Mid air collision reported at T31

Lowflynjack said:
You think he sounded too frantic for a 13 year-old who just saw two planes collide overhead? I think he handled it pretty well. Not every day you see something like this luckily.
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Jack, it's James. You now, the tough one on here. No compassion, nice.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I suggested that here once after twice being cutoff by pilots entering on a mid-field x-wind and was significantly chastised for it.
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I never thought too much about over the top entries, in particular because it's so common at my home field, E98. We have a solitary hill that is used by most pilots to locate the airport. So almost everyone aims for the hill and (sometimes) report "White/green Cherokee, over Tome, for left downwind for 36". But yeah... Visibility to the right is terrible in Cherokies & Arrows, Mooneys, and maybe Bonanzas.
 
Lowflynjack said:
Turns out it wasn't the plane or pilot I thought it was. I was surprised to find another silver/red Luscombe was based at the same airport. It was a father and son that were killed in the Luscombe, so very sad for one family.
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The father and son were Air Force Academy cadet and retired AF pilot father, according to our local paper

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At Stead, Nevada (KRTS) a mid-field x-wind entry is common when coming from the south (Reno). It sounds just like the set-up that led to this accident.

The common runway at KRTS is 8/26 and you cross perpendicular at mid-field and turn either right or left. This has always felt better than an overhead because there is an aerobatic box over the field and if you are safely above the pattern, you are in or very close to the box. Perhaps when coming from the south it would be better to enter on the actual x-wind segment rather than mid-field.
 
DesertNomad said:
At Stead, Nevada (KRTS) a mid-field x-wind entry is common when coming from the south (Reno). It sounds just like the set-up that led to this accident.

The common runway at KRTS is 8/26 and you cross perpendicular at mid-field and turn either right or left. This has always felt better than an overhead because there is an aerobatic box over the field and if you are safely above the pattern, you are in or very close to the box. Perhaps when coming from the south it would be better to enter on the actual x-wind segment rather than mid-field.
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But aren't you suppose to cross at 1500' then do a 270° descending turn, at least that's what I would do?
 
teejayevans said:
But aren't you suppose to cross at 1500' then do a 270° descending turn, at least that's what I would do?
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I have never seen anyone do that at Stead. Perhaps because of the aerobatic box that always seems to be active or just because of local custom. Not sure. It makes me think though. I have done this mid-field x-wind entry dozens... maybe even 100 times. I am used to looking at the downwind and when on downwind myself, am always looking for a mid-field entry by someone else.
 
I've used the midfield crosswind many times in the past, however I have modified it so as to cross more toward the departure end. I'm reluctant to do a crosswind leg because of departing aircraft. Since there are few aircraft that could be at pattern altitude by the end of the runway it seemed a better place to be rather than midfield or beyond the departure end, and I really don't like the almost blind 270 turn in a Skyhawk. There are pros and cons to each, but none are foolproof. The "fool" being the guy who comes barreling into the area NORDO on some obscure entry. The important thing is to stay on your toes and not only expect but know that fool will be there every time.
 
mscard88 said:
Jack, it's James. You now, the tough one on here. No compassion, nice.
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True! I guess we're now judging everyone, including 13 year-old kids who watch planes collide and probably know they just saw people die.
 
The Luscombe my friend sold is based at the same airport as the one that crashed. Aero Country is under Class B, inside the Mode C Veil. This plane had no electrical system. According to regulations, if a plane never had an electrical system, you're not required to have a transponder in controlled airspace. Communication was with a handheld radio that didn't broadcast very far and didn't receive from very far away, so you had limitations. We could talk air-to-air when flying, but for some reason when we got close we couldn't hear each other. That was interesting when we'd get close to an airport and it was a big factor in my friend selling the plane.

With ADS-B becoming more and more prominent, we should all remember that whether you think it's wise or not, there can be planes out there with no transponder or ADS-B in areas you would expect them to have it.

To be clear, I'm not saying that had anything to do with this accident. I have no idea how the Luscombe that crashed is equipped. These are just things I was thinking of when I thought it was the same plane we used to fly.

It also crossed my mind that two of my friends are based there in their 140s. We give one of them a lot of grief over the fact that his 140 looks like a 737 on final because he installed really bright LED landing lights after he almost had a mid-air collision. Maybe he had the right idea.
 
Lowflynjack said:
We give one of them a lot of grief over the fact that his 140 looks like a 737 on final because he installed really bright LED landing lights after he almost had a mid-air collision. Maybe he had the right idea.
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Yep, a great idea... I don't mean to be a Monday morning quarterback, but the pics show the collision happened at dusk; sunset at 1730, accident occurred at 1730-ish. The Luscombe was silver and red/maroon. Looking at pics of other 8As, seems like they have nav lights but no strobes or beacon lights; if this Luscombe had similar lighting, then I'd say that it was pretty much invisible to the Arrow pilot as he approached from the west and the Luscombe just blended into the background...

