Labor shortages are annoying.

[MIFlyer]

I've said this before, many times: An airplane is not a car. There are huge differences in structures, controls, engine duty cycles, ignition and fuel, and many other things. Cars don't have retractable wheels or constant-speed props or prop governors or flight instruments. The exhaust systems in cars aren't glowing red-hot at full throttle, and an exhaust leak in a car isn't usually fatal. Its engine is air-cooled, and the airflow baffling is seriously critical. Airplanes don't have an OBD-II port for the codereader. You actually have to know how to troubleshoot and think, and you'd better know your electrical theory or you'll waste a terrific amount of time and money.

The collection of regulations around aviation are far bigger than around cars and the mechanic has to know a whole lot of them.

This is why the schooling for an A&P is so different. The average car mechanic is dangerous around an airplane because he thinks he already knows most of it. I thought that, too, until I took my AME training (Canada). I found out how much I did not know. And many years later I still have to refer to the manuals frequently. And there are a lot of manuals.

Sure, we here in Canada have the Owner-Maintenance category, but it's restricted to old, obsolete, small designs, and that airplane has to be certified to meet its type design before the OM registration is issued. That means it has to be substantially the same as it was when it left the factory, except for any STCs that have been applied since then. The owner has to keep it that way except for some limited mods he can make in accordance with other certified mods on similar aircraft. In my experience, many of the OM owners end up bringing the airplane to an AME because they start realizing that they don't know nearly enough. They get something messed up so the engine doesn't run right, or they mess up the control rigging and it flies funny, or they get scared that they've done something that weakened the airframe. They don't want to die because of something they didn't know. They don't know how serious corrosion is, and what to do about it.

Here's the study guide for the AME license examinations. We have to get 70% on any exam, knowing the stuff that applies to the category of license we are applying for, and there are four categories. There's also a lot of overlap in those categories. M1 covers aircraft up to 12,566 lb gross weight plus a few old biggies like the DC-3 and some Convairs, as well as helicopter, both piston and turbine. M2 covers the stuff over 12,566 plus turbojets and pressurized aircraft, and heavy helicopters. E covers avionics, and S is sheet metal. The M1 and M2 have to know sheet metal as well, with certain restrictions. Like I said, lots of overlap.
https://tc.canada.ca/sites/default/files/migrated/tp14038e.pdf

It's a long list, and one reason why it takes four years to get the ticket here. Adding ratings takes more education and time.

I've seen airplanes repaired by non-aircraft mechanics. It's scary sometimes.

Dan, I truly appreciate your perspective and none of my statement was meant to disparage A&P expertise. I would challenge us to challenge how much difference is fundamental, vs how much is because there is a regulation. I'm trying to head off a world where there is no part 91 service available, not to save $1,000 by using a non certified A&P.

 

[MIFlyer]

I don’t know the medical side but on the A&P side it’s a bit more than just a bureaucrat in Washington making up restrictive requirements. The reason behind the current A&P system is to meet the standards of an international agreement the US signed in the 40s and its subsequent member status in ICAO. Its the US version of the same standards followed in the aircraft maintenance engineer systems of Canada, Europe, and others. And if you really want to compare apples, the US A&P system is the least restrictive aviation regulatory system in the world by far.

Now when it comes to Canada’s Owner Maintained category, it is outside of these ICAO standards and receives zero reciprocity from other ICAO member nations just as E/AB and LSA don’t. TC’d aircraft maintained by certified/licensed mechanics are accepted across all member nations, in general. And while I am a fan of Owner Maintained in the US there are “permanent” repercussions if you do take a TC’d aircraft that route. From my understanding, Canada didn’t see the numbers of aircraft converted to owner-maint category that they thought would due to those exact issues. Plus there are other issues that are arising from parts removed off a TCCA Owner Mx cat aircraft. But in reality, how many people would go Owner Maintained in the US? 10% of the Part 91 fleet? 20%? I think more like 5% based just on the numbers of owners who perform their own preventive maintenance tasks now. And most just keep that to tires, plugs, and oil/filter changes. Regardless, A&Ps will never be put out of work any time soon from my viewpoint.

