Logging King Air Time

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Pilot-To-Be

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Hello,

I recently had a trip in a King Air 200 flying right seat with an ATP rated pilot.

We flew a bit over 5hrs round trip and I flew half of that as PIC sole manipulator of controls. He let me takeoff, manipulate autopilot and radios and land the airplane.

Can I log the 5hrs under total time with only the 2.5 of which being PIC sole manipulator, or can I only log the time that I was PIC (2.5)? It seems there is gray area here. I am CMEL with instrument.
 
Pilot-To-Be said:
Hello,

I recently had a trip in a King Air 200 flying right seat with an ATP rated pilot.

We flew a bit over 5hrs round trip and I flew half of that as PIC sole manipulator of controls. He let me takeoff, manipulate autopilot and radios and land the airplane.

Can I log the 5hrs under total time with only the 2.5 of which being PIC sole manipulator, or can I only log the time that I was PIC (2.5)? It seems there is gray area here. I am CMEL with instrument.
Click to expand...
What does 61,51(e)(1)(I) say?
 
Pilot-To-Be said:
Hello,

I recently had a trip in a King Air 200 flying right seat with an ATP rated pilot.

We flew a bit over 5hrs round trip and I flew half of that as PIC sole manipulator of controls. He let me takeoff, manipulate autopilot and radios and land the airplane.

Can I log the 5hrs under total time with only the 2.5 of which being PIC sole manipulator, or can I only log the time that I was PIC (2.5)? It seems there is gray area here. I am CMEL with instrument.
Click to expand...
There's no gray area. You log 2.5.
 
Brad Z said:
What does 61,51(e)(1)(I) say?
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That talks about logging PIC time. I know I can log PIC when I’m sole manipulator. My question is whether or not I can log the time for the whole flight (5hrs) but only that 2.5 of which was PIC.

Would the whole flight count toward my total time as a pilot, but only the 2.5 would be PIC?
 
Pilot-To-Be said:
That talks about logging PIC time. I know I can log PIC when I’m sole manipulator. My question is whether or not I can log the time for the whole flight (5hrs) but only that 2.5 of which was PIC.

Would the whole flight count toward my total time as a pilot, but only the 2.5 would be PIC?
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What would you log the rest of the flight that you were not manipulating the controls as? Read the rest of 61.51.
 
RussR said:
Think about it. You're saying that you could fly for 10 minutes, climb in the back and take a nap, then log 5.0 total?
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Not what I’m saying. I’m still sitting right seat and working radios and being actively involved in the flight, I’m just not designated at “PIC” for that leg. I’m still flying regardless so it seems it should count toward total time.
 
Pilot-To-Be said:
Not what I’m saying. I’m still sitting right seat and working radios and being actively involved in the flight, I’m just not designated at “PIC” for that leg. I’m still flying regardless so it seems it should count toward total time.
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no, it doesn’t. You were a passenger in the eyes of the FAA.
 
Pilot-To-Be said:
So even though it’s still time I spent behind the controls flying it doesn’t count toward my total time… got it. That’s dumb.
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Were you flying? You just said you were "operating the radios". "Operating the radios" is not "flying the airplane".

Sitting at a control station doesn't make you the pilot.

I fail to see why that's "dumb". Stop trying to justify padding your logbook with turbine time.
 
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Pilot-To-Be said:
Not what I’m saying. I’m still sitting right seat and working radios and being actively involved in the flight, I’m just not designated at “PIC” for that leg. I’m still flying regardless so it seems it should count toward total time.
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Unless you're a required crew member (you were not), it's not loggable towards any certificate or rating. You could log that time in your personal diary, however.

Total time is total time as a pilot. Pilot time is defined in 61.1. Your presence in the right seat does not meet any of the requirements for pilot time however.
 
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So I guess this thread didn't clear your questions up?

www.pilotsofamerica.com

Another “Can I Log It” thread

Hello, I recently earned my CMEL certificate and I’m trying to network myself into getting some jobs. I have a buddy who flies C525’s and King Air 200’s. If I sit right seat in the King Air can I log sole manipulator or the whole thing if they require two pilots? Also, if I’m getting...
www.pilotsofamerica.com www.pilotsofamerica.com
 
Ok, so if I’m flying a single engine turboprop, a low time PPL is in the right seat, and I let them manipulate the AP and work the radios - can they log PIC? I am not a CFI.

I’m thinking that’s a bit of a stretch, no? That’s more like a passenger who manipulates the controls.
 
No, they cannot. They can only log time when they are gripping the yoke.

A manipulator of buttons can log SIC if they are appropriately trained, and required. Unless you’re the acting PIC, then you can log PIC when you’re doing nothing more than manipulating buttons.

People get all butt hurt by all of this… it’s just definitions. Someone mentioned logging it in a diary, which is a good idea, that’s all a logbook is. I logged “watching the flight engineer” (WTFE/R) time… in a B-29. Figured that was worth memorializing. The /R is recip and my flight engineer ticket is turbojet, so sadly it doesn’t count for anything… dang.

The point is, at some point in the future, sitting in the right seat even when you’re not required may well count towards “AE” (aeronautical experience, or something). Log it, annotate it, now you have a record of it. But as of right now, it doesn’t legally count towards anything.
 
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dans2992 said:
Ok, so if I’m flying a single engine turboprop, a low time PPL is in the right seat, and I let them manipulate the AP and work the radios - can they log PIC? I am not a CFI.

I’m thinking that’s a bit of a stretch, no? That’s more like a passenger who manipulates the controls.
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A passenger manipulating the controls can log PIC if he is rated in the aircraft. That’s what the reg says.
 
