Mid-Air at Winter Haven

[Flying Keys]

which I JUST learned about in a similar discussion in a different forum after flying over that area for 40 years

It’s a little crazy that there isn’t a common resource of charts and frequencies for these areas. Often times it’s not used by the little unattended airport that I’m flying into (that’s closest to the practice area), but a bigger airport with a flight school 40 miles away.

 

[francisco collazos]

I see home made ADS-B receivers for sale on Amazon all the time. How hard would it be to make a portable ADS-b out transmitter?

 

[Flying Keys]

I see home made ADS-B receivers for sale on Amazon all the time. How hard would it be to make a portable ADS-b out transmitter?

My guess is it lies within registering and certifying versus anonymizing. False data would be problematic as well as the possibility for those wishing to use it for nefarious purposes, like spoofing the ATC system.

 

[flyingron]

It remains to be seen that the Warrior pilot had FIS-B available and if they did would they even have noticed the conflict. There's lots of noise on FIS around airports and a plane climbing up from a lake might not have even occurred to them.

 

[Dana]

I see home made ADS-B receivers for sale on Amazon all the time. How hard would it be to make a portable ADS-b out transmitter?

Receivers are easy. As soon as you have a transmitter, it needs to be FCC approved, and the system also needs to be FAA approved and verified that it's sending the correct data (transponder check, pitot/static check, etc.)

 

[Spinka]

I agree that there needs to be an affordable, battery powered ads-b out transponder that can easily be used in nordo aircraft.

There already is one from uavionix, but the ADS-B out function has only approved for use in the UK and Australia so far.
https://uavionix.com/products/skyecho/

 

[Ed Haywood]

Receivers are easy. As soon as you have a transmitter, it needs to be FCC approved, and the system also needs to be FAA approved and verified that it's sending the correct data (transponder check, pitot/static check, etc.)

Transmitters also draw more power, which would be a limitation on battery powered portables.

 

[hindsight2020]

....the collision, according to ADSB data, occurred circa 900MSL. That's 100 feet from the pre-established AFD-published pattern altitude for KGIF! I go put a T-38 at that altitude and pink mist people out of this planet because "it's my right to cut through Echo" in the conduct of my training, and I'd be posting this from Leavenworth while exchanging involuntary sexual favors for yard protection and loose cigarettes. Looney toons to whatabout the warrior crew here, nevermind this equipment mandate non-sequitur.

 

[Murph]

it needs to be FCC approved, and the system also needs to be FAA approved and verified that it's sending the correct data (transponder check, pitot/static check, etc.)

I wonder if GPS will one day overrule on board pitot/static testing

 

[Bell206]

FYI: people tend to forget the primary purpose of ADSB was to create an expanded accurate ATC system to areas not covered by conventional radar coverage. The ability for other aircraft to "see" each other with ADSB was merely a by-product of that technology like TAS was/is. Even when the 1st operational ADSB tests were performed in the 90s it was never intended as a stand-alone collision avoidance system. That is what the pilot is there for. Unfortunately, mid-airs happen regardless what equipment is installed in the aircraft. It is what it is and there is data behind it.

 

[Half Fast]

Some things never change....

Circa 1947:

​

And guys flying 1940s aircraft are still fighting against radios.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

There will always be CFIs who turn off the radios in the pattern because all the calls interfere with their student instruction.

Wow! I have turned down the volume in the practice area to help communicate with my student, but it is always back up on the way back to the home 'drome. Turn it OFF in the pattern? No way.

 

[RyanShort1]

And guys flying 1940s aircraft are still fighting against radios.

Not radios, weight in general. The struggle is real, especially for older pilots. Many older planes are being flown right up to their max gross regularly.

 

[wanttaja]

Wow! I have turned down the volume in the practice area to help communicate with my student, but it is always back up on the way back to the home 'drome. Turn it OFF in the pattern? No way.

This isn't just a friend-of-a-friend type rumor.

I was the president of my home airport's advisory board when it came out that training helicopters were flying in from Boeing Field to train at our airport, and turning off their radios to minimize distraction of the students.

We sent them a polite letter asking them to stop the practice. Their response is that the FAA didn't *require* use of the radios, and they were going to continue their NORDO operations.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Half Fast]

Not radios, weight in general. The struggle is real, especially for older pilots. Many older planes are being flown right up to their max gross regularly.

Well, a Yaesu FTA-250 weighs 10.6 oz. Maybe a pilot could go on a massive diet to make up the difference?

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

It's true that the FAA doesn't require the use of radios, and it's also true that helicopters use different traffic patterns described in an advisory circular. But it is my opinion that turning off the radios is pretty risky, especially during training.

