Logbook Entries: Pen or Pencil?

[Inverted]

Log the flights in black ink. Total the bottom in pencil.

 

[denverpilot]

I use both, actually. Mostly as a curiosity thing... The electronic allows vastly faster queries about "stuff", but the paper is the legal record.

I don't use the signature feature in LogTen, I was just pointing out that it exists. And no tiny company that size is going to get a blanket blessing like say, a Jepessen would if they bought the company and requested the Administrator's opinion.

They're always going to limit their liability and say, "Use at your own risk."

Personally, I think LogTen has significant technical weaknesses, like the logbook data isn't encrypted and keyed. It's fairly easy to mangle/hack on the raw file(s).

But alternatively, idiots today the world over -- do *major* business -- on the reception of a non-encrypted, non-authenticated e-mail sent over the most insecure communications network in the world.

Attach a PDF and you really look professional. Ha. Ooh. Ahh. Fancy.

A way to send a document to your bank with both authentication and encryption? You're lucky if a bank even has file transfer capability from your end...

So logging software is miles ahead of that example, and thousands more significantly more important ones.

 

[DouglasBader]

If there is more than a .000000000001% chance you will ever in your life present your logbook at a job interview then get an electronic logbook. If this is you then start early and start NOW.

I've attended a lot of job interviews (and been hired a lot) for quite a few different kinds of flying, from utility to airline and a lot of stuff in between. A few places haven't bothered to review my logbooks, but most have.

Recently I interviewed with an operator who did look through my logs. My logbooks include all my medicals glued in order in the back, as well as my government cardings, etc. Business cards, some photographs, and other documentation is there. The logs are in black ink and blue. There are a few things printed and glued in there. Some of the logbooks are falling apart; the spines are glued together with reinforcing tape or leather holding them in one piece.

The operator discussed my logbook over lunch. They'd recently had an applicant who talked a great story, but when it came to certain items in their past, they didn't want to talk about it. Their logs weren't nearly as complete, and when it came to some of the things they claimed to have done, they were found to be false. Some of the background wasn't as easily traceable as say, flying for an airline. Some of it involved operations in places and with organizations that aren't nearly as forthcoming or open, but this particular operator had just such a background, and a fairly good bull**** detector, as well as some fairly extensive connections with that community. It turned out that the other person was lying, on multiple counts. The extent of the lying was actually surprising.

In my case, the operator noted that they had no problem verifying my experience; it was all there, as well as all the means to check it out. They made copies of certain items. They didn't care about blue ink or black ink. Most of the log entries contained a lot of detail, from winds to call signs to trip numbers to specific fire numbers to other details that clearly authenticated the record. It made them easy to check. The operator was quite pleased with what was found.

I've never shown an operator or employer my electronic records. They're not complete anyway; they're mainly a way to keep track of things when I'm in the field for an extended time, before I can transfer them to a paper logbook at home.

The paper logs remain in a fire resistant safe.

I don't do totals in pencil. From time to time I'll find an error. It's a very simple thing to address. Just make a new line entry, as though it's a new flight. Put the current date. Make the corrections in the appropriate column (plus or minus), and in the comments section, note what's being corrected and for what page number or date in the logbook. Then at the bottom of the page, the totals will be correct, and it's hardly noticeable. It blends in and doesn't scream "mistake!" in big letters. It's far better than erasing and correcting a total. Your logbook shouldn't be altered; if you make mistakes, move on, and make an entry later when the mistake is found. It's a very simple thing.

You people with just paper logbooks...they are going to end up in a land fill. Your grand kids or kids are never going to go through them and care 1 billionth as much as you do. My point is the logbook is a record. It's sentimental to you alone...but at the end of the day it's a record.

I know a lot of people who treasure their parents (or grandparent's) logbook. It's often a piece of historical heirloom that marks an important part of that ancestor's life. One's grandfather may have served as a pilot in WWII; that war is long over and most likely that person is long dead, but the logbook may pass down through generations just the same. Perhaps to you it's not a big thing.

