Mid air collision reported at T31

Jimmy cooper said:
I've owned five aircraft without electrical systems since I went light sport from ppl in 2000. Hand held radios are very good today and were in 2000. They have excellent range and easy to use especially if one hooks them up to an external antenna. There is no excuse for any aircraft, glider, etc. not to have one today if they do not have an electrical system. Anyone who thinks just looking around trying to spot another aircraft in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport is kidding themselves. In addition, I've never, in fifty years of flying, heard anyone "babble" on the radio in or near the pattern. Very difficult to see through the bottom of an airplane which is probably how this accident occurred if you read FAA reports of mid airs near airports.
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Since you're quoting me, I'll respond. I agree that everyone should have a radio. I'll also say not everyone does and whether you and I think they should or not, there's no requirement so you still have to look for them. There's a Cub at our airport with no radio and they instruct in it. Even if everyone had radios and used them, you still have the possibility they'll be broadcasting on the wrong frequency. When flying from our nearby towered airport, you'll routinely hear someone call one of the non-towered frequencies and the tower has to tell them they're on the wrong freq. Anyone who thinks everyone is on the radio and they're not looking around is asking for trouble.

I also agree with others that replied to you. If you've been flying 50 years and never heard anyone babble on the radio, you must be in a very unpopulated area. I hear it almost every time I fly. Someone makes a call, then someone asks, "Hey Jerry, is that you?" Then it becomes a challenge trying to squeeze your radio call in.

Everyone talking about ADS-B should remember it's only required where a transponder is, so in this case at an airport under Class B it would be required for everyone except airplanes with no electrical. You still won't catch everyone.
 
Cykoguy said:
I guess I am thinking of an add on to an ADS-B box that would give audible alerts. I think we are all on the same page that the pattern is not the time to have your head down staring at a screen looking for traffic.
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I thought there was NO TIME in the cockpit to be head down and not looking outside for very long? (Actual IMC is the obvious exception.) I've had opposite direction traffic pass close enough I had to put my head against the side window to keep from losing them under the cowl, and probably 500' below me. ATC kindly gave me a heads up almost a full minute after they passed by. It was a white Mooney with a red tail. I was flying VFR direct with Flight Following . . .
 
Lowflynjack said:
Since you're quoting me, I'll respond. I agree that everyone should have a radio. I'll also say not everyone does and whether you and I think they should or not, there's no requirement so you still have to look for them. There's a Cub at our airport with no radio and they instruct in it. Even if everyone had radios and used them, you still have the possibility they'll be broadcasting on the wrong frequency. When flying from our nearby towered airport, you'll routinely hear someone call one of the non-towered frequencies and the tower has to tell them they're on the wrong freq. Anyone who thinks everyone is on the radio and they're not looking around is asking for trouble. The majority of my flying has been done at smaller airports near buffalo or Baltimore. Hardly low population areas.

I also agree with others that replied to you. If you've been flying 50 years and never heard anyone babble on the radio, you must be in a very unpopulated area. I hear it almost every time I fly. Someone makes a call, then someone asks, "Hey Jerry, is that you?" Then it becomes a challenge trying to squeeze your radio call in.

Everyone talking about ADS-B should remember it's only required where a transponder is, so in this case at an airport under Class B it would be required for everyone except airplanes with no electrical. You still won't catch everyone.
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Anyone who would instruct in a cub on a daily basis without a working radio is an idiot. Not to mention that they should be instructing in the proper use of the radio during this time. I've rarely heard pilots misuse the regular Unicoms and when it happened ,it was obviously someone with low time, a student, etc. which I overlooked. No, you won't catch everyone but a radio is a necessity today due to people ignoring the traffic pattern approach , flying an airliner straight in approach in a 172 , overflying the runway too low , on and on. This current accident sounds like there was no communication going on. This happened not long ago when a bonanza , on a straight in ran over a smaller aircraft on final , having a CFI on board, with no communication. I attribute a lot of this to poor training, often due to the CFI not having many more hours than the student they are teaching. Simply building time to move on.the majority of my 4000 hours has been done near Baltimore or near buffalo, hardly low population areas
 
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Lowflynjack said:
Your opinion, but if you don't keep an eye out for that idiot, you're the idiot. Whether you think it's a good idea or not, it's legal and it happens.
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Simply looking around doesn't cut it alone. It takes constant awareness of what's outside, looking and at the same time announcing your location, entering the pattern, downwind, base and final. I never stated that the radio alone was enough. At one smaller airport I fly into, if you don't have a working radio and use it, you are told to either get one or don't come back. Every airplane based there has to have one and use it.it seems like common sense to me but common sense oftentimes is not present here.
 