I'm not saying his is how it happened or I'm blaming either pilot, but I can kinda see how it might have happened. If I were flying a C-140 or a Luscombe with an electric system, I'd prefer to have some bright freakin lights on that thing...
 
I flew into TKI a little over a year ago. I remember thinking it was like flying into a bee hive compared to my relatively sleepy home drone in northeast Arkansas.

As for the visibility issue. It's one of the main reasons I switched out my landing and wing tip lights to LED. With such little amp draw they just stay on all the time. Wing tips are on solid for TO / landing (final) and are flipped to alternating flash in all other phases of flight. I literally haven't turned the nose landing light off in over a year. In low light conditions, I too, have been compared to a 737 on final.
 
Lowflynjack said:
The Luscombe my friend sold is based at the same airport as the one that crashed. Aero Country is under Class B, inside the Mode C Veil. This plane had no electrical system. According to regulations, if a plane never had an electrical system, you're not required to have a transponder in controlled airspace. Communication was with a handheld radio that didn't broadcast very far and didn't receive from very far away, so you had limitations. We could talk air-to-air when flying, but for some reason when we got close we couldn't hear each other. That was interesting when we'd get close to an airport and it was a big factor in my friend selling the plane.

With ADS-B becoming more and more prominent, we should all remember that whether you think it's wise or not, there can be planes out there with no transponder or ADS-B in areas you would expect them to have it.

To be clear, I'm not saying that had anything to do with this accident. I have no idea how the Luscombe that crashed is equipped. These are just things I was thinking of when I thought it was the same plane we used to fly.

It also crossed my mind that two of my friends are based there in their 140s. We give one of them a lot of grief over the fact that his 140 looks like a 737 on final because he installed really bright LED landing lights after he almost had a mid-air collision. Maybe he had the right idea.
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I've owned five aircraft without electrical systems since I went light sport from ppl in 2000. Hand held radios are very good today and were in 2000. They have excellent range and easy to use especially if one hooks them up to an external antenna. There is no excuse for any aircraft, glider, etc. not to have one today if they do not have an electrical system. Anyone who thinks just looking around trying to spot another aircraft in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport is kidding themselves. In addition, I've never, in fifty years of flying, heard anyone "babble" on the radio in or near the pattern. Very difficult to see through the bottom of an airplane which is probably how this accident occurred if you read FAA reports of mid airs near airports.
 
N1347B said:
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/search?q=McKinney+&m=1


"Fox 4 spoke with Larry Ferracioli and his daughter, Natalie. They were playing volleyball in their front yard when they say they saw the two planes taking off together from the two Aero Country runways. Larry says the planes were banking a left turn when one of the aircraft slammed into the other. One of the planes fell straight down into the street. The other crashed at the storage unit facility, which sparked a small fire.

"Two planes were right on top of each other when they came out of the bank, starting to level out right above, just past our house,” said Ferracioli, “The outside plane just came in and collided with the inside plane. When the collision happened, it sounded like an automobile accident head on.""


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Well, there's only one runway at Aerocountry, so I'd take the rest of their observations with a grain of salt.
 
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Lindberg said:
Well, there's only one runway at Aerocountry, so I'd take the rest of their observations 20th a grain of salt.
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If you read all the witness accounts it is amazing to see how much they contradict each other. One eyewitness said the one that landed on the storage facility "exploded on impact" with the other plane. Another said it flew for a while. Some say the accident happened on take off. Others say on landing.

I wouldn't tie any deductions to any one eyewitness account.

I heard there was a video that has not been released. That is probably going to be the only reliable source of information.
 
Accidents like this make me think the next "thing" in GA will be a TCAS type system.
 
Anymouse said:
Have you heard about ADS-B??
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I guess I am thinking of an add on to an ADS-B box that would give audible alerts. I think we are all on the same page that the pattern is not the time to have your head down staring at a screen looking for traffic.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
In addition, I've never, in fifty years of flying, heard anyone "babble" on the radio in or near the pattern.
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Wow. People are very good where you are, or you just don't fly that much. I've only been flying 18 years and i've heard it many, many times in the TPA. You know, saying hi to each other, asking about what they're up to, asking about somebody else they both know, asking about the airplane they're flying, asking about plans later on, stuff like that. I wouldn't call it common, but I wouldn't call it rare either.
 
Dav8or said:
Wow. People are very good where you are, or you just don't fly that much. I've only been flying 18 years and i've heard it many, many times in the TPA. You know, saying hi to each other, asking about what they're up to, asking about somebody else they both know, asking about the airplane they're flying, asking about plans later on, stuff like that. I wouldn't call it common, but I wouldn't call it rare either.
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:yeahthat: :mad3:
 
Cykoguy said:
I guess I am thinking of an add on to an ADS-B box that would give audible alerts. I think we are all on the same page that the pattern is not the time to have your head down staring at a screen looking for traffic.
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We're on the same page with the audible alerts too. Once you have ADS-B, it ain't nothin' but a bunch of software.
 