As to the auto mechanic vs aviation mechanic comparisons those are also moot. Its never been about mechanical ability. Either a person has that ability or he doesn’t and unfortunately people with no mechanical ability work on both cars and aircraft alike. The difference is market: 100M+ passenger vehicles on the road vs 200k+ total aircraft in the sky and 600K+ auto mechanics vs 60k+ A&Ps. Now when auto mechanics start needing a federal certificate and to follow federal regulations as part of their daily job then maybe we can readdress this debate.

I also appreciate your perspectives I would reiterate, my goal is to find a way to have a mechanic available, not to put A&Ps out of business. Heart attacks are going to put them out of business, so how do we create more people willing to work on piston aircraft for private owners. I'm not talking about price, i"m talking about someone there to do it. Just like having old cars, it can be tough to find anyone willing to work on it at all, let alone someone good, let alone someone reasonable.

 

[MauleSkinner]

And removing trades type classes in schools.

While I agree with your statement about over-emphasizing college, I suspect a lot of the removal of trades type classes is budgetary…just like the removal of arts, languages, etc., have been over the last 40+ years.

 

[Bell206]

I would challenge us to challenge how much difference is fundamental, vs how much is because there is a regulation

I think the point that continues to be overlooked is that it is not a fundamental issue covering a skill set or a training syllabus or how many tools you have or whatever. It never was. Matter of fact the FARs do not prevent anyone from working on aircraft. The issue is 100% regulatory and it comes into play when that work performed by whoever needs an approval for return to service. That is the only time an A&P certificate is required.

so how do we create more people willing to work on piston aircraft for private owners

You use the would willing. Cant help you there as for the past 20 years the numbers of people willingly entering the aviation maintenance field have dropped off considerably. Aviation no longer holds peoples imagination any more is my guess. And the young people I've asked have found other things to pursue. So unless you can change that trend you wont increase the numbers of new people "willing" to enter the field.

But to answer your question on how to increase the availability of maintenance services you have two options: change the current regulatory approval system or go obtain your own A&P. While some people think throwing more money at the problem will fix it they forget for the past umteen decades there was no problem filling A&P slots even at the poverty wages of past times. Why? Because people wanted to work on aircraft. That is the part people think can be bought. And it cant. If you want to think it can so be it.

LSA was supposed to be the savior of private general aviation with their own maintenance rules and the like. And look where that ended up. And same with the TCCA Owner Maint category. Both went no where. But the problems you bring up are not new. This has been an ongoing discussion in aviation maintenance circles for 20+ years. Its only now being actually felt by the average owner.

I hope you can get it figured out but you're running out of time. I was told recently that average age of US A&Ps was in their mid-40s and the average age of those APIAs running small independent shops are in their 50s. And the majority of the young people coming out of A&P school are going commercial at a good wage and not looking to move to KBFE to work weekend warrior machines. I hate to be all doom and gloom but the skies have been graying on this topic for quite some time. Only now are some people looking up. Regardless I still help where I can and increase the A&P population where possible.

 

[schmookeeg]

While some people think throwing more money at the problem will fix it they forget for the past umteen decades there was no problem filling A&P slots even at the poverty wages of past times. Why? Because people wanted to work on aircraft. That is the part people think can be bought. And it cant. If you want to think it can so be it.

I'm one of those. I think, at some rate, people will sign up to fix airplanes without giving one whit about airplanes.

I also think it's a high number, and to your point, it needs to be sustained over a long time period -- probably a generation or so, due to the poverty wages that have been the norm.

Somewhere around @Timbeck2 's 200 grand or so would probably get some people off of the bench -- those who want to afford a brodozer without working on plumbing and find HVAC work boring maybe?

 

[Dan Thomas]

I'm one of those. I think, at some rate, people will sign up to fix airplanes without giving one whit about airplanes.

I think that isn't healthy. If one does a job solely for the fat paycheck, he doesn't become all he can be. He's not interested in advancing his skills.

