Is a military pilot authorized to fly civilian general aviation aircraft based on his status as a military pilot? I know that they can pass a military competence written exam to qualify for a commercial license, but if they haven't done that and don't have any FAA certification, can they legally fly civilian aircraft?
Military Pilots flying GA
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Clark1961
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Sure, as long as an FAA certified pilot acting as pilot-in-command is aboard...
hook_dupin
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Yes if in performance of a military mission. Here' it's a "public aircraft," and not a "civil aircraft." Let's say some firm wants to put a new widget on a King Air and test it under contract with the DoD. The test aircraft has an N-number and the government has not accepted ownership. The military can have a military pilot evaluate the aircraft even if she doesn't have civilian ratings. The FAR 1.1 definition for "public aircraft" is fairly broad, actually.
No if it's for recreation or non-government commerce.
BillTIZ
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If they don't have the requisite FAA plastic in their pocket with their name on it, no, unless another appropriate certified pilot is on board to act as PIC.
Most military pilots that do get the equivalency FAA certificate after pilot training may be limited to multi engine centerline thrust if the graduated from the fighter course, (T-38). Then they'll need to take additional check rides to remove the centerline thrust restriction or get single engine rated.
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Velocity173
Can use your up chit (4186) for a class 3. That was a nice perk.
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A military aircraft is a military aircraft, even if it's just a 182. My friend started out in the Air Force flying B-52's, moved on to U-2's, but ended up being CAP corporate and flying 182's.
Public aircraft are NON-military government aircraft like ones owned by NASA or the FAA or certain state agencies (like our state police medevac helos).
roncachamp
Final Approach
That commercial license they receive when they pass a military competence written exam is FAA certification. It's not necessarily a particularly useful certificate though. Back when USAF UPT was done solely in twin engine aircraft, passing the test earned a commercial certificate limited to private pilot privileges with a multiengine land rating limited to centerline thrust.
hook_dupin
Pre-takeoff checklist
There's more to it than that. There can be aircraft that the DoD has leased that meet the definition of public if they're used for development or training. There can be aircraft that are owned by certain agencies that get chopped over for a military mission. I have worked quite a few issues on the DoD side on how to operate in these situations legally in various stateside roles.
There's actually a good bit of AC 00-1.1A dedicated to this:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_00-1_1A.pdf
Read paragraph 11. We had deemed that civil-registered aircraft operated by the DoD used for crew training or system development were public aircraft and therefore FAA certification was not required.
Sluggo63
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I don't understand what you mean by a "commercial certificate limited to private pilot privileges." Back when I graduated UPT (T-37/T-38), after taking the military competency exam, I received a Commercial Multi-engine Land certificate (Limited to Centerline Thrust), and Instrument Airplane. I was able to remove the CL thrust restriction after upgrading to Aircraft Commander in the KC-135, and taking my records to the FSDO.
roncachamp
Final Approach
As best as I can recall that is the phrase that was used when I asked what certificates were obtained via the test. The centerline thrust part made sense to me, but the private pilot limitation definitely did not. When I queried further I was told that's just the way it is.
Fearless Tower
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Maybe they were confusing the requirement for at least a 2nd class medical to exercise the privileges of the commercial certificate?
roncachamp
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Beats me. But I'm pretty sure the flight surgeon wasn't charging them for the medical so there'd be no reason to seek a 3rd class over the 2nd. I'm pretty sure now the guy who told me of the private pilot privileges limitation was wrong.
35 AoA
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Yeah, I'm not aware of any restriction in that sense. Granted I got my comm. ticket prior to joining the service, but when I used military time/equivalency to upgrade to a multi, the only restriction was CL thrust.
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Velocity173
3 hrs of class and a Commercial Rotorcraft-Instrument Helicopter. Not a bad deal. Used TA to get Instrument Airplane.
Gucci Pilot
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The down and dirty, if I don't take the commercial competency test, can I go rent a 172 and go flying by myself? No. I would have to take the competency test. Once someone does that, if they went through recently(meaning they flew the T-6 II during initial training) they get a commercial single, multi(centerline restricted if they fly the 38) and instrument airplane. Those that fly the T-1 don't have the centerline restriction and get a Beechjet type rating. Can use a CURRENT military medical as a 3rd class as long as they are only flying in the U.S. Annual checkride counts as a BFR/IPC as well. Also, if the plane requires a type rating, once you go through initial qual and have ten hours in it, you can get a type rating if it has a civilian equivalent.
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Gucci Pilot
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I suppose the USAF Aero Club airplanes we used to go TDY back in the 60's and 70's were "military" airplanes even if the had FAA N numbers?
Cheers
Did they have 781s associated with them?
I don't remember if was an "official" 781 but we did have a form for write ups. Never had to Red X one that I flew or when a pax.
Cheers
mscard88
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Air Force owns them, as they do CAP airplanes. A couple bases I was at had T41s (C172) and Maxwell had a T-34A for awhile, besides the regular civilian-type planes (152s, 172s, 182s, Cherokees, Skippers, 310s etc). So, owned by the military but not sure they'd be considered military planes. Clear as mud huh. 
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SkyDog58
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Canis Non Grata
You lost me there. Why Part 65?
RotorAndWing
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The airplanes operated by the FAA are not operated as public aircraft. All of the Flightcheck aircraft are operated Part 135 and Part 91, and the aircraft at Alliance (King Airs, Piper Seminoles, Cessna 172's, S-300C's and B206's) are operated Part 91 and maintained under 14 CFR.
hook_dupin
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I suppose the USAF Aero Club airplanes we used to go TDY back in the 60's and 70's were "military" airplanes even if the had FAA N numbers?