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Jimmy cooper said:
Anyone who would instruct in a cub on a daily basis without a working radio is an idiot. Not to mention that they should be instructing in the proper use of the radio during this time. I've rarely heard pilots misuse the regular Unicoms and when it happened ,it was obviously someone with low time, a student, etc. which I overlooked. No, you won't catch everyone but a radio is a necessity today due to people ignoring the traffic pattern approach , flying an airliner straight in approach in a 172 , overflying the runway too low , on and on. This current accident sounds like there was no communication going on. This happened not long ago when a bonanza , on a straight in ran over a smaller aircraft on final , having a CFI on board, with no communication. I attribute a lot of this to poor training, often due to the CFI not having many more hours than the student they are teaching. Simply building time to move on.the majority of my 4000 hours has been done near Baltimore or near buffalo, hardly low population areas
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This isn't a new occurrence. Been flying 40+ year, over 25K hours and it was happening back then, with more planes flying too. I taught students in a Cub (their plane) and a C152, so I guess I'm just half an idiot? Is that how this works?
 
You just gotta love the purists. If you don't do it they way they think you should, then you're obviously an idiot. :rolleyes2:
 
A trophy taylorcraft I sold not too long ago was in a midair, in the pattern , at a small airport near buffalo in the 70s. No radios. The t craft made it to the ground, the cub crashed killing the pilot. The fellow I bought it from, the t craft, had been stored for years, rebuilt, recovered and had an external antenna, a holder for the radio on the right side of the panel and it worked very well, even at a distance of twenty miles or so. I also had a handheld in my stearman which worked well. The 140s I had , were transceivers as was the luscombe F model, as did both mooneys. I always use the radio when flying. Common sense.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Simply looking around doesn't cut it alone. It takes constant awareness of what's outside, looking and at the same time announcing your location, entering the pattern, downwind, base and final. I never stated that the radio alone was enough. At one smaller airport I fly into, if you don't have a working radio and use it, you are told to either get one or don't come back. Every airplane based there has to have one and use it.it seems like common sense to me but common sense oftentimes is not present here.
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I agree with you! It's not that common sense isn't always present here, it's that it's not always present anywhere. Whether or not we think it's a good idea, there will be those who don't use radios and there's nothing we can do about it.

The airport you mention telling people to either get a radio or don't come back must be private or they haven't taken federal funding. Otherwise, they're making rules they can't enforce and you can lose federal funding.

Then again there's Blakesburg (private field) where I fly every year. I think they average 500 planes and they ask that nobody use radios since there are a lot of old planes without them. Just keep your eyes open and land when you see a green flag, go around when you see a red one. No accidents since they've been doing it this way, starting in the 70's.
 
Cykoguy said:
I guess I am thinking of an add on to an ADS-B box that would give audible alerts. I think we are all on the same page that the pattern is not the time to have your head down staring at a screen looking for traffic.
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Already available from L3 on their Lynx.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Yeah, but I remember when that area was pretty bare. The airport WAS there first. The area is being built up pretty rapidly and we are flying over construction sites nearby every other week.
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As Ryan says, the area was all farmland until a few years ago. I have been playing golf at the course visible off the south end of the runway for about a decade and have watched the encroachment of development.

It's all suburbia now.
 
It was bare around DFW when it was built too. Now look at it. See, ya build an airport and they will come!
 
mscard88 said:
It was bare around DFW when it was built too. Now look at it. See, ya build an airport and they will come!
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They are now building a fancy subdivision on the farmland around the north and west sides of the regional airport I fly out of. The prevailing winds here are northwesterly. The subdivision is called "Harmony". Ya, right...:rolleyes:
 
mscard88 said:
Doubt it's cheap land. There's some million dolla + subdivisions around the airport.
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But it was cheap for the developer to buy the whole tract. That maximizes his profit! Never mind that the home buyers are too dimwitted to notice that they are under the departure path from the airport . . . That's not his problem after he gets their money.
 
Dav8or said:
I'm not sure audible alerts will do you a lot of good in the pattern because I don't think the resolution is that good. The system would likely just go off for every plane in the pattern. I'm also not sure if most ADS-B can see all the way down to pattern altitude. Maybe folks that have it can let us know.
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It would be something like TIS, which SUCKS. As you suspect, it shrieks about every airplane in the pattern.
 
Hank S said:
But it was cheap for the developer to buy the whole tract. That maximizes his profit! Never mind that the home buyers are too dimwitted to notice that they are under the departure path from the airport . . . That's not his problem after he gets their money.
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Is there something wrong with operating a business for profit, and doing so in a manner which efficiencies of scale optimize?

