Logbook Entries: Pen or Pencil?

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FlyRod

Filing Flight Plan
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Fly Rod
Is there a standard for logbook entries? Or, is it my choice to use pen or pencil?

If I must use a pen, what color should the ink be? Thank you.
 
I reckon the entries should be pen. I'm a student, so when I do solo entries I do it in light pencil and then once my instructor says they're good, I trace in black ink. I do light pencil because if I make a mistake, the eraser marks aren't that visible. Tons of eraser marks in a logbook do not look good.
 
Black pen, the same one. I keep it with the logbook.

<pokes bear> in the plane with me. :eek: The horror!
 
Daytime - black ink
Nightime - red ink
Combat - green ink

:)
 
Thank you, Pete. While doing some research, it seems it doesn't really matter unless you plan on flying professionally. If you do plan to fly professionally, it seems black ink is preferred. But, from what I've read so far, the FAA doesn't define a standard, even for professional pilots:

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
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That "manner" is not defined. What is acceptable?

Source:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...v8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.31&idno=14
 
I found an error in my logbook. For several weeks afterward, I would only write in pencil, then do another logbook audit and after confirming accuracy, trace in Pen. Black pen, but I don't get hung up on using blue.

I'm back to using pen, but think about it every once in awhile.

Pilots are special people. Who else would think of such things?
 
electronic :D

Standards for ink color have changed -globally, not just in aviation - through the years. For years black was standard because older copiers just didn't "see" blue. Then B&W photocopies got so realistic that there was a movement to blue so that originals could be differentiated from copies. Of course now, color copies are difficult to tell from the original. And, more recently, standards have changed so that, unless someone is actually challenging the authenticity of a signature (which they could always do anyway), it's pretty much become irrelevant.

There are still a couple of statutes and rules out there that specify a color of ink. But except for that and folks with a bit of OCD, it really doesn't matter, especially for hardcopy logbooks.
 
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DaleB said:
I wanna see you log a combat flight that starts during daylight hours and ends at night. :)
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Combat green trumps daytime black AND nighttime red! :)

Disclaimer: I have no green entries in my logbook. All attempts to cause bodily injury were self-inflicted or favors from friendlies. :rofl:

There was this one time in Subic Bay, however ... but that wasn't loggable :hairraise:
 
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FlyRod said:
That "manner" is not defined. What is acceptable?
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Pen and ink for paper logbooks. Just ask the Administrator, and that's what you'll be told. Pencil is too erasable/alterable, and that's not acceptable in legal documents. Nobody will care if you put the totals at the bottom of the page in pencil, but the flight entries themselves are supposed to be in a form which is permanent, and in which alterations will be readily apparent. Pencil doesn't meet those criteria.
 
One of my instructors uses erasable ink, which becomes non-erasable after a while.
 
I have a Parker 51 that's the same color as my airplane so I can log proper P51 time.
 
Electronic logbooks are easily altered, aren't they? If they are considered acceptable, then why should anyone have a problem with pencil logbook entries? :stirpot:
 
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Palmpilot said:
Electronic logbooks are easily altered, aren't they? If they are considered acceptable, then why should anyone have a problem with pencil logbook entries?
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If you go into the FAA AC on electronic record-keeping systems, you'll see that for FAA approval, they must have means to detect alterations.
 
I didn't know about that AC. Is it 120-78?

I notice it says FAA approval of electronic recordkeeping systems is not required for Part 91 operators.
 
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If you keep a logbook for yourself and any fed that may ask to see it then use whatever you feel like, black, blue, green, urple, pencil, crayon...whatever.

If there is more than a .000000000001% chance you will ever in your life present your logbook at a job interview then get an electronic logbook. If this is you then start early and start NOW. I've met a bunch of pilots who didn't convert their paper to electronic because they had ove 200 hours and that was way too much. Well, every flight it gets worse. Start now.

What to get;

If you're Mac: LogTen
If you're PC: Logbook Pro
 
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Palmpilot said:
I didn't know about that AC. Is it 120-78?
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Yes.

I notice it says FAA approval of electronic recordkeeping systems is not required for Part 91 operators.
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For things like maintenance and operations records, yes, but 61.51 specifically requires that pilot logbooks be kept in "in a manner acceptable to the Administrator." By contrast, 14 CFR 43.9 and 43.11 contain no such specific requirement for aircraft maintenance records, so you're free to do those in any manner you choose as long as the information requied by regulation is there.
 
Captain said:
If you keep a logbook for yourself and any fed that may ask to see it then use whatever you feel like, black, blue, green, urple, pencil, crayon...whatever.

If there is more than a .000000000001% chance you will ever in your life present your logbook at a job interview then get an electronic logbook. If this is you then start early and start NOW. I've met a bunch of pilots who didn't convert their paper to electronic because they had ove 200 hours and that was way too much. Well, every flight it gets worse. Start now.

What to get;

If you're Mac: LogTen
If you're PC: Logbook Pro
Click to expand...

Elucidate please.
 
