Marker Beacons

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apr911

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apr911
I know marker beacons are becoming a thing of the past with most approaches getting rid of them but I'd like to fly at least 1 approach that uses them before they go the way of the dinosaurs so that I can take part in that era of aviation history.

(One day, I might make it to Montana so I can fly the transcontinental airway route/postal light routes through the mountains before the FAA decides to remove all trace of them from the charts again, even though they're still serviced: http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2015/April/28/Light-the-way)

What airport approaches do you know of that still rely on marker beacons?

Im in SoCal but Im interested in where they're still in use outside of the area too.
 
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Define your terms. To most of us, the term "marker beacon" means a transmitter that sends a narrow signal on 75MHz vertically at points along an ILS localizer. They cause a colored light to flash on your panel and an audio signal in your ears. A "locator marker beacon" transmits on a low frequency and is co-located with a marker beacon...its purpose is to allow pilots to navigate toward the marker beacon using an ADF (remember them?).

I think that you mean "airways beacon," and this will help: http://surveymarks.planetzhanna.com/airway-beacons-list-western-u-s/

By definition, airway beacons are for enroute navigation, not approaches.

Bob Gardner
 
Enjoyed the link. I never knew such thing existed these days.
 
Yeah airway (fan markers) are pretty much gone. There might be one or two around somewhere but the FAA doesn't use them navigationally anymore and they are officially not maintained. There are occasionally some associated with approaches that do have navigational significance on an airway that happens to be coincident with them.

Even on approaches they're rapidly disappearing. Back when I started my instrument training if you didn't have a middle marker, you had to had 50' to the minimums. That went away a long time ago. A lot of approaches even at major airports are losing their markers. One problem (in addition to the fact that DME and GPS are really obviating the need) is that the ground facilities are several miles off field. I know the marker for 19L at Dulles got trampled by some highway work on route 28. I used to drive by it every day on the way to work.
 
Marker Beacons...that funny sound and flashing that occasionally spooks you while shooting a "cirrus pattern"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Thanks Bob,

I was referring to the more common definition:

bobmrg said:
Define your terms. To most of us, the term "marker beacon" means a transmitter that sends a narrow signal on 75MHz vertically at points along an ILS localizer. They cause a colored light to flash on your panel and an audio signal in your ears.
Click to expand...

That being said, Im interested in other Aviation History/Trivia... Things the FAA has determined no longer significantly relevant and has already officially discontinued or started discontinuing their use of.

Awesome list by the way so thanks for sharing.
 
apr911 said:
I know marker beacons are becoming a thing of the past with most approaches getting rid of them but I'd like to fly at least 1 approach that uses them before they go the way of the dinosaurs so that I can take part in that era of aviation history.

(One day, I might make it to Montana so I can fly the transcontinental airway route/postal light routes through the mountains before the FAA decides to remove all trace of them from the charts again, even though they're still serviced: http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2015/April/28/Light-the-way)

What airport approaches do you know of that still rely on marker beacons?

Im in SoCal but Im interested in where they're still in use outside of the area too.
Click to expand...

Just for starters, because SOCAL is a pretty big target:
LGB rwy 30, BUR rwy 8, VNY rwy 16R, ONT rwy 26L. All are ILS approaches.
Just look for the fan markers on the plan view.

Bob
 
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apr911 said:
I know marker beacons are becoming a thing of the past with most approaches getting rid of them but I'd like to fly at least 1 approach that uses them before they go the way of the dinosaurs so that I can take part in that era of aviation history.

(One day, I might make it to Montana so I can fly the transcontinental airway route/postal light routes through the mountains before the FAA decides to remove all trace of them from the charts again, even though they're still serviced: http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2015/April/28/Light-the-way)

What airport approaches do you know of that still rely on marker beacons?

Im in SoCal but Im interested in where they're still in use outside of the area too.
Click to expand...

KLGB still has both an outer marker (75 Mhz blue light) and an outer compass locator [associated NDB]. KBUR still has an outer marker but not an outer compass locator.
 