I have seen this way too often over my entire working life. I have encountered medical doctors who were obviously in it for the money. They really didn't like people. They weren't concerned with getting an accurate diagnosis; they just wrote more prescriptions to see if one of them worked. That is exactly the same as the mechanic that just starts replacing stuff until the problem goes away. Airplane won't start? Replace the starter. Doesn't work. Replace the battery. That doesn't work, either. Replace the starter contactor. Then the master contactor. In the end, it turns out to be something really simple, like a dirty or loose engine ground strap clamp. A fifteen-minute fix after fifteen minutes of intelligent diagnosis.

The regulations surrounding maintenance are almost all written in someone's blood. Airplanes kill people, and badly-maintained or badly-repaired airplanes kill more people faster. Most accidents are caused by pilot error, but there are still enough maintenance-related accidents (9%, IIRC?) that slackening the rules to allow even more mediocre people into the field is a little nuts. IMHO.

 

[schmookeeg]

I will take the unmotivated A&P over the absent/retired/dead/AWOL A&P if I am in need of services.

I agree that slackening the rules is nuts. Plenty of morons getting the cert out there.

 

[Bell206]

Somewhere around @Timbeck2 's 200 grand

200k? Will never happen on several levels. But what seriously needs to be defined is what section of the industry you're aiming at: private Part 91 or commercial. If you bring up the 91 side up to the commercial wage schedule you'll have a start. The problem is the independent 91 side cant support even that money. And just for comparison the average wages on the commercial side are around $28/hr for green APs, $32-35/hr 3-5 yrs exp with topouts after 25 yrs at around $50/hr. Thats over $100k/yr with bennies and retirement. This is a bit dated but close enough.

So one option is to chase the money and change the private 91 maint market model from local independent shops to larger shops which can support that wage schedule plus compete with the commercial market. But now you lose the local connection on your airport. However, this model has been changing by attrition over the past years with no replacement because no one wants the hassle.

Seems this is similar to the issues you faced with your shop? So just to ask why didnt you up the wages to get the people? I've heard and seen the answers from the shops in my area. Now throw in the rent-a-APIA who travels through and sells his wares for a song. Now what? Unfortunately, this has become an increasing issue in some areas more so than before.

Maybe another option would be for a group of owners to convince an independent APIA to offer a boutique type service like some doctors do. Each owner pays a monthly stipend that goes to keep the shop solvent and competitive allowing them to hire help at higher wages. It would be more like owner assisted on steroids. Its a thought anyways but has been done before.

Or everyone can just sit back and hope it all goes away. I told my previous customers just before I retired 8 years ago that they would need to bring up their A game and get more proactive with the maintenance on their aircraft. The smaller shops were starting to close and the only alteratives being offered were larger regional shops who dont provide road service. Unfortunately every area is unique and there is no one solution. Regardless its going to take a collective effort by all 91 owners to make any option work.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Apples and oranges. In the time since I (and I presume you) graduated HS, rents and mortgages have increased disproportionately greater than what would be considered a modest (non-minimum) starting wage.

And that has been driven by historically low interest rates. House prices tend to follow what a buyer can afford in monthly payments, and low interest rates make more people able to buy a house, and more demand for limited supply forces prices up. Way up.

Also figuring into that are the increased demands by city rulers that specify minimum sizes of houses, and the hurdles they set up for developers in getting access to more land. There are building lots in my hometown selling for $250K. For a lot, and a mediocre lot at that. A desert hillside covered in bunchgrass and sage and rattlesnakes, a place where we kids used to go to shoot targets or romp around in our jalopies. When I was 20 I could have bought acres of that hillside for a few bucks. Why didn't I? Didn't think anyone would want it. Now it's covered in real nice homes.

 

[Dan Thomas]

A good auto mechanic can be reasonably quickly trained to be an aircraft mechanic and vice versa.

No. From what experience do you make that claim?