Pilot-To-Be said:
That talks about logging PIC time
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You’re right. So, now go through the rest of 61.51 (the Universal Rule of Logging Flight Time) and quote what you think authorizes the logging of any of the other 2.5.

“Dumb” in this context pretty much comes down to two statements.

1. The FAA doesn’t let me log what I want to.
2. The FAA allows people to log what I don’t want them to.
 
MauleSkinner said:
What’s dumb is that you can log PIC without being PIC.
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And you can't log PIC at times when you are PIC. Being PIC is neither a necessary or sufficient condition to log it.
 
The more interesting question might be how did the ATP rated pilot log his portion of the flight? Did he log it all as PIC? Is he a CFI?
 
Do you have a King Air type rating?
 
Next question OP should ask is if he can log the time without a high altitude endorsement. I assume he already has complex and high performance endorsements.

www.aopa.org

Other Ratings and Endorsements

Other types of ratings that may be applicable to pilots.
www.aopa.org
 
Let's also assume the autopilot was engaged....... ain't nobody "manipulating" any controls. Just have to decide how to split up the flight time between 2 dudes along for the ride.
 
texasclouds said:
Next question OP should ask is if he can log the time without a high altitude endorsement. I assume he already has complex and high performance endorsements.

www.aopa.org

Other Ratings and Endorsements

Other types of ratings that may be applicable to pilots.
www.aopa.org
Click to expand...

Not required to log PIC in this scenario.

KeepWatch said:
Let's also assume the autopilot was engaged....... ain't nobody "manipulating" any controls. Just have to decide how to split up the flight time between 2 dudes along for the ride.
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The OP said he or she did the takeoff and landing, so that would certainly be actual manipulation of the controls.
 
DFH65 said:
The more interesting question might be how did the ATP rated pilot log his portion of the flight? Did he log it all as PIC? Is he a CFI?
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I would bet money that the ATP pilot logged 5.0 as PIC, but unless he's a CFI (which seems doubtful, or the OP would have mentioned it), he should have only logged the remaining 2.5.
 
texasclouds said:
Next question OP should ask is if he can log the time without a high altitude endorsement. I assume he already has complex and high performance endorsements.

www.aopa.org

Other Ratings and Endorsements

Other types of ratings that may be applicable to pilots.
www.aopa.org
Click to expand...
Doesn't need any endorsements. Logging PC is based on certificates and aircraft ratings, not endorsements.
 
flyingron said:
And you can't log PIC at times when you are PIC. Being PIC is neither a necessary or sufficient condition to log it.
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Yup…the FAA differentiates between Acting and Logging, but provides no way to record the difference.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Yup…the FAA differentiates between Acting and Logging, but provides no way to record the difference.
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The FAA doesn't require a separation because they don't need to for qualification and currency, Q&C being the only FAA reasons for logging. I'm not sure why the FAA needs to provide a 61.51 category for something that doesn't count for Q&C. If we want to record "Part 1" PIC or one of the other things people choose to track and total for non-FAA purposes (HP, complex, and tailwheel time come quickly to mind), the only thing which needs to be provided is a spare logbook column/field.

I long ago gave up on the idea that the FAA needs to agree with me on what should and should not be logged for FAA Q&C.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The FAA doesn't require a separation because they don't need to for qualification and currency, Q&C being the only FAA reasons for logging. I'm not sure why the FAA needs to provide a 61.51 category for something that doesn't count for Q&C. If we want to record "Part 1" PIC or one of the other things people choose to track and total for non-FAA purposes (HP, complex, and tailwheel time come quickly to mind), the only thing which needs to be provided is a spare logbook column/field.

I long ago gave up on the idea that the FAA needs to agree with me on what should and should not be logged for FAA Q&C.
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They don’t need the Part 1 for Q&C, but they’ll make the determination in an investigation.

While I agree that the FAA doesn’t need to conform to my idea of what should be logged, I used to know an examiner who reduced his failure rate by not accepting applicants who used PIC time logged concurrently with Dual Received to meet PIC requirements. For all the complaints about the cost of examiners, apparently it’s often still cheaper than flying enough to have the proficiency to pass a checkride on the first try. ;)
 
RussR said:
Not required to log PIC in this scenario.



The OP said he or she did the takeoff and landing, so that would certainly be actual manipulation of the controls.
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Must have been a fairly gusty crosswind to consume 2.5 hrs
 
KeepWatch said:
Let's also assume the autopilot was engaged....... ain't nobody "manipulating" any controls. Just have to decide how to split up the flight time between 2 dudes along for the ride.
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The FAA (rightly, IMO) doesn’t differentiate between manipulation of the flight controls by mechanical means vs electrons or vacuum. It’s still manipulating the flight controls.
 
MauleSkinner said:
They don’t need the Part 1 for Q&C, but they’ll make the determination in an investigation.
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They will, but that determination of responsibility is only very loosely based on logging (if at all). I can guarantee that if, having been given a Brasher, an entire crew decides to log nothing for that flight, it won't prevent the FAA from assigning responsibility. They won't even break a sweat.
 
Pilot-To-Be said:
Not what I’m saying. I’m still sitting right seat and working radios and being actively involved in the flight, I’m just not designated at “PIC” for that leg. I’m still flying regardless so it seems it should count toward total time.
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I don't think you were "designated" PIC for any of the flight. Being the sole-manipulator of the controls does not make you the PIC. But it does sometimes mean you can log "PIC time." Even in the two-pilot world, the SIC isn't "designated PIC" on his flying legs.
 
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