Wouldn't you agree it's up to the purchaser of the home to investigate any issues which would negatively affect the home's future value?
 
3393RP said:
Is there something wrong with operating a business for profit, and doing so in a manner which efficiencies of scale optimize?

Wouldn't you agree it's up to the purchaser of the home to investigate any issues which would negatively affect the home's future value?
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Nothing. How else do you afford a private plane that you can fly to airports that will soon in time, be closed by the land you sold?
 
MAKG1 said:
It would be something like TIS, which SUCKS. As you suspect, it shrieks about every airplane in the pattern.
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It can display traffic in the pattern and you can set the range of the display, but will only alert with potential conflicts. I have had a GDL 88 with a GTN 650 for a couple of years and I do not get nuisance alerts.
 
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teejayevans said:
It doesn't mention a separate pattern altitude for turbo props and only fuel is avgas, so you are probably pretty safe.
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Even if there is no specific tp/jet altitude listed the norm is 500above the published. No jet fuel sales on field isn't a clue either. I've flown to plenty of airports that don't sale jet fuel in aircraft that use jet a.
 
Cavorter said:
I heard there was a video that has not been released.
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I just watched video from a police car dash cam. The cop car was northbound on Custer Rd and the planes are in the top half of the video. One plane appears to be southbound on a right downwind for 35. The other plane is flying east to west approaching the airport environment. The E/W plane strikes the tail of the plane on downwind, taking the tail off. The downwind plane spins directly into the roadway. The E/W plane continues west, obviously with little control input and losing altitude fast, out of frame. The police car continues up Custer to the crash scene. Pretty brutal video.
 
Obviously a tragic event.

I've always overflown non-towered airports 500' above the pattern before going wide and descending so as to enter midfield downwind at about a 45° angle.

I understand that there may be turbojets in the pattern at that altitude, and there exists a risk of conflict with them. But in my experience at the non-towered airports I frequent, that has virtually never been an issue - I literally cannot recall a turbojet maneuvering at that altitude and being a factor - they seem to almost always seem to be coming straight in and/or flying an instrument procedure.

Of course, I'll stay vigilant, but just don't see that as a strong argument against the overflight at TPA +500'.
 
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JCranford said:
I just watched video from a police car dash cam. The cop car was northbound on Custer Rd and the planes are in the top half of the video. One plane appears to be southbound on a right downwind for 35. The other plane is flying east to west approaching the airport environment. The E/W plane strikes the tail of the plane on downwind, taking the tail off. The downwind plane spins directly into the roadway. The E/W plane continues west, obviously with little control input and losing altitude fast, out of frame. The police car continues up Custer to the crash scene. Pretty brutal video.
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Right downwind? Isn't that field left-hand traffic?
 
tawood said:
Right downwind? Isn't that field left-hand traffic?
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Nothing in the chart or supplement to indicate right patterns. But possible the plane was not actually on a downwind leg, just passing by. There used to be an acrobatics box right there, but I don't know if there still is.
 
Ive landed there several time and have used both patterns,

The acro box is well north
 
A plane is right on your nose, same altitude, and you take the tail off? Right or left pattern, no excuse. If this is what occurred.
 
mscard88 said:
A plane is right on your nose, same altitude, and you take the tail off? Right or left pattern, no excuse. If this is what occurred.
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Agree, but I can see how it would cause some issues. If he thought the plane was on a left downwind and he's on a right downwind, he would expect him to be quite a bit further away from him. At the time of this accident, the sun would have been in his eyes.

I will catch some hell here, but I tend to cross mid-field at my airport. We have a 17-35 runway, and both patterns are on the West of the field. I was coming in from the East a couple of days ago and I called 10 miles out, 5 miles out will be crossing mid-field for right downwind, then when I got to 3 miles out, and RV decided to make his first call... 3 to the East. I quickly responded that I was 3 to the ENE and didn't have him in sight. He immediately responds that he's on Downwind now. I asked, "You're now on Downwind West of the field?" He said yes. Then he said he was on Left Downwind for 17. I about had a heart attack thinking I'm still on the East side of the runway, about where he would be if he was on Left Downwind. Then he called Base to Final and I saw him turning from Right Downwind to Final, which is where he should have been. I think it came down to him mistakenly calling East of the field when he was West, then calling Left Downwind when he was on Right Downwind. I would have turned away from the field as soon as there was any confusion, but I wasn't sure exactly where he was and didn't want to turn into him.
 
Jack,

Situations like that are exactly why I like to overfly above the TPA - it let's me look down and observe whatever circus is going on with non-standard patterns or straight-ins or bad position reports or NORDO's or whatever.

I personally find it easier to spot traffic from above as opposed to the same altitude.