My logbooks are a journal of my life. I've been flying all my teenage and adult life, and it's been a very varied and divergent career. My logs will never be best sellers or museum pieces, and I don't care if my children keep them or burn them. It really doesn't matter. My logs are accurate meticulous records of my life, complete with souvineers, pictures, and details that mark most of my time on earth. That's enough for me. No electronic book can take that place.

My logbooks have saved me from the FAA twice, and from court involvement more than once. They've served as reference records for the winds on a given day when spraing crops, helping me avoid dealing with an expensive drift claim. My logs showed endorsements and instruction given that kept me out of a court room when a former student crashed and destroyed an airplane. My logbooks convinced the FAA not to proceed with certificate action when I was able to show that my records of a particular flight (and the duty and rest times associated with it) were more more comprehensive and complete than the company records. Instead, scrutiny was thrown on the company, which didn't keep nearly as good records.

My logs have satisfied employers, investigators, and friends. They've been pawed through by the FAA, by airlines, charter operators, ag operators, government agencies, and others. They've been vetted and checked. They're my scrapbooks. I don't care if they make it through generations to come, but I do care if they work for me, and they do.

Electronic logs are okay, but they'll never take the place of my paper logs.

I was once looking at purchasing a Smith Mini-Plane. I was talking with an old hand at the time, and commented that employes reading the logbook probably wouldn't know what it was. "Why don't you snap a picture and put it in the logbook?" He said. It would answer their question, and it would be a conversation piece. Handy in an interview. I've got a few pictures here and there, a few momentos. Business cards. Memorabilia. Nothing elaborate. They're not photo albums, nor are they destined to be anything but my own logbooks. My jump logs are the same way. Perhaps important to nobody but me, but then they don't have to be. They've proven invaluable in seeking employment, and they've satisfied the FAA, designated examiners, the curious, and the dubious. That's more than enough for me.

Electronics are dandy, but won't ever take the place of my paper logs. I started a new one a few months ago, and like the last, it will probably take over ten years to fill. Ten years from now I probably won't be any closer to finishing moving everything to an electronic book, but will likely have made some headway on the current mint-green paper one.

 

[Captain]

Doug, you probably still read news papers too...the old fashioned kind printed on paper.

Like it or not electronic is coming. I say we embrace our new digital overlords.

: )

 

[DouglasBader]

Have a ball. When you've been to as many job interviews as I have, and worked for as many employers as I have, and had your lobooks reviewed as many times as I have, give me a call. That won't happen for a long, long time.

I read papers. I get regular Department of State news bulletins every day; several times a day. I catch CNN and other news when I have a chance. I listen to the radio.

None of that affects the way I log flight time.

I've NEVER had an employer ask to see my electronic flight log. The FAA doesn't care if I keep one.

Transferring my data to electronic logs is long and tedious. It will probably never get finished. Not a big deal.

You feel right at home to get in touch with your inner overlords though, if it makes you feel better.

 

[Captain]

Let me try again and bold the important part:

Doug, you probably still read news papers too...the old fashioned kind printed on paper.

Like it or not electronic is coming. I say we embrace our new digital overlords.

: )

It was a joke.

 

[Palmpilot]

If I switch to electronic logging, I wouldn't convert the paper logs. I would just use the electronic one for new flights. (For flights that an instructor has to sign for, I would still use the paper log, and copy the information to the electronic one for the purpose of adding up the of hours.)

 

[Meliss]

I have a couple entries in my logbook that I didn't have a black pen handy, so I put it down in blue ink. then I had a CFI tell me that I shouldn't have done that. And to never use white out.

But I did my math wrong on one page, and I had to white it out. Is this really a big deal?

 

[Captain]

I have a couple entries in my logbook that I didn't have a black pen handy, so I put it down in blue ink. then I had a CFI tell me that I shouldn't have done that. And to never use white out.

But I did my math wrong on one page, and I had to white it out. Is this really a big deal?

No, but in the future I'd stay away from using white out. Btw, the CFI who told you not to use blue was teaching you technique.

