Labor shortages are annoying.

Well, I spoke with the shop again this morning. They still haven't even started on my plane. You guys upthread need to figure out how to fix the labor shortage for 91 mechanics so I can get my plane back.
 
PPC1052 said:
You guys upthread need to figure out how to fix the labor shortage for 91 mechanics so I can get my plane back.
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Well according to the consensus on the thread, offer them an additional $25,000 and you should have your aircraft back the next day.:)
 
Pinecone said:
That was something that shop classes in high school did.

Introduce people to mechanical things, and that some of them would like it and follow it as a career path.

Now, those same people go to college and fluke out and have no skills.
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Or, like my hometown highschool... 70% drop out of HS. Because they don't see the point. They don't see the point to life either. Give them something they can see themselves building a life with, and I bet you'd cut it in half.
 
Bell206 said:
Your original post implied you had a comparative number in mind as other posts. I'm just curious what those numbers might be and how they compared to what is actually offered. Nothing more.

This is interesting. Are you saying in your area school systems there is no longer vocational or occupational classes offered anymore? In the areas around here the individual vocational classes were reorganized and are now offered out of standalone school buildings or a public magnet school system at the high school level. So while each high school no longer has a shop class, any student wishing that training now splits their time between the "shop" school and their regular high school. Perhaps they did the same in your state? If they didn't I'd say that was not a wise decision on their part.
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I don't believe our district has anything like it. We're #2 or3 in our state for "awesomeness" too...
 
MIFlyer said:
Or, like my hometown highschool... 70% drop out of HS. Because they don't see the point. They don't see the point to life either. Give them something they can see themselves building a life with, and I bet you'd cut it in half.
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I've often thought that schoolkids, boys especially, should be taken out of school after Grade 9 and put to work for a year in a bunch of different workplaces so he can see what makes the world go 'round. One of those might grab his interest, and the last three grades of school would be far more successful.
 
MIFlyer said:
I don't believe our district has anything like it.
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Maybe your district is part of a larger regional program? In my experience, I find it hard to believe every school district doesn't have some form of vocational programs or CTE as it was called above. Have you looked up your district offerings?

Dan Thomas said:
I've often thought that schoolkids, boys especially, should be taken out of school after Grade 9 and put to work for a year in a bunch of different workplaces so he can see what makes the world go 'round. One of those might grab his interest, and the last three grades of school would be far more successful.
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I think the ticket to get this idea to work now is develop some form of digital platform that will expose students to all the same experiences. Could even touch into the virtual side with some industries as this is used to train people now. Face it, younger people want it on their phone or something similar. Analog is dying or dead. Even the new A&Ps we were hiring just before I retired would spend hours trying to download a maintenance procedure onto their phone when it would have taken 2 minutes to look it up in the hardcopy books right in front of them.
 
Part of the problem is when kids are making decisions regarding a career choice:

1. The kids are not familiar with choices other than NFL, NBA, NHL etc. Not much
room there. They have never been exposed to other options.

2. The parents seldom are familiar with choices outside their immediate sphere.

3. Guidance Counselor’s? Don’t get me started!

Many High Schools are ranked by the % of students that go on to college. Successful plumbers, carpenters, chefs, cosmetologist and mechanics are not factored in.

And the public is just fine with it.

You know how to identify some of the college folks? Just yell; “ Oh Waiter!”
 
When I was a young buck if you wanted money in your pocket you had a job. Might as well make it a good one. Many kids now are so coddled and given everything that is "owed" to them that, as my dad would say, "they wouldn't work in a pie factory if you gave them their lunch!"
 
Bell206 said:
Your original post implied you had a comparative number in mind as other posts. I'm just curious what those numbers might be and how they compared to what is actually offered. Nothing more.

This is interesting. Are you saying in your area school systems there is no longer vocational or occupational classes offered anymore? In the areas around here the individual vocational classes were reorganized and are now offered out of standalone school buildings or a public magnet school system at the high school level. So while each high school no longer has a shop class, any student wishing that training now splits their time between the "shop" school and their regular high school. Perhaps they did the same in your state? If they didn't I'd say that was not a wise decision on their part.
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AFAIK they are all gone.

I don't have school aged kids. But I will ask around.

EDIT--------

I checked with a friend who has a high school aged child. In Maryland all the shop classes and home ec and things like are no longer. There are some technical schools that have such classes, but you have to do to those specifically. So you don't get the brighter ones taking a shop class and finding they like and are good at something like that.

There was no doubt I was college bound. But I took Graphics Arts in high school. Learned how to run various printing presses and also got started in photograph, including darkroom work.
 
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Pinecone said:
AFAIK they are all gone.

I don't have school aged kids. But I will ask around.