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I had assumed my Marker Beacon receive was inop, until one day it started blinking - I'd flown over a fan marker. Funny artifact.
 
I was looking around Southern California for more of them. I couldn't find one middle marker. There still some inner markers around. The location of some of those inner markers makes me think that maybe they've just done away with middle markers completely. Can anybody find an approach anywhere with a middle marker, or better yet, an approach with all three, outer, middle and inner?
 
Things the FAA has determined no longer significantly relevant and has already officially discontinued or started discontinuing their use of.
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Lorans
NDBs
VORs
Common sense & fairness
oh, sorry I didn't mean that last one.
 
luvflyin said:
I was looking around Southern California for more of them. I couldn't find one middle marker. There still some inner markers around. The location of some of those inner markers makes me think that maybe they've just done away with middle markers completely. Can anybody find an approach anywhere with a middle marker, or better yet, an approach with all three, outer, middle and inner?
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The inner marker is only for Category II approaches.

Most, if not all, middle markers have been decommissioned.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Lorans
NDBs
VORs
Common sense & fairness
oh, sorry I didn't mean that last one.
Click to expand...

Don't blame the FAA for the loss of loran...that tag goes on the Commandant of the Coast Guard, dancing to the tune of the budget-cutters.

Bob Gardner
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Was it always that way?
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Yes, the middle marker was intended to mark the Category I DA.

Category II primarily uses the radar altimeter (RA) these days. The RA point is surveyed. If the terrain is unsuitable for RA then the inner marker is controlling. Example: KPIT 10L.
 
apr911 said:
That being said, Im interested in other Aviation History/Trivia... Things the FAA has determined no longer significantly relevant and has already officially discontinued or started discontinuing their use of.
Click to expand...

Transcribed weather broadcasts with latest hourly sequence reports (now METARS) over VOR frequencies. In the days before real-time XM or ADS-B weather in the cockpit, TWEBs were great.

Military Climb Corridors

VOTs

Voice ID on VORs. I still remember the nasal voice droning "Los Angeles ... Omni" (mis-pronounced 'Los Angle - liss', à la former Mayor Yorty). :rolleyes:

I'll think of others.
 
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It's almost too bad the new GPS toys weren't programmed to simply simulate them in places where they were decomm'd. On an approach they were good "backup" situational awareness of where you were on the approach without much brainpower involved. GPS replacements could have done the same thing from the gadget box.
 
aterpster said:
The inner marker is only for Category II approaches.

Most, if not all, middle markers have been decommissioned.
Click to expand...

They do show them on the regular ILS plates when they are there to a R/W that also has a CAT II or III approach to it. I saw one that was as far out as where a middle marker would normally be. That made me wonder if they had just decided to do away with term middle marker and call all inners and what used to be middles, inner markers. That was the only I saw that was that far out. It looks like they have probably just done away with middle markers completely.
 
SCCutler said:
I had assumed my Marker Beacon receive was inop, until one day it started blinking - I'd flown over a fan marker. Funny artifact.
Click to expand...

First time I heard a marker go off I wasn't even aware of what they were in the airplane. I was a student pilot on a solo cross country and flew over one. Volume was way up and it startled the s**t out of me. Every thing still seemed to be running fine, I landed and got my education on marker beacon receivers from another pilot on the ramp.
 
luvflyin said:
They do show them on the regular ILS plates when they are there to a R/W that also has a CAT II or III approach to it. I saw one that was as far out as where a middle marker would normally be. That made me wonder if they had just decided to do away with term middle marker and call all inners and what used to be middles, inner markers. That was the only I saw that was that far out. It looks like they have probably just done away with middle markers completely.
Click to expand...

Got an example?

MM triggers the yellow light, IM triggers the white light.
 
24R at LAX. The IM is .2 miles out. Every other one I saw is .1 mile out. The more I look at it, it's not all that far out, just farther than all the others I saw. It's past the missed approach point so my first speculation that it might have once been a MM is obviously wrong.
 
Pilawt said:
Transcribed weather broadcasts with latest hourly sequence reports (now METARS) over VOR frequencies. In the days before real-time XM or ADS-B weather in the cockpit, TWEBs were great.