 

[TCABM]

…Maybe another option would be for a group of owners to convince an independent APIA to offer a boutique type service like some doctors do. Each owner pays a monthly stipend that goes to keep the shop solvent and competitive allowing them to hire help at higher wages.

I’ve thought about that a bit. It’s similar to the problem many businesses with variable incomes face…how to stabilize income….subscription based services with ad hoc work to fill gaps and/or generate additional revenue. Essentially manage the aircraft + 2x oil changes and a flat rate annual inspection amortized over 12 months. Some clients pay a premium, others pay just a bit more, but no free/discounted riders.

It can work, but a certain volume of steady work is needed. That model is independent of driving wages though. There has to be market value to increase wages.

Example: subscribers get priority or discounted prices on ad hoc work over non-subscribers.

 

[Bell206]

It can work, but a certain volume of steady work is needed. That model is independent of driving wages though.

It does work. How it is set up between the user and provider determines the volume of work or money to make it solvent. That is the benefit of a "boutique" set up. Its service driven and tends to find its own happy medium and is independent of the "market" at large as it creates its own personal market. In my opinion, in the next 20-30 years, private Part 91 aviation will consist of mostly 100% private airports with "boutique" or co-op type support structures and larger public regional airports with super shops handling the area 91 maintenance requirements. Gone will be everything in between. And I think the larger airports will be the most prevalent at its present course.

 

[Magman]

I’d like to suggest a “ High School of Transportation “ designed and built to provide facilities for Auto and Aviation classes. Ramps in the school,would allow driving up to the top floor. With traffic signals of course. Spray booths, welding shops and engine test cells would be integral.

Students would spend half the day in shop classes. Math and Science appropriate to the trade would be taught by former mechanics. So Weight and Balance would be incorporated in algebra classes. Laws of fluids and gases , gears and levers would be part of Science classes.

Part time classes would provide skills to people to enable them to upgrade their employment with local manufacturers.

In order to recruit Techs to attend Certification Classes and become Teachers there would have to have a salary boost to provide motivation.

Oh wait. It’s been done before . Nearly 100 years ago!

 

[Timbeck2]

Somewhere around @Timbeck2 's 200 grand or so

Flag on the play. Out of context. 5 post penalty, still second down.

 

[aterry1067]

There are some great responses and ideas in this thread, and I have enjoyed reading them all. I appreciate everyone's perspectives and experience. I'd like to add a few more points of discussion.

Too long/Didn't read version: Light sport and E/AB have much more relaxed maintenance regulations; insurance is too costly for the one-man A&P show; many A&Ps are doing A&P work for fun because they have already retired from their career job.

The maintenance regulations on personal aircraft maintenance HAVE been relaxed, specifically in 3 different ways. First, as we are all aware, a private pilot and aircraft owner is allowed to perform several maintenance tasks per 14 CFR part 43 appx A. Second, any interested person can take a two-week Light Sport-Repairman course and become certified to perform maintenance AND yearly inspections on ANY light sport. A 2 day class gives the light sport pilot/owner the certification to perform maintenance and yearly inspections on THEIR OWN aircraft. There are also Rotax courses, and a two-week course there qualifies the mechanic to perform complete engine overhauls on Rotax engines. And the least restrictive of all, Experimental/Amateur Built aircraft. Almost anyone can do the work on an E/AB, as long as an A&P or the original builder performs the yearly condition inspection. If aircraft maintenance is really as easy as some seem to be saying, then assembling their own airplane kit should be a piece of cake, right? And the owner would end up with a newer airplane, with the opportunity for more advanced avionics and powerplant, and have it all for a lot less money! Sounds like a no brainer, right? Or maybe, it's a little more complicated than it seems....