 

[tinerj]

If you use a paper logbook and want an electronic copy, merely photograph each page with a digital camera, a simple one is sharp enough provided it can focus close. It's faster than scanning it in or typing the info in by hand.

Attached is an example using my wife's point and shoot digital camera. It's an aircraft log, not a pilot log, but something I had handy.

 

[Palmpilot]

If you use a paper logbook and want an electronic copy, merely photograph each page with a digital camera, a simple one is sharp enough provided it can focus close. It's faster than scanning it in or typing the info in by hand.

Attached is an example using my wife's point and shoot digital camera. It's an aircraft log, not a pilot log, but something I had handy.

For me, the purpose of an electronic logbook would be to automate the calculation of various types of logged time. A digital camera would not accomplish that.

 

[jesse]

I do logbook entries with a black pen and I look in the student's logbook before I write in it to see what color they use so that I can match it. Why? Because it looks better. Every detail counts.

The totals I do in pencil. It makes things much easier to fix later. Mistakes will happen.

 

[DouglasBader]

I have a couple entries in my logbook that I didn't have a black pen handy, so I put it down in blue ink. then I had a CFI tell me that I shouldn't have done that. And to never use white out.

But I did my math wrong on one page, and I had to white it out. Is this really a big deal?

White-out looks tacky, and isn't a proper way to correct errors.

Line through the error. If you feel really correct that day, initial the line-through, then either put the correct information, or simply do it correctly on a new line. No big deal. Or you can leave it as is (it isn't so obvious that way) and do a correction line as a new entry. Explain in the remarks what you're doing. It's subtle, doesn't look like you made a mistake, corrects the mistake, and life moves on.

I use black and blue pens in my logbook. You can usually tell the professional pilot because his pens are whatever he got from the last hotel room. Sometimes they're black, sometimes they're blue.

I don't use pencil in my logbooks.

 

[Bobcat1]

I use black and blue pens in my logbook. You can usually tell the professional pilot because his pens are whatever he got from the last hotel room. Sometimes they're black, sometimes they're blue.

Not only that, but you can produce a copy of your company flight time records for the past couple of years to backup your logbook as well. I have the chief pilot stamp and attest my logbook every December. That kind of stuff helps when you want to take a leave of absence to go fly for some expat outfit.

Paper logbooks aren't going away any day soon. (But the electronic ones sure make it handy though!)

 

[denverpilot]

Stamp?

 

[Bobcat1]

Stamp?

Yup. He takes out the airline's rubber stamp and signs next to it. He's certifying that all your times entered are true and correct. Chief pilots and sometimes fleet managers, if the airline is large enough, can do that sort of thing if you ask 'em. It's not a requirement, so not everybody does it.

 

[denverpilot]

I was mostly curious of it was a real (quaint) rubber stamp.

 

[Jaybird180]

I was mostly curious of it was a real (quaint) rubber stamp.

It's pretty inexpensive if you want to have one made.

 

[Bobcat1]

It's pretty inexpensive if you want to have one made.

Yeah, but references and company flight time records would take a bit more to forge. The only time when I really needed to get my logbook certified/stamped was when I was considering taking a leave for a couple of years and flying for some outfit in the far east.

My father flew for a different airline and I noticed that one of his logbooks had stamps/ signatures at the end of each calendar year back in 1946-48.

 

[pilot_dude]

Every self made post in my log book is in pencil. The only ones in ink are the ones made by CFI/CFII/DPE. Never had an issue with anyone from the FAA on any check ride or CFI during a BFR.

 

[tinerj]

For me, the purpose of an electronic logbook would be to automate the calculation of various types of logged time. A digital camera would not accomplish that.

Right, which is why I have an electronic logbook, too.

But a digital camera makes it possible to create a backup copy of almost any paper document (prop log, airframe log, engine log) quickly and easily that can be copied to a jump drive and placed elsewhere as insurance in case the paper one disappears.

 

[DouglasBader]

Never had an issue with anyone from the FAA on any check ride or CFI during a BFR.

You won't, either, especially if it's just a private record of your flying. You could keep it in crayon, for that matter.