 

[bflynn]

We sent them a polite letter asking them to stop the practice. Their response is that the FAA didn't *require* use of the radios, and they were going to continue their NORDO operations.

Save their response. If they cause an accident, you own their company.

 

[Half Fast]

I flew at Winter Haven this morning and actually heard a seaplane on the radio, landing at JB’s.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

I flew at Winter Haven this morning and actually heard a seaplane on the radio, landing at JB’s.

Wow. Call the news department!

 

[Half Fast]

Wow. Call the news department!

Yeah, I was pretty astonished!

 

[Ed Haywood]

So ... JB operated at 500 ft under the Winter Haven pattern for decades without incident. Then new owner takes over, changes standard practice to 1K, and within 2 years there is a midair. Is that right?

 

[Half Fast]

So ... JB operated at 500 ft under the Winter Haven pattern for decades without incident. Then new owner takes over, changes standard practice to 1K, and within 2 years there is a midair. Is that right?

Well, not exactly.

A friend who is a seaplane instructor uses Ben Shipps, JB's owner, as a DPE. In the last year or so, his students have been told to fly a 1000' pattern on checkrides and the reason is unknown. At this point, I don't even know if that altitude was being flown at JB's or at some other lake; they may very well have gone elsewhere to fly 1000' patterns and stayed at 500' at Brown's. We just don't know.

Now, when you write, "Then new owner takes over, changes standard practice to 1K, and within 2 years there is a midair," that's missing some details and not entirely accurate.

From JB's website:

In 1975, Jack Brown passed away. His oldest son, Jon, carried on what his father started, and over the 42 years that followed he established the solid reputation the base has today. In 2018, Jon's son-in-law, Ben Shipps, an instructor at the base, became an FAA Designated Pilot Examiner. In early 2019, Jon sold the business to Ben to carry on a legacy of sharing the wonderful world of floats.​

Ben Shipps has been instructing with JB's for a long time and became a DPE in 2018. He purchased the business from his father-in-law four years ago. It's not like Shipps came in recently and immediately changed the altitude. He's been at JB's for quite a while and is very aware of how and why operations have been conducted for many years.

My friend intends to talk with Shipps about the altitude concern, but obviously this isn't a good time, and also it's pretty likely that JB's lawyers have told him not to discuss the operation or crash.

 

[Half Fast]

JB operated at 500 ft under the Winter Haven pattern for decades without incident.

Oh, one other point. Take a look at a sectional. See all those 400', 500', 600' towers around KGIF and Jack Brown's? They weren't there decades ago. That might explain the change to a higher altitude.

 

[Salty]

You keep saying "this isn't a good time". I don't really understand that. Seems like this would be an excellent time.

 

[Half Fast]

You keep saying "this isn't a good time". I don't really understand that. Seems like this would be an excellent time.

If you're an investigator, yes, an excellent time. If you're a friend offering sympathies, also a good time. If you're an acquaintance/customer asking operational questions, probably best to let things settle down for a while.

 

[Salty]

If you're an investigator, yes, an excellent time. If you're a friend offering sympathies, also a good time. If you're an acquaintance/customer asking operational questions, probably best to let things settle down for a while.

Nope, don't get it. If you're operating in that area, seems like you should be asking these questions now.

 

[Half Fast]

Nope, don't get it. If you're operating in that area, seems like you should be asking these questions now.

Okay. My friend knows Shipps and doesn't want to call him right now. His choice.

 

[Salty]

Okay. My friend knows Shipps and doesn't want to call him right now. His choice.

I understand that. And I'm not suggesting an interrogation, but I'd certainly be asking about it.

 

[hindsight2020]

I certainly can't speak for the man, but I totally understand why they'd be going radio silent (pun very much intended) if the urbanization (cell phone towers) "gentrified" them out of their operating volume, and they unilaterally decided to start bombing through the already established and AFD published pattern altitude volume of KGIF, insisting in doing so NORDO to add insult to injury. Certainly not a potato anyone wants to be caught with when the alphabet soups come asking.

I hope we here in the braintrust can keep the thread open and free from censorious ad hominem and appeal to authority fallacies, like the 'I can say that about my club, but you can't' wagon circling dynamics that quickly manifested themselves over on the Dallas CAF mid air thread a while ago.

 

[Half Fast]

if the urbanization (cell phone towers) "gentrified" them out of their operating volume, and they unilaterally decided to start bombing through the already established and AFD published pattern altitude volume of KGIF, insisting in doing so NORDO to add insult to injury.

As I understand it (might be wrong), JB's previous protocal was to fly below 500' over the local lakes and stay over interconnecting canals to get from lake to lake.