EDIT--------

I checked with a friend who has a high school aged child. In Maryland all the shop classes and home ec and things like are no longer. There are some technical schools that have such classes, but you have to do to those specifically. So you don't get the brighter ones taking a shop class and finding they like and are good at something like that.

There was no doubt I was college bound. But I took Graphics Arts in high school. Learned how to run various printing presses and also got started in photograph, including darkroom work.
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How new is the theatre or sports field at that school I wonder? :)
 
Bell206 said:
Well it seems Maryland (if your avatar is correct) has a rather extensive high school level vocational or CTE program.... and it includes auto mechanics, construction trades, and even machinists.
https://marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Documents/CTE/CTE_Programs_of_Study_2022.pdf
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As I understand it, they are separate schools. So you only get those who pick that track early.

With the shop classes in every school, you might get some who would not pick that until they experience it.
 
Pinecone said:
As I understand it, they are separate schools. So you only get those who pick that track early.

With the shop classes in every school, you might get some who would not pick that until they experience it.
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Shop was elective as far back as I can remember. I grew up in the sticks and just about everybody (male and female alike) took to Intro Ag Mechanics as a senior year elective…a semester of welding, small engine repair, basic electrical and plumbing. Lots of folks learned stuff, but very few, if any, went on to the trades. A lot of them aren’t calling a repairman to change a burnt out lightbulb though.
 
Pinecone said:
As I understand it, they are separate schools. So you only get those who pick that track early.
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The point of the post was you stated on several occasions these type classes were removed or stopped in your area. It seems hardly the case and Marylands program is very similar to most states CTE programs and plainly states each student has access to these programs. Your choice of "no trades classes" vs "trades classes in separate buildings" are two different things. In my local district the school system buses students between the regular school and the "trade" school.
Pinecone said:
With the shop classes in every school, you might get some who would not pick that until they experience it.
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I don't quite follow your point here. Are you saying you were forced to attend shop classes in school? To add to the above, I went to Jr High and High school in the 70s and any shop or home ec classes were all elective classes. We had to choose certain elective classes each year but there were no forced classes. I elected art and Spanish in 7th grade, general shop and Spanish in 8th grade. Went onto Graphics Arts in 9th, Auto 1 in 10th, and Auto 2 in 11th grade. 12th grade there was no requirement. At no other time was I "forced" to attend any "shop" classes. So I don't really see the difference between the option of CTE today and the options I had back in the 70s.
 
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One good thing Texas has done with all public post secondary education, whether vocational or collegiate is standardize foundation curriculum. English I is English I, Auto I is Auto I. Many of our CTE programs allow a high school graduate to enter their next phase of schooling with the ‘basics’ knocked out in High School as a dual credit course.

Someone who takes Aviation Weight & Balance in their high school CTE plan of study doesn’t have to re-take it at the Community College while pursuing an A&P/Associate of Science in Aviation Technology.

I’m sure other states have similar schemes and it does a great job preparing high schoolers for the next phase of life by providing the opportunity for greater responsibility with greater reward by shortening the next phase if they choose to go that route.
 
Bell206 said:
The point of the post was you stated on several occasions these type classes were removed or stopped in your area. It seems hardly the case and Marylands program is very similar to most states CTE programs and plainly states each student has access to these programs. Your choice of "no trades classes" vs "trades classes in separate buildings" are two different things. In my local district the school system buses students between the regular school and the "trade" school.
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As I said, I don't have children. I asked a friend who has a high school aged child and was told they are separate schools in MD. You go to one or the other.

As for the old days, no not everyone who took a shop class ended up in the trades, but a few did. And I am sure a few that didn't go right into trades went to college, did not stay and remembered having a good time in shop class.

Basically, IMO, schools should exposure students to a wide range of things.
 
I was flunking out of a regular hi school, wanted to quit the first week of my senior year. Last minute I went to a vocational school for a one year course called floor mechanics and learned how to work with my hands doing flooring. Had a drill Sargent type of guy for an instructor who motivated me and a few others. I exploded out of there with my hi school degree and the confidence that I could do anything I wanted for a living and did.
I did all kinds of work including working at a machine shop 2nd shift full time during my senior year. I made more money than any of my friends at the time. Gave me the confidence to build engines and much more. Best decision of my life so far.

A few of us went to visit our old instructor at his home years later to thank him for what he did for us.
 
Has anyone else noticed the relationship between this thread and “ Aircraft Upholstery “?

“ Someone” ( Unknown Agency , Hangar Fairy ) replaces their interior furnishings.
However; there is no requirement that a Permanent Record of the burn certification be kept! So it’s even more liability for the A & P (IA) !

That will certainly attract more Techs to GA. Not!