Military Climb Corridors

VOTs

Voice ID on VORs. I still remember the nasal voice droning "Los Angeles ... Omni" (mis-pronounced 'Los Angle - liss', à la former Mayor Yorty). :rolleyes:

I'll think of others.
Click to expand...
.

I fear that uncontrolled airspace anywhere anyone actually wants to fly is on the endangered list
 
luvflyin said:
First time I heard a marker go off I wasn't even aware of what they were in the airplane. I was a student pilot on a solo cross country and flew over one. Volume was way up and it startled the s**t out of me. Every thing still seemed to be running fine, I landed and got my education on marker beacon receivers from another pilot on the ramp.
Click to expand...
I did the same thing. I was headed out on a local solo flight in Flint, MI (FNT). I departed Runway 18 and was instructed to turn right on course to the northwest. That course took me right over PETLI LOM. After terrorizing me for about 20 seconds, I recognized the tone from none other than Microsoft Flight Simulator as an outer marker and continued the flight.
 
aterpster said:
It's already gone in most of the continental U.S. and Hawaii.
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Which is quite strange in the desert southwest where it's still common for a controller to say they'll see you again in half an hour and to remain this frequency. Not much "control" possible when you can't see anyone.
 
denverpilot said:
Which is quite strange in the desert southwest where it's still common for a controller to say they'll see you again in half an hour and to remain this frequency. Not much "control" possible when you can't see anyone.
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Not true. ATC was provided in the US without radar for years. Still is in some places.
 
Happens even in the east coast megopolis from time to time. It's been a few times when I've heard "I've got to put you back on an airway, the next facility radar is out." I've even operated in the class B without a transponder when the primary radar was inoperative (essentially made me invisible to ATC).
 
roncachamp said:
Not true. ATC was provided in the US without radar for years. Still is in some places.
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More places than you might think. There are still Non Radar approach control facilities out there. Helena Montana is one I know off. If there is not an R in a circle before APP/DEP in the A/FD, it's a non radar approach facility. There is a lot of non radar separation done at radar facilities also, usually involving satellite airports. If the center is running it, approach and departure separation is almost always non radar rules. If an approach can't be seen on radar all the way to the ground and a departure can't be radar identified immediately after departure, non radar separation must be used.
ADSB, not being limited to line of sight to ground based radar antennas is going to change the whole equation in the coming years.
 
flyingron said:
Happens even in the east coast megopolis from time to time. It's been a few times when I've heard "I've got to put you back on an airway, the next facility radar is out." I've even operated in the class B without a transponder when the primary radar was inoperative (essentially made me invisible to ATC).
Click to expand...

Primary radar being out of service doesn't necessarily make you invisible to ATC. ATC really doesn't use primary radar much anymore. It's mostly secondary radar(transponders and interrogators). Primary is the echo, the blip, what stealth technology is designed to hide from. ATC has been using Secondary Radar(interrogators and transponders) as the main source of radar for a long time. There are a few things they do that require a primary radar return so they can get "green between", ensuring targets don't touch, but secondary radar has become so accurate over the years that primary radar doesn't even need to be displayed on their scopes most of the time. They actually began to install secondary only radars some years ago. No dish, no horn, just the interrogator rotating around in a circle.
 
Bangor, Maine still has an inner marker on the 15 ILS. Took my girlfriend up in a rental 152 and didn't have the marker audio turned off. Freaked her out when a flashing light and rapid beeping sounded 200 feet AGL before landing, she probably thought the plane was seconds from exploding.
 
luvflyin said:
Primary radar being out of service doesn't necessarily make you invisible to ATC. ATC really doesn't use primary radar much anymore. It's mostly secondary radar(transponders and interrogators). Primary is the echo, the blip, what stealth technology is designed to hide from. ATC has been using Secondary Radar(interrogators and transponders) as the main source of radar for a long time. There are a few things they do that require a primary radar return so they can get "green between", ensuring targets don't touch, but secondary radar has become so accurate over the years that primary radar doesn't even need to be displayed on their scopes most of the time. They actually began to install secondary only radars some years ago. No dish, no horn, just the interrogator rotating around in a circle.
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It does when the aircraft lacks a functioning transponder.

flyingron said:
Happens even in the east coast megopolis from time to time. It's been a few times when I've heard "I've got to put you back on an airway, the next facility radar is out." I've even operated in the class B without a transponder when the primary radar was inoperative (essentially made me invisible to ATC).
Click to expand...
 