Captain said:
If you keep a logbook for yourself and any fed that may ask to see it then use whatever you feel like, black, blue, green, urple, pencil, crayon...whatever.

If there is more than a .000000000001% chance you will ever in your life present your logbook at a job interview then get an electronic logbook. If this is you then start early and start NOW. I've met a bunch of pilots who didn't convert their paper to electronic because they had ove 200 hours and that was way too much. Well, every flight it gets worse. Start now.

What to get;

If you're Mac: LogTen
If you're PC: Logbook Pro
Click to expand...
That may work for the airlines, but if they aren't 120-78 compliant (and I don't know whether those two systems are or aren't), the FAA may not accept them for the FAA's purposes until you print them out and sign them as being accurate. In addition, many of those electronic systems have no way for an instructor to sign for training they gave you or for endorsements, and that creates other FAA problems, not to mention headaches for any instructor giving you training/endorsements.

Choose wisely.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I know the Parker 51 was WWII era. Do you actually have one or just making a joke?
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I not only have one (I have several) but I have one that is the same same color as my plane and date coded for the same quarter of the year (fourth quarter 1950) as my aircraft. The 51 was introduced in 1941 and continued production up until 1972. Parker reintroduced the 51 a few years back, but it's not really the same pen.

For a fountain pen they're pretty darned versatile. The hooded nib was designed so some of the more volatile inks (superchrome) could be used that dried quickly but not plug up the pen. In addition, the nib is pretty stout and back when I filled out FEDEX waybills with their multipart forms, the 51 was able to make the impressions on all copies.

I write regularly with fountain pens in general. Right now I have an Omas 360 in my pocket (My Pen Is enormous :)
 
Ron Levy said:
For things like maintenance and operations records, yes, but 61.51 specifically requires that pilot logbooks be kept in "in a manner acceptable to the Administrator." By contrast, 14 CFR 43.9 and 43.11 contain no such specific requirement for aircraft maintenance records, so you're free to do those in any manner you choose as long as the information requied by regulation is there.
Click to expand...

If you're saying that AC 120-78 defines what "a manner acceptable to the Administrator" means for the purposes of 61.51, then I don't see the justification for following the AC but ignoring its stated exceptions. Section 8, where the exception appears, says that it applies to "an operator or individual," and it doesn't state any limitation of scope that would exclude applicability to 61.51.
 
Ron Levy said:
Yes.

For things like maintenance and operations records, yes, but 61.51 specifically requires that pilot logbooks be kept in "in a manner acceptable to the Administrator." By contrast, 14 CFR 43.9 and 43.11 contain no such specific requirement for aircraft maintenance records, so you're free to do those in any manner you choose as long as the information requied by regulation is there.
Click to expand...

Hang on... where is the manner acceptable to the Administrator defined? If it's not in AC 120-78, where is it?

Unless there's specific written guidance (and I'm not saying there isn't) addressing pilot logbooks for flights under part 91, then it seems to me the only supplemental guidance given is in the AC which does not require electronic signature and non-repudiation.

This is an area that's still gray to me - so I put my flights into an electronic log for convenience, but periodically copy them in ink to a paper logbook, which I sign. Instructional flights, of course, get logged and signed in the paper.
 
TMetzinger said:
...This is an area that's still gray to me - so I put my flights into an electronic log for convenience, but periodically copy them in ink to a paper logbook, which I sign...
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Cap'n Ron mentioned printing it out and signing it. That seems like a pretty reasonable solution if there were ever an issue with it.
 
After my logbook nightmare of catching up and fixing multiple years of carry-forward errors to get ready for my Instrument ride...

Log entries... the actual lines... the legal stuff... black ink.

TOTAL columns... pencil.
 
Palmpilot said:
If you're saying that AC 120-78 defines what "a manner acceptable to the Administrator" means for the purposes of 61.51, then I don't see the justification for following the AC but ignoring its stated exceptions. Section 8, where the exception appears, says that it applies to "an operator or individual," and it doesn't state any limitation of scope that would exclude applicability to 61.51.
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He's making it up.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Elucidate please.
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Ron Levy said:
That may work for the airlines, but if they aren't 120-78 compliant (and I don't know whether those two systems are or aren't), the FAA may not accept them for the FAA's purposes until you print them out and sign them as being accurate. In addition, many of those electronic systems have no way for an instructor to sign for training they gave you or for endorsements, and that creates other FAA problems, not to mention headaches for any instructor giving you training/endorsements.

Choose wisely.
Click to expand...


Each and every airline is going to have different ways they are going to want your numbers broken down. Some will want night PIC by type while others will want ME night IFR separated from SE night IFR.

Yes I'm exaggerating...but not by much. Having your flights leg by leg in an electronic logbook will allow you to parse your time into whatever way each and every airline wants it broken down.

When you go to the interview you need to have the logbook printed out and bound in a professional looking binder. Why? Because everyone else will and you'll look like a retard standing there with a dozen busted up and worn logbooks in a plastic grocery bag.