That won't work when not flying over water, though, due to the towers in the area, besides regs about flying over congested areas. When going from higher altitudes over land to under 500' over water, there will necessarily be a transition distance (they're not flying helicopters or VTOL seaplanes). We don't have the track of the Cub in this instance, but it's entirely possible that they had been over land at >1000' and were descending over lake Hartridge, intending to go down to 500' and follow the canals back to Lake Jessie to land.

Lots that we don't know.

 

[Lindberg]

You keep saying "this isn't a good time". I don't really understand that. Seems like this would be an excellent time.

Do you have many conversations IRL?

 

[Salty]

Apparently I'm missing some nuance, but it seems like not talking about it is not a good way to deal with it.

 

[Lindberg]

Apparently I'm missing some nuance, but it seems like not talking about it is not a good way to deal with it.

Completely setting aside the potential legal aspects, talking about traumatic events can be an aspect of healing. But not, "Hey, those friends of yours who just died, do you think maybe it was your fault? Why would you do that? Let's drill down to the root cause and what you could have done to prevent having four deaths in your hands."

 

[Salty]

Completely setting aside the potential legal aspects, talking about traumatic events can be an aspect of healing. But not, "Hey, those friends of yours who just died, do you think maybe it was your fault? Why would you do that?"

Of course I wouldn't do that. There are other constructive ways of having that discussion.

 

[Lindberg]

Of course I wouldn't do that. There are other constructive ways of having that discussion.

"I'm very sorry for your loss. Please let me know how I can help you in any way."

 

[Half Fast]

My friend’s main concern is for his students. For the time being, I assume he’ll send them elsewhere. Maybe re-engage with Brown’s somewhere down the road.

Offering condolences as @Lindberg suggests is a courteous thing for a friend to do. It won’t get any info about procedures or planned changes. That’s a more difficult discussion.

 

[wanttaja]

This isn't just a friend-of-a-friend type rumor.

I was the president of my home airport's advisory board when it came out that training helicopters were flying in from Boeing Field to train at our airport, and turning off their radios to minimize distraction of the students.

We sent them a polite letter asking them to stop the practice. Their response is that the FAA didn't *require* use of the radios, and they were going to continue their NORDO operations.

Oh, a new factor... one that'll make those who rely on ADS-B a bit more nervous.

We still have considerable training helicopter traffic at my home field. Buddy of mine complained his ADS-B In wasn't showing the helicopters.

Airport elevation 57 feet. Helicopters use a ~400-foot MSL pattern, close in, to separate from the fixed wing traffic.

ATC radar is located just two miles from the airport. On ground with a 500-foot elevation.

The helicopters are literally flying under the radar.....

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Daleandee]

Oh, a new factor... one that'll make those who rely on ADS-B a bit more nervous.

We still have considerable training helicopter traffic at my home field. Buddy of mine complained his ADS-B In wasn't showing the helicopters.

Airport elevation 57 feet. Helicopters use a ~400-foot MSL pattern, close in, to separate from the fixed wing traffic.

ATC radar is located just two miles from the airport. On ground with a 500-foot elevation.

The helicopters are literally flying under the radar.....

Ron Wanttaja

I love ya Ron but I gotta toss a flag on this one. Your buddy needs to get his ADSB repaired as it's not functioning correctly (if the helicopters are transmitting).

First - ADSB transmits to ATC & other aircraft. I've experienced this as I've sat at the hold short line and watched my friends fly the pattern all the way to landing and I can see their speed & altitude on my ADSB display while also looking at them out the window.

Second - Anyone flying at 400' and looking at the ADSB display needs to learn NOT to do that. At 400' in the airport environment I'm eyes outside and on final approach (or departing straight out & eyes outside).

 

[Half Fast]

This isn't just a friend-of-a-friend type rumor.

I was the president of my home airport's advisory board when it came out that training helicopters were flying in from Boeing Field to train at our airport, and turning off their radios to minimize distraction of the students.

We sent them a polite letter asking them to stop the practice. Their response is that the FAA didn't *require* use of the radios, and they were going to continue their NORDO operations.

Ron Wanttaja

I am shocked, shocked, that they didn't reply with a polite letter politely explaining that, statistically, NORDO aircraft are almost never involved in a mid-air collision.

In fact, they could have politely mentioned that they were enhancing safety by going NORDO while training at your airport and thereby scaring people. After all, a very wise pilot once wrote:

NORDO airplanes aren't the problem. They SCARE people, yes. But it's a good thing to be scared, when operating in a busy pattern....

 

[Ed Haywood]

Sometimes a picture really is worth a lot of words. Multiple overlapping patterns from separate operations in the same lateral space. Deconfliction by vertical separation worked for 60 years. Absent that, a shared CTAF is the only other practical means to deconflict traffic. NORDO is not viable in this environment, especially not by a high volume commercial operation. Hate to say it, but JB is at real legal risk here.