Cheers
Nope. These are civil aircraft as recreation and training not directly associated with a military mission are outside the scope of "public aircraft." (Note: there's no legal definition of "military aircraft"... only "civil" and "public"). There have been times that aeroclub aircraft likely could have been considered public aircraft (screening of military pilots, survey of VR routes, low/slow targets for intercept practice, etc), but I have not seen aeroclubs push for that.
EvilEagle
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I suppose the USAF Aero Club airplanes we used to go TDY back in the 60's and 70's were "military" airplanes even if the had FAA N numbers?
Cheers
The only base I've been stationed that had an aero club was Tyndall. They were purely civilian aircraft. I parked my Glasair with them but that was the extent. Talking to the manager, most of the people flying them were either GS employees (civilians) or enlisted folks. I knew a few pilots that used them but it was purely a civilian based flying op (part 91). The one in Alaska is the same FWIU.
Don't know what it was like when they had T-41's, etc.
I had a PPL before pilot training and after my mil competency my license said commercial multi-engine (CL thrust only), Instrument airplane, Private pilot privileges. I never liked that because I actually had my PPL, not just given the privilege after UPT, but that's how it stayed till my ATP...
roncachamp
Final Approach
Hmmm...
EvilEagle
Pattern Altitude
My point was that the PPL priv didn't say anything about CL thrust, only the MEI stuff (which makes sense).
roncachamp
Final Approach
Prior to your input the Private Pilot Privileges limitation had pretty much been written off. Now it's reappeared.
mscard88
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That's odd about Tyndall being only Part 61. I've been in a number of Aero Clubs and they all were Part 141, and Part 61. T-41s were used in the 60s to screen pilots before they moved forward to the T-37. For instance, when I was at Moody in the late 60s, the T-41s were at Valdosta Municipal airport where student pilots flew around 10-15 hours I think. If they were satisfactory then they began Tweet training at Moody. I'm pretty sure all the UPT bases had this arrangement. Later the USAF consolidated all the T-41 ops at Hondo TX for screening.
Sluggo63
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I think we're missing a little bit of important info. I was in the same boat as Eagle, as I had my PPL before going to AF UPT.
After graduating and taking the military comp, my license read:
Commercial Pilot
Airplane Multiengine Land (Limited to Centerline Thrust)
Instrument Airplane
Private Privileges
Airplane Single Engine Land
The Private Privileges were just associated with the ASEL due to the fact that I never demonstrated CP proficiency in a SEL airplane. It has nothing to do with a restriction on the CP part of my license.
For guys/gals that didn't have a PPL before UPT, one of the local flight schools had a deal set up where they would fly for an hour or two of instruction and take a Commercial check ride in a SE airplane, removing the PP restriction from their ticket. I was too lazy to do that, and now I'm kicking myself, I'm an Multiengine ATP with PP privileges on my SEL.
Gucci Pilot
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Ah I see what it is now. They both flew the Tweet(multi-engine jet) then the 38(multi-engine jet). So they never flew a single engine airplane in the military, but they both had a single engine PPL before coming to pilot training. The "private pilot privileges" thing threw me off too.
roncachamp
Final Approach
That seems to explain it all. When I made my query many moons ago no differentiation was made between those who entered UPT with a Private and those without.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Unless they were around years ago when all of them were screened in the T-41 (C-172) before they moved to the 'Dog Whistle (T37) and T38. They only flew the T41 around 12-15 hours I think, so never were rated in it. Strictly for screening before they moved to jets.
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Sluggo63
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Right. I was screened in the T-41. I just checked... 20.6 hours over the course of about 3 months. They basically took you to solo, then you had a mini "checkride." But there wasn't any Form 8 generated (AF "Certificate of Aircrew Qualification") so none of that counted. Then in UPT, T-37s and T-38s. Both of those are considered Centerline Thrust airplanes (no published Vmc) so that's where the restriction comes from for us "old guys."
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Velocity173
mscard88
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But you can pretend to be!
Oh I could do the overhead with the best of them.
Those things were ragged out back then, I'd hate to see what shape they're in now.
EvilEagle
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I went to SUPT in '00 and they still had a program to get some civilian flying for those who didn't have a PPL (40 hours) and a bit of flying for those of us who had a PPL but weren't that current. I hadn't flown in a few years and I got 20 hours I think. Just a local FBO that was paid by the USAF.
The kids going to UPT now go to Pueblo for IFS (Intro Flight Screening) - they fly a cirrus I think. It's not a full PPL though AFAIK.
The kids going to UPT now go to Pueblo for IFS (Intro Flight Screening) - they fly a cirrus I think. It's not a full PPL though AFAIK.
Clark1961
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The intro curriculum is pretty tight, they get something like 23 hours in a DA-20. There are (or were) intro programs at PUB and somewhere in Florida.
Cirri are used at the AFA.
Gucci Pilot
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It's pretty much like the old T-41 program. Fly about 20 hours in a DA-20. Do basic stuff like T/O & Landings, stalls, steep turns, slow flight, S-turns across a road, turns around a point. Do one solo flight and then a checkride. They changed it a couple years ago and those that have a PPL are no longer required to go to IFS.
Gucci Pilot
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The other folks in my class with no flight experience said IFS was rough. For us with flight experience(when I went through, everyone had to go, even if you were a CFI) it was a cakewalk. There are quite a few programs around the country. Two that I have found are Accessible Aviation in MS and Premier Flight Academy in Cleveland. Only problem is the DA-20s at IFS have the instruments on the right side and the student flies from the right seat(so the throttle can be on the left like in the T-6 and fighters). Yeah it's right seat vs. left seat but as long as someone can get to where they can safely land the plane before IFS, they will conquer one of the biggest reasons people washed out when I was there.