that chart, I kept expecting to see a footnote that said the numbers were "*100" or even 1,000. It is incredible how few new GA airplanes are sold. I wonder what their costs wold be if those numbers were increased dramatically. Would the cost per aircraft come down enough to stimulate sales to any appreciable difference?
 
I had the opportunity to fly a Mooney. Great plane! But i concur that at this rate it will be hard to stay open. I worry about parts long term thats why i ended up with a Cirrus.
 
EminiTrader said:
Huh? You can buy a well equipped Mooney or Cirrus for 150-225k. Why spend a million?
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Yep. A nice ovation can be bought for 200k but those don't help the factory keep the doors open.

One thing I have heard from mechanics is that they are hard to work on? Any mechanics on here that can confirm or deny that?
 
dennyleeb said:
Yep. A nice ovation can be bought for 200k but those don't help the factory keep the doors open.

One thing I have heard from mechanics is that they are hard to work on? Any mechanics on here that can confirm or deny that?
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Few years ago before i bought my first plane i wanted to buy a Mooney. My AP said depending on what goes its hard to get parts.
 
eman1200 said:
hooray, another mooney-bashing thread WHOOP WHOOP
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In what way?

Bash.ing

violent physical assault.
"nine incidents of gay bashing were reported to the police"
  • severe criticism.
 
EminiTrader said:
Few years ago before i bought my first plane i wanted to buy a Mooney. My AP said depending on what goes its hard to get parts.
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I just wonder if that's true or not. I read so many cirrus post that are incorrect that it laughable. Makes me wonder if this is the same type of criticism.
 
dennyleeb said:
I just wonder if that's true or not. I read so many cirrus post that are incorrect that it laughable. Makes me wonder if this is the same type of criticism.
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Well i didnt make it up if thats what you mean. Is it 100 percent true? No clue. Could careless to be honest. Just sharing my experience. Take it or dont
 
EminiTrader said:
Well i didnt make it up if thats what you mean. Is it 100 percent true? No clue. Could careless to be honest. Just sharing my experience. Take it or dont
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Not what I meant at all. I have heard the same thing from a few different mechanics. I would like to hear some specifics from actual mechanics. That's all I was saying.
 
Why would anyone buy a new one when they can get a beautiful low time used one?

If they want to get those numbers up and sell NEW aircraft they need to bring a NEW product or feature to market.
 
dennyleeb said:
Not what I meant at all. I have heard the same thing from a few different mechanics. I would like to hear some specifics from actual mechanics. That's all I was saying.
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Roger that
 
James331 said:
Why would anyone buy a new one when they can get a beautiful low time used one?

If they want to get those numbers up and sell NEW aircraft they need to bring a NEW product or feature to market.
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At some point the factory not being open and owned by foreign investors could hurt the used market though. Especially if parts become scarce or overly priced.
It was closed for what the last 6-8 years? Did that affect any owners getting parts?
 
Same old story with Mooney. Bankrupt, some new buyer / CEO takes over. Rinse and repeat in 10 years.

Two things "wrong" with Mooney. Their direct competition is Cirrus. Cirrus has established themselves as the number one single engine piston producer in the world. Let's face it, while it looks good and is well equipped, the chute does sell the plane. Enough to tip the SE GA market in their favor.

Second, the overall SE GA market has been on a steady decline since the late 70s. Rapid decline after the recession. Right now we're at 1990s single engine production numbers. Three primary causes: decline in PPL population, new aircraft prices outstripping inflation, more than adequate used aircraft on the market for said PPL population decline.
 
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EminiTrader said:
Huh? You can buy a well equipped Mooney or Cirrus for 150-225k. Why spend a million?
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We are talking about "new production" here. Buying and selling old planes isn't going to keep the production lines open.
 
eman1200 said:
hooray, another mooney-bashing thread WHOOP WHOOP
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I don't think this has anything to do with mooney-bashing. It is a comment on the state of GA aircraft production. Even Cirrus's numbers don't seem sustainable to me.
 