Cykoguy said:
I guess I am thinking of an add on to an ADS-B box that would give audible alerts. I think we are all on the same page that the pattern is not the time to have your head down staring at a screen looking for traffic.
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I'm not sure audible alerts will do you a lot of good in the pattern because I don't think the resolution is that good. The system would likely just go off for every plane in the pattern. I'm also not sure if most ADS-B can see all the way down to pattern altitude. Maybe folks that have it can let us know.
 
Dav8or said:
Wow. People are very good where you are, or you just don't fly that much. I've only been flying 18 years and i've heard it many, many times in the TPA. You know, saying hi to each other, asking about what they're up to, asking about somebody else they both know, asking about the airplane they're flying, asking about plans later on, stuff like that. I wouldn't call it common, but I wouldn't call it rare either.
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Definitely this! Been flying over 40 years and have heard bs on ATC frequencies!
 
Dav8or said:
I'm not sure audible alerts will do you a lot of good in the pattern because I don't think the resolution is that good. The system would likely just go off for every plane in the pattern. I'm also not sure if most ADS-B can see all the way down to pattern altitude. Maybe folks that have it can let us know.
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Not disagreeing that it has its faults and holes. Everything does. I just think that we have the technology available, why not try to implement and refine it.
 
Keep in mind that my only experience with ADS-B so far is the Capstone Program up in Alaska. The ADS-B traffic resolution was MUCH better on ADS-B than it was with TCAS. Also, at least with Capstone, the two (or more) aircraft would talk to each other as opposed to going through a ground station (IIRC).

With TCAS, I haven't had any major issues with audible alerts in the pattern. Again, my flying experience may be different from everyone else. Bottom line, it ain't nothin' but a bunch of software.
 
DesertNomad said:
Perhaps when coming from the south it would be better to enter on the actual x-wind segment rather than mid-field.
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How about an upwind join?
Airport_Traffic_Pattern_with_Upwind_Leg.svg
 
Cykoguy said:
I guess I am thinking of an add on to an ADS-B box that would give audible alerts. I think we are all on the same page that the pattern is not the time to have your head down staring at a screen looking for traffic.
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alot of us already have them. my EFIS system has audio alerts for traffic tied to the adsb.

bob
 
Cykoguy said:
Accidents like this make me think the next "thing" in GA will be a TCAS type system.
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Anymouse said:
Have you heard about ADS-B??
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I thought ADS-B only tells you that there's another plane out there while TCAS tells each plane how to avoid each other (i.e. "Plane A, climb NOW. Plane B, descend NOW")
 
Dav8or said:
I'm not sure audible alerts will do you a lot of good in the pattern because I don't think the resolution is that good. The system would likely just go off for every plane in the pattern. I'm also not sure if most ADS-B can see all the way down to pattern altitude. Maybe folks that have it can let us know.
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I have used ADSB "in" for the better part of a year now, it is quite amazing, traffic shows up that I never would have spotted with eyes alone. Traffic on a collision course shows up red, otherwise green. At least some traffic in the pattern does indicate, altitude notwithstanding. But I can never see it being useful in a pattern, too busy.
 
Here's a look at the location.

15800371_10211845055188013_3580380703435766144_o.jpg


Close up of the accident area.

15800641_10211845055988033_3719432108348778250_o.jpg


East of Aero Country looking West. Collision site is SE of the field in the bottom left of the picture.
 
Wow..... Looking at the pictures, tragedy as it is, it could have been a whole lot worse
 
Zeldman said:
Wow..... Looking at the pictures, tragedy as it is, it could have been a whole lot worse
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Yeah, but I remember when that area was pretty bare. The airport WAS there first. The area is being built up pretty rapidly and we are flying over construction sites nearby every other week.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Yeah, but I remember when that area was pretty bare. The airport WAS there first. The area is being built up pretty rapidly and we are flying over construction sites nearby every other week.
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No argument there. I grew up in B/CS and it was a dinky little farm town then, with a small agriculture and mechanical college next door.
 
Dav8or said:
I'm not sure audible alerts will do you a lot of good in the pattern because I don't think the resolution is that good. The system would likely just go off for every plane in the pattern. I'm also not sure if most ADS-B can see all the way down to pattern altitude. Maybe folks that have it can let us know.
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I have coverage at TPA. Usually have it about 500' AGL or so. Also other aircraft with ADS-B out are picked up down to the ground since it is plane-to-plane. Although I pick up other planes in the pattern, they do not typically alert. When I do get an alert, the other plane is close enough to be a concern, so really not an issue with false alarms. It will not tell you what to do like TCAS but it will alert you to a potential threat. It is an excellent tool in the pattern. You still need eyeballs outside but the ads-b "sees" traffic before I do.
 
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