Note : US
 
Magman said:
However; there is no requirement that a Permanent Record of the burn certification be kept! So it’s even more liability for the A & P (IA) !
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True. But unfortunately there are no requirements for other important tasks like engine rebuilds, prop overhauls, and so on either outside the requirements in 91.417. So unless its listed in 91.417 any mx record is only required to be kept until repeated or for 1 year... exception for 411/413 checks at 2 years. Even an CRS is only required to records for 2 years. But the system is set up where everyone is supposed to document all maintenance and when the IA signs the annual he confirms the year's previous work, to include new interior materials, conform to the type design. The problem is not everyone follows the rules.
Magman said:
Note : US
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FYI: you'll find other countries have similar records retention rules to the FAA 91.417. For example, the EASA requires 3 years on records except their system of owner requirements, CAMO requirements, etc is somewhat complex and there might be several different retention periods for the same aircraft records depending on who is overseeing the maintenance.
 
When you encounter aircraft with an interior that has some miles on it and paint that is just a little tired that’s a good thing to me. New paint or interior sets off alarms regarding Control Balance and Burn Certs. Often the owner is new and has no clue on these. It can be multiple Techs sign the Inspections and wear the Liability Cloak.

I believe Canada is much more stringent on Cert retention.
 
Magman said:
It can be multiple Techs sign the Inspections and wear the Liability Cloak
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If there is any doubt on the control balance or interior materials its the mechanics duty to determine the status whether it looks new or old. If they dont they violate the rules. Simple. For me, I'm more suspect of older paint/interior that doesnt look as old as it should be. But technically the liability ends with the last annual signature in the book.
Magman said:
I believe Canada is much more stringent on Cert retention.
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I'm sure Dan will correct me, but I believe the Canadian TCCA has an aircraft records retention policy very similar to the FAA policy.

FYI: The EASA has the most restrictive and complex regulatory system in the world and makes the FAA and TCCA look simple in comparison.
 
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Bell206 said:
I'm sure Dan will correct me, but I believe the Canadian TCCA has an aircraft records retention policy very similar to the FAA policy.
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CAR 625:

625.96 Technical Records Other Than Journey Logs
  • (1) Pursuant to CAR 605.96, the owner of an aircraft shall maintain and retain technical records, other than the Journey Log, until such time as the aircraft is no longer registered.
  • (2) Technical records pertaining to repetitive inspections of aircraft need only be retained until the inspection activity is repeated.
The technical records are the airframe, engine, propeller, and component logbooks. The Journey Log is something Americans don't use. It records every flight: who the pilot was, where the airplane went, air time and flight time, the running total of air time, and any snags noted during the flight. Maintenance actions are recorded in it, with the exhaustive maintenance entries made in the tech logs. A chart in the front tracks current weight and balance numbers. It's a handy book.

The records pertaining to repetitve inspections would be the inspection checklists, snag and rectification lists. We never threw those out either.
 
Dan Thomas said:
The Journey Log is something Americans don't use
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Is it the Journey log that has the minimum 1 year retention period? Is there also a TCCA requirement to transfer the journey/technical records to a new owner when aircraft is sold?
 
Bell206 said:
Is it the Journey log that has the minimum 1 year retention period? Is there also a TCCA requirement to transfer the journey/technical records to a new owner when aircraft is sold?
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  • 605.94 (3) The owner of an aircraft shall retain every entry in a journey log for a period of not less than one year.
605.97 Every owner of an aircraft who transfers title of an aircraft, airframe, engine, propeller or appliance to another person shall, at the time of transfer, also deliver to that person all of the technical records that relate to that aeronautical product.

There are more details elsewhere, but they're scattered around somewhat in the CARs and CARs Standards.

Most owners will retain all the Journey Logs. A buyer is impressed with an unbroken record of the airplane since it was built.
 
Apologize for the massive thread drift....

Dan Thomas said:
Most owners will retain all the Journey Logs.
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Just like people keep all records here. So technically, the journey logs with any maintenance recorded in those logs and any superseded inspection forms are only required to be kept for 1 year under 605.94? Are aircraft under the Owner-Maintained category required to keep Journey Logs, Inspection forms, and technical records per the same regulations? If not, where and in what form do these owners enter and sign the Maintenance Release? And have you heard of any issues with Owner Mx category aircraft being disassembled and those parts being sold as legit TC aircraft parts?
 
Going to the original topic.

There are folks that believe; “ I know something you don’t know so I’m better than you”. Or: “ I had to learn the hard way so you learn that way too”.

This can be quite discouraging to someone starting out in any field. The person in charge may not realize that the occasional pat on the back can be more effective than a kick in the a__.