JOhnH said:
I don't think this has anything to do with mooney-bashing. It is a comment on the state of GA aircraft production. Even Cirrus's numbers don't seem sustainable to me.
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Cirrus is almost sold out through 2017. They took the approach of lower numbers, higher quality, higher margins over selling 7-800 a year like they were prior to 08. Their model is for selling 300 a year now. Which is exactly what they have sold the last half decade.
 
dennyleeb said:
I think last year they sold 7 planes total and this year doesn't look much better. First quarter 2017 they have sold 2 planes.
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I was making this point in other threads. The numbers are the numbers. And there are GA piston singles selling in the hundreds per year, they are called Cirrus. Frankly, an aircraft is an aircraft and the Mooney is a great plane in it's own way. It just happens to be a plane no one wants to buy new.
 
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dennyleeb said:
Cirrus is almost sold out through 2017. They took the approach of lower numbers, higher quality, higher margins over selling 7-800 a year like they were prior to 08. Their model is for selling 300 a year now. Which is exactly what they have sold the last half decade.
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Cirrus didn't "take" that approach. It was forced into it. At this time there is no market for 700 or 800 Cirrus piston airplanes per year. Total piston single aircraft new deliveries in 2016 were only 890 airplanes from all manufacturers, down from over 2500 new planes delivered in 2006, which was also Cirrus' peak year at 721 airplanes.

Like all GA light aircraft manufacturers Cirrus sales collapsed during the financial crisis, and never came back anywhere near the pre-crisis numbers. Cirrus came close to going under, and that was one reason for the change in controlling shareholder.

Cirrus today is the "best" of a moribund group. Not exactly something to celebrate.
 
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[QUOTE="Velocity173, post: 2291011, member: 12000"Same old story with Mooney. Bankrupt, some new buyer /. Cirrus has established themselves as the number one single engine piston producer.[/QUOTE]

Only if you count ones that come in one piece, count the ones that come in multiple boxes and vans beats them hands down. :)
 
GRG55 said:
Cirrus didn't "take" that approach. It was forced into it. At this time there is no market for 700 or 800 Cirrus piston airplanes per year.
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All aircraft manufacturers numbers are today below what they had during the bubble not just Cirrus.

Cirrus is the best seller relative to the economy and the general state of GA aviation. They were during the bubble too.

Cirrus actually has to limit production of the SR20 and SR22 because they carved out a quarter of their factory to make the SF50. I know, I was there and saw it and discussed that 'nice problem to have' with them.
 
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There is really nothing wrong with the Cirrus, but I swear I have never seen a cult like mentality since Jonestown. For the uninformed, this is an extension of the ****ing contest that erupted in the Icon crash thread which precipitated the All things Cirrus thread. But I do think we needed this Mooney sucks thread.:rolleyes:
 
unsafervguy said:
[QUOTE="Velocity173, post: 2291011, member: 12000"Same old story with Mooney. Bankrupt, some new buyer /. Cirrus has established themselves as the number one single engine piston producer.
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Only if you count ones that come in one piece, count the ones that come in multiple boxes and vans beats them hands down. :)[/QUOTE]

Yuck, Vans.:( Besides the RV-8A, they're plain Jane looking aircraft. Yep...I just said that.
 
I expect no less from someone that flies a backwards built airplane with a training wheel on it...... ;)
 
Velocity173 said:
Yuck, Vans.:( Besides the RV-8A, they're plain Jane looking aircraft. Yep...I just said that.
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They are crude looking in some ways (at least I thought so when first introduced to 'em). But they fly very nicely, and offer excellent performance, which is what really matters...
 
citizen5000 said:
You keep trying to compare the bubble years and peak of aviation sales with the recession years and now. Cirrus is the best seller relative to the economy and the general state of GA aviation. They were during the bubble too.

Cirrus actually has to limit production of the SR20 and SR22 because they carved out a quarter of their factory to make the SF50. I know, I was there and saw it and discussed that 'nice problem to have' with them.
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The next time you visit a manufacturing plant go as an industrial tourist and not as an impressionable student theologian.
 
kyleb said:
They are crude looking in some ways (at least I thought so when first introduced to 'em). But they fly very nicely, and offer excellent performance, which is what really matters...
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Yeah, I've flown an RV-4 and an RV-7. Excellent handling. I just prefer the looks of composites. Hence the reason why I went with Glasair.

Now, I'd go with Vans over a typical piston production aircraft any day.
 
Mike Smith said:
There is really nothing wrong with the Cirrus, but I swear I have never seen a cult like mentality since Jonestown. For the uninformed, this is an extension of the ****ing contest that erupted in the Icon crash thread which precipitated the All things Cirrus thread. But I do think we needed this Mooney sucks thread.:rolleyes:
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Market leaders have ardent fans. Just like Apple, Tesla, Starbucks.
 