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tehmightypirate said:
Bangor, Maine still has an inner marker on the 15 ILS. Took my girlfriend up in a rental 152 and didn't have the marker audio turned off. Freaked her out when a flashing light and rapid beeping sounded 200 feet AGL before landing, she probably thought the plane was seconds from exploding.
Click to expand...

So how'd the date go?
 
tehmightypirate said:
Bangor, Maine still has an inner marker on the 15 ILS. Took my girlfriend up in a rental 152 and didn't have the marker audio turned off. Freaked her out when a flashing light and rapid beeping sounded 200 feet AGL before landing, she probably thought the plane was seconds from exploding.
Click to expand...

Still has? IMs are for marking the CAT II DA. It's not going anywhere soon. It's Middle Markers that have gone away. They used to light the yellow light. The IM at Bangor should have activated your white light.
 
aterpster said:
Still has? IMs are for marking the CAT II DA. It's not going anywhere soon. It's Middle Markers that have gone away. They used to light the yellow light. The IM at Bangor should have activated your white light.
Click to expand...

Bangor doesn't have a CAT II approach. It used to have CAT II and CAT III approaches. They're gone, but the IM remains.
 
luvflyin said:
Can anybody find an approach anywhere with a middle marker, or better yet, an approach with all three, outer, middle and inner?
Click to expand...

I would love this... and it was pretty much what I was asking for when I asked the question. It sucks that all the middle markers seem to have been decommissioned.

Still, knowing there are some approaches that at least still have an outer or an inner is good to know. Interested in some more of the

Personally, I think someone whether it be the FAA, AOPA, the airports, etc should preserve this piece of history... On the one hand, budget cuts are needed and maintaining things like the vast network of VOR and marker stations are a cost that just isnt as needed as it used to be but if you kept 3 airports with at least 1 operational outer/middle/inner approach in each time zone in the US, you're looking at 12 approaches...

Then pilots across the US could fly one of these approaches without having to go too far...

Surely the cost required to maintain them would not have been so great as to required budget cuts? Granted, to go back now and reinstall 12 requires new surveys, probably reacquiring the land for the beacon (if it can even be used) and a host of other approvals that would make installing a new approach like this expensive.

Of course, I guess the real issue becomes the equipment in the plane. I haven't flown a plane with an ADF since my PPL, not that that was all that long ago, and even then we only had the 1 of the 6 planes equipped with it. Im sure its just a matter of time before the beacon indicators are pulled too.
 
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roncachamp said:
Not true. ATC was provided in the US without radar for years. Still is in some places.
Click to expand...


Duh. It's based in time speed and distance and in many areas you're not only out of radar coverage, you're not in Comm coverage below 11,000 either.

It's nice to know someone will send out the searchers, but it's far from "control". It's "see you in a half hour or we'll call Langley to start calling airports to see if you're on a ramp somewhere".

And of course we won't assign anyone else that altitude along your route of flight, but there's still other people out there. Don't run into them.
 
denverpilot said:
Duh. It's based in time speed and distance and in many areas you're not only out of radar coverage, you're not in Comm coverage below 11,000 either.

It's nice to know someone will send out the searchers, but it's far from "control". It's "see you in a half hour or we'll call Langley to start calling airports to see if you're on a ramp somewhere".

And of course we won't assign anyone else that altitude along your route of flight, but there's still other people out there. Don't run into them.
Click to expand...

It's not like that at all. Communications is required at the MEA and up. It does not have to be direct pilot-controller communications. Where that does not exist position reports and ATC instructions are relayed through FSS. That's why FSS is addressed as "Radio".
 
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