You print the logbook, sign each page and bind it. You try to get the gouge on how that airline wants the hours so you can break the hours down the way they want before you show up. Many airlines send you a sheet to fill out prior to an interview so you'll know what they want.

Trust me, they all want different crap and it's going to be IMPOSSIBLE to go through paper logbooks and get anything more than a good guess at the correct time.
 
Palmpilot said:
If you're saying that AC 120-78 defines what "a manner acceptable to the Administrator" means for the purposes of 61.51, then I don't see the justification for following the AC but ignoring its stated exceptions. Section 8, where the exception appears, says that it applies to "an operator or individual," and it doesn't state any limitation of scope that would exclude applicability to 61.51.
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What I'm saying is that 120-78 defines what is acceptable to the Administrator as regards electronic recordkeeping when the record is required by the regs to be kept. If you can find any other documentation on what is "a manner acceptable to the Administrator" for keeping electronic records such as pilot logbooks, please let us know.
 
TMetzinger said:
Hang on... where is the manner acceptable to the Administrator defined? If it's not in AC 120-78, where is it?

Unless there's specific written guidance (and I'm not saying there isn't) addressing pilot logbooks for flights under part 91, then it seems to me the only supplemental guidance given is in the AC which does not require electronic signature and non-repudiation.

This is an area that's still gray to me - so I put my flights into an electronic log for convenience, but periodically copy them in ink to a paper logbook, which I sign. Instructional flights, of course, get logged and signed in the paper.
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The reg says "a manner acceptable to the Administrator," not "not in a manner unacceptable to the Administrator." If the Administrator hasn't said it's acceptable, you have no idea if it's acceptable or not. 120-78 gives you means that are acceptable. If you can find anything else which gives other means of electronic recordkeeping of pilot logbooks which are acceptable to the Administrator, please let us know. Otherwise, you're just guessing whether the Administrator will accept it or not, and the Administrator doesn't have to tell you a method not previously stated as acceptable is unacceptable until s/he takes your ticket. So, those systems not determined to be 120-78-compliant might turn out to be acceptable, but we have no way of knowing a priori if they will be, and every indication in 120-78 that systems which do not show when alterations are made will not be.
 
midlifeflyer said:
He's making it up.
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I'm not making anything up. I'm just pointing out that there is nothing but 120-78 to tell us what is "a manner acceptable to the Administrator" when it comes to electronic records. Do anything else at the risk of finding out ex post facto that what you did is not acceptable.
 
Logbooks (for the most part) are on the honor system anyway. Use a pencil, pen, crayon, chalk, or blood - it really doesn't matter. I generally use a pen.

Endorsements, biannuals, etc? I hand the guy or gal a pen.
 
Ron Levy said:
That may work for most stuff, but it may not be easy to do for instructor endorsements.
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LogTen Pro has signature capability on iOS devices. And if you change the record after that, the signature is deleted. Signatures print with the printed reports.
 
denverpilot said:
LogTen Pro has signature capability on iOS devices. And if you change the record after that, the signature is deleted. Signatures print with the printed reports.
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Here's the official answer I got from LogTen Pro:
I would advise, if an individual or operator is wanting to use LogTen Pro as their only means of documentation for requirements under Part 61, they should follow the FAA Approval process outlined in AC 120-78, which is simply consulting their local FSDO or the FAA Principal Inspector assigned to the operation within that FSDO.
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I started to read that and found this.

AC 120-78 was written as guidance for operators seeking to use electronic record keeping systems for operations and maintenance activities. While we believe we are in compliance, and checked with multiple FSDO's on our flight validation feature, the AC does not specifically refer to pilot logbooks.
 
Ron Levy said:
What I'm saying is that 120-78 defines what is acceptable to the Administrator as regards electronic recordkeeping when the record is required by the regs to be kept. If you can find any other documentation on what is "a manner acceptable to the Administrator" for keeping electronic records such as pilot logbooks, please let us know.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying there is another way to determine what is acceptable to the Administrator. I'm saying that there is no justification for following some parts of 120-78 and ignoring others, as you seem to be doing.
 
Ron Levy said:
That may work for most stuff, but it may not be easy to do for instructor endorsements.
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Perhaps a solution to that would be to continue to use both a paper logbook and an electronic logbook for activities that require an instructor's signature, and use only the electronic one for everything else. :dunno:

There must be enough people using electronic logbooks to make them worth the software publishers' while. It would be interesting to know how people are handling these issues.
 
We're in a transition phase folks. The move from paper to paperless has been going on for at least a decade...but these forces move slow. Give it time. For now...if you're a student in any capacity getting endorsements I'd stick with paper. If you are operating on your certificated maintain electronic. (students do both and save yourself the effort later)

You people with just paper logbooks...they are going to end up in a land fill. Your grand kids or kids are never going to go through them and care 1 billionth as much as you do. My point is the logbook is a record. It's sentimental to you alone...but at the end of the day it's a record. Treat it as such and make it electronic to reap the full value of that record.
 
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