Mike Smith said:
There is really nothing wrong with the Cirrus, but I swear I have never seen a cult like mentality since Jonestown. For the uninformed, this is an extension of the ****ing contest that erupted in the Icon crash thread which precipitated the All things Cirrus thread. But I do think we needed this Mooney sucks thread.:rolleyes:
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I agree. Although I was part of it. However there is few threads on this forum where the uniformed dont find a way to bash cirrus aircraft. I'm not trying to bash mooney. I'm asking why they only sold TWO planes in the first qtr 2017 and only 7 total in 16
 
Yup, the Chinese won't stick around long for an airplane company that doesn't sell airplanes. That said, they did have some certification issues for the Ultra, and perhaps that bit into their sales?
 
this is my shot in the dark to wrap my head around the situation. Mooney make a great plane. CIrrus makes a great plane, too. Cirrus has a chute and a great marketing/PR department. Although I suspect a few buyers may be holding out for the 2 door mooney ultra that recently got certified, Cirrus is killing mooney in sales. More people, including student pilots seem to be familiar with cirrus. IMO it's the reason so many 172s and 182s sold. It's what people were familiar with when they were training. I love my mooney, and I want them to do well. I think the more aircraft companies that remain viable, the better things will be.
 
dennyleeb said:
Cirrus is almost sold out through 2017. They took the approach of lower numbers, higher quality, higher margins over selling 7-800 a year like they were prior to 08. Their model is for selling 300 a year now. Which is exactly what they have sold the last half decade.
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Yeah, but if their model was to sell 3,000 planes per year or 6,000, how would that affect their selling price? Maybe the market just isn't there, or maybe there is a market for for a high quality, reasonably priced new airplane.

I might even buy a new Cirrus if they could drop the price a few hundred thousand. But that will never happen with the "small" number they are making now.
 
Only if you count ones that come in one piece, count the ones that come in multiple boxes and vans beats them hands down. :)
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Yuck, Vans.:( Besides the RV-8A, they're plain Jane looking aircraft. Yep...I just said that.
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A friend calls them "Van-cans." :)

The Vans don't win "hands down," at least compared to Cirrus. At the peak, RVs constituted about 40% of new homebuilts; if I remember right (traveling, don't have access to my data), this has been 25% in recent years. With about 800 to 1000 new EAB added to the US registry each year, this puts the RV totals a bit below Cirrus. Add the foreign sales, and they're probably about equal.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Comfort, features, and company stability are the main reasons I didn't consider a new mooney. Plus I felt that when it comes time for resale, there will be an easier time unloading the cirrus and not as much of a financial hit. Plus they just don't do it for me. But that's just me.

They can turn it around. Won't be easy but they are a classic name. There are so many benefits to buying a new or nearly new cirrus that mooney just can't provide (yet). They're treading water but still selling. And I hope they do well, as a rising tide lifts all boats
 
JOhnH said:
Yeah, but if their model was to sell 3,000 planes per year or 6,000, how would that affect their selling price? Maybe the market just isn't there, or maybe there is a market for for a high quality, reasonably priced new airplane.

I might even buy a new Cirrus if they could drop the price a few hundred thousand. But that will never happen with the "small" number they are making now.
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It would be awesome if that market was there.
 
JOhnH said:
Yeah, but if their model was to sell 3,000 planes per year or 6,000, how would that affect their selling price?
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Cirrus is already at max capacity. Part of their existing factory in Duluth has been carved out to make the SF50 jet. They are currently limiting the number of SR2x planes they make to make room for the the SF50 assembly line. They like to get their sales orders in before a new year production starts and then set the factory runs to meet the orders. The lead time on a new SR2x is 90 days at present. The lead time on an SF50 is much longer. The backorder queue on the SF50 is over 500 planes. And their current run rate is under 100 jets per year with plans to expand that to 200.

The prices for all their planes reflect market demand, competitive pricing and margin targets.

Cirrus has built a new customer and delivery center in TN. Part of Cirrus success is their customer focus. Once you buy a plane from them you are treated like a king and have access to 24/7 hotline support, online and factory training, and often access to the heads of various departments as well as your sales rep when you need it.

Cirrus also has the industrys biggest repeat customer base.
 
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