There was a local Tech that was noted for his skills. However; when working with others he gave out no information or even the wrong information. He had grown up during The Depression and was very insecure about his job.


I’ve had the opportunity to work with really great people and well as some jerks.
Generally the more experienced folks are paid more for their skills. Isn’t that recognition enough? Why keep reminding the “ new kids” that they don’t have the same knowledge ?
 
Different people respond differently to a kick in the butt. For some it is exactly what they need
 
Bell206 said:
So technically, the journey logs with any maintenance recorded in those logs and any superseded inspection forms are only required to be kept for 1 year under 605.94?
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Yup. But nobody tosses them that soon. Most never toss them.

Bell206 said:
Are aircraft under the Owner-Maintained category required to keep Journey Logs, Inspection forms, and technical records per the same regulations? If not, where and in what form do these owners enter and sign the Maintenance Release?
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  • 605.92
  • (3) In the case of a balloon or glider, or an aircraft operated under a special certificate of airworthiness in the owner-maintenance or amateur-built classification, all entries in respect of the technical records referred to in paragraphs (1)(b) and (c) may be kept in the journey log.
That's a regulation from 2002. Before that, those craft needed the usual tech logs as well as the Journey log. Many still have them all.

Bell206 said:
And have you heard of any issues with Owner Mx category aircraft being disassembled and those parts being sold as legit TC aircraft parts?
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Nope. There aren't many OM airplanes anyway. The airframe, and engine and prop serial markings are supposed to be stamped with an X suffix upon issuance of the OM registration to prevent transfer of those parts to certified airplanes, but I could imagine some smaller stuff finding its way into the certified market. Could happen with homebuilt parts, too. The law can't stop a determined crook. It can only punish him if it can catch him.
 
Pinecone said:
Over emphasizing college for everyone. And removing trades type classes in schools.
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Not to mention the current administration is paying off education loans and pushing for "free college for everyone."
 
Bell206 said:
If there is any doubt on the control balance or interior materials its the mechanics duty to determine the status whether it looks new or old. If they dont they violate the rules. Simple. For me, I'm more suspect of older paint/interior that doesnt look as old as it should be. But technically the liability ends with the last annual signature in the book.

I'm sure Dan will correct me, but I believe the Canadian TCCA has an aircraft records retention policy very similar to the FAA policy.

FYI: The EASA has the most restrictive and complex regulatory system in the world and makes the FAA and TCCA look simple in comparison.
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Does that make it any safer?
 
I guess I hit the reply button wrong or something......

Do all of the rules, regulation and bureaucracy make flying any safer?

Bell206 said:
Does what make it safer?
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Bell206 said: ↑
FYI: The EASA has the most restrictive and complex regulatory system in the world and makes the FAA and TCCA look simple in comparison.
 
Some do. Some don't. Some probably make things worse.
 
Getonit said:
Do all of the rules, regulation and bureaucracy make flying any safer?
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Statistically for the "maintenance error" and "mechanical fault" categories its a wash between the EASA and similar systems vs the FAA system. So it doesn't make it any more "safer". Where these other systems do excel is in the level of regulatory accountability. For example, hangar fairies and $200 annuals basically don't exist under those systems. There still are similar actions but no where near the levels in the US. Now could that possibly cause a reduction in the mx accident rate. Don't know, but not that I've seen in general on the US side. But where these systems make their biggest impact is on cost of the system. If we had a similar system here the numbers of private Part 91 GA would drop by 60%+ simply due to regulatory cost increase.
 
Bell206 said:
Statistically for the "maintenance error" and "mechanical fault" categories its a wash between the EASA and similar systems vs the FAA system. So it doesn't make it any more "safer". Where these other systems do excel is in the level of regulatory accountability. For example, hangar fairies and $200 annuals basically don't exist under those systems. There still are similar actions but no where near the levels in the US. Now could that possibly cause a reduction in the mx accident rate. Don't know, but not that I've seen in general on the US side. But where these systems make their biggest impact is on cost of the system. If we had a similar system here the numbers of private Part 91 GA would drop by 60%+ simply due to regulatory cost increase.
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If one thinks about it, GA is already 99.9% safe if one follows the regulations. That last 0.1% is being pursued by regulators; they mistakenly think they can eliminate all accidents. The general public tends to drive that; every time there's another crash, they demand more laws to prevent it.

Even pilots themselves want the law to crack down on egregious violators, but you really can't fix stupidity. Suspend the guy's license and he just keeps flying anyway. No different from the suspended drivers who just keep driving. Laws, to them, are for stupid people.

A friend spent some time as a chaplain in a prison. He was amazed at how smart all those inmates were. They told him so. He liked to ask them why they were in prison if they were so smart...
 
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