My way is certainly not the only way, but it works for me!
 
FastEddieB said:
[...] I've always overflown non-towered airports 500' above the pattern before going wide and descending so as to enter midfield downwind at about a 45° angle. [...]
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I also used to overfly airports midfield at 500' above pattern altitude and would then decent in a teardrop to pattern altitude and join the downwind in a 45° angle.
A while ago, an older and very experienced CFI however insisted that I have to cross the airport already at pattern altitude and directly join the downwind coming from the runway side of the pattern. I guess this is what some people call a midfield base.
His argument was, that if all planes in the airport environment are at the same altitude, it is a lot easier for everybody to see each other. It would also minimize the risk that I might possibly decent into another plane.
I thought this makes sense, and started to follow his advice. This accident however makes me wonder, if this is really the right thing to do!? :(
 
German guy said:
I also used to overfly airports midfield at 500' above pattern altitude and would then decent in a teardrop to pattern altitude and join the downwind in a 45° angle.
A while ago, an older and very experienced CFI however insisted that I have to cross the airport already at pattern altitude and directly join the downwind coming from the runway side of the pattern. I guess this is what some people call a midfield base.
His argument was, that if all planes in the airport environment are at the same altitude, it is a lot easier for everybody to see each other. It would also minimize the risk that I might possibly decent into another plane.
I thought this makes sense, and started to follow his advice. This accident however makes me wonder, if this is really the right thing to do!? :(
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I think each has advantages and disadvantages. I admit that I've done both. I personally find it easier to spot planes above me silhouetted against the sky, and find it difficult if not impossible to spot aircraft below me. At my same altitude is still difficult but not as hard.
Also, one thing I swear I see (or I should say "hear") nearly every time I fly is people self announcing their positions wrong. My daughter and I just got back from a long cross country, and NUMEROUS times I heard aircraft call out that they were "10 miles southwest over [blank] inbound" where [blank] is actually 10 miles northeast, etc. Gotta keep that head on a swivel.
 
I make midfield entries above pattern altitude and based on traffic will either turn into the downwind or as a previous person posted do a descending teardrop back to the down wind. It really is driven by traffic. This time of year there is none, beach season on the other hand gets crazy busy and we have a jump operation full time too. Head on a swivel was pounded into my brain since I first started flying.
 
Lowflynjack said:
Agree, but I can see how it would cause some issues. If he thought the plane was on a left downwind and he's on a right downwind, he would expect him to be quite a bit further away from him. At the time of this accident, the sun would have been in his eyes.
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Good point Jack. He would have had the sun in his face flying E to W like you said. Probably a factor.

I always taught the 500' overfly to a descending teardrop once outside of the TP and then enter 45 to downwind. This is what is recommended but as others have said, others ways to fly it also. Gotta have those eyes outside and head on a swivel around the TP
 
I don't tend to overfly airports (unless I need to view the sock or segmented circle or something). These days given the plethora of radios and weather sources (and good airport database directories), that's rare. I don't cross midfield. If I' approaching from the "wrong" side I usually swing around the departure end and enter on a downwind or 45 while staying at pattern altitude all the while. People climbing out usually clear the pattern altitude pretty quickly.

I used to be the overfly and teardrop down into a 45 entry, but there's likely others coming in on the 45 and turning-and-descending isn't exactly condusive to looking for other people coming into the same course.

Yeah, I know midfield crossing entries are the standard in alot of the UK-oriented countries (including Canada). I used them regularly in Australia, but they're not exactly an expected manouver here.
 
I guess that's better than shooting the 10 mile final....while announcing "Any traffic in the pattern please advise"...
 
there have been so many threads on pattern entry, crossing midfield, nordo, etc.., that I'm glad we're hashing it out again here.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I will catch some hell here, but I tend to cross mid-field at my airport.
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Yes at risk of beating a dead horse more-I always cross mid-field as well.

This habit actually started on my PPL checkride. I just finished and passed my maneuvers and the DPE told me to enter the pattern for touch and goes. To setup for standard left downwind entry I climbed to 2000ft (pattern altitude 1000 ft) and planned to make a slow right turn after the exiting the airport enviroment to line me up on the 45 for the left downwind. The DPE said "You could do it that way, and it isn't wrong, but the AIM states that a midfield crosswind entry is ok and will make for a much quicker pattern entry." I proceeded to enter the pattern that way and everything worked fine.

Since then I have always used it when I'm getting to the airport on the wrong side of the pattern and has always worked for me. I find seeing traffic on the downwind pretty easy when crossing over then. I feel like if it is good for a DPE who has thousands and thousands of hours at this uncontrolled field it is good enough for me.


Just my 2 cents.
 
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