One of the biggest limitations that I hear about for independent A&Ps is insurance costs. I know quite a few mechanics that have their A&P cert, but don't actually work on anyone's airplane other than their own simply because they have no liability protection (full disclosure, most of these mechanics are military aircraft mechanics that picked up their A&P, but don't/won't work on airplanes outside of the military). I have not personally inquired on any A&P liability insurance, so my comments on this are purely hearsay, but I have heard of some outrageous quotes. @Bell206 talked about this a few years ago with this most insightful and informative post, and I will defer to his experience and expertise...
Insurance for a new AP | Page 2 | Pilots of America

Many of the A&Ps that I know that do work on GA aircraft are usually retired from their career jobs and are working on small airplanes more as a favor to other flying friends than as a business. I know a few that do A&P work as a small side hustle, but I have no idea of their insurance status. I think that as some of these older A&Ps pass-on (remember, they have already retired and working on airplanes is a fun past-time for them), that they will be backfilled by other professionals that will also retire and do A&P work as a hobby. I.E. many independent A&Ps are at retirement age, because being an A&P is what they are doing for fun after retirement. The insurance comments still apply to these A&Ps, but I suspect they are and can be much more selective in the aircraft they help maintain.

 

[TCABM]

…private Part 91 aviation will consist of mostly 100% private airports with "boutique" or co-op type support structures…

My old base and where I will likely re-base at is that way. Private airport open to the public. Exclusive agreement for on-field aircraft maintenance services to the on field shop. Exclusive agreement for the flight school. Flight school has a carve out to maintain their owned/operated aircraft. Flight school is a Cirrus sales center and has CSIPs, as well. Need a hangar? If there’s not one available, they’ll build another row.

It’s the only growing airport around here.

 

[Pinecone]

While I agree with your statement about over-emphasizing college, I suspect a lot of the removal of trades type classes is budgetary…just like the removal of arts, languages, etc., have been over the last 40+ years.

But they have the money to put in all sorts of other courses. But don't get me started.

 

[MIFlyer]

Coming back to "inspiration". I have had success as a shadetree mechanic in recruiting and inspriing smart, but disaffected teenagers and getting them into wanting to wrench and understand machines. It would be very interesting to think about a way to find these people in the general population. I think it would be good to help create a spark for craftmanship and show the agency and satisfaction to more young people who maybe don't see a clear path forward. They wouldn't all turn into A&Ps, but some would.

 

[Bell206]

It would be very interesting to think about a way to find these people in the general population.

You'll have to look digitally on one of the online platforms for them. Fences, gates, and 9/11 have effectively blocked the younger interested ones from hanging around the airports as generations past. But first maybe seek out a local/regional A&P school and ask an instructor or if possible one of their students where to find more potential candidates for your endeavor. That route will give you the best, local intel where to look and how to look as not everyone can afford school but may have inquired. I wish you luck and if you need any technical assistance let me know.

 

[schmookeeg]

I was thinking about this on a drive to the hangar today. I think the A&P situation sucks, but aren't EMT techs worse? Like don't the dudes driving our ambulances around hover at or barely over minimum wage?

I'd rather have my annual take 6 months than my ambulance ride never arrive.

 

[MIFlyer]

You'll have to look digitally on one of the online platforms for them. Fences, gates, and 9/11 have effectively blocked the younger interested ones from hanging around the airports as generations past. But first maybe seek out a local/regional A&P school and ask an instructor or if possible one of their students where to find more potential candidates for your endeavor. That route will give you the best, local intel where to look and how to look as not everyone can afford school but may have inquired. I wish you luck and if you need any technical assistance let me know.

Thanks. How I found kids to be a mechanics "apprentice" was to post on nextdoor in my posh community "Are there any teenagers interested in learning how to work on cars and help with a restoration project?" I had 20 kids lined up in 30 minutes.... median income of their parents is mid six figures.

 

[MIFlyer]

I was thinking about this on a drive to the hangar today. I think the A&P situation sucks, but aren't EMT techs worse? Like don't the dudes driving our ambulances around hover at or barely over minimum wage?

I'd rather have my annual take 6 months than my ambulance ride never arrive.

I know the EMTs are paid poorly, but I think there are enough of them.

Also, it doesn't seem like the "intellectual horsepower" between A&P and driver are the same. There is overlap, but I think to be a decent A&P puts you at the top of the EMT distribution.

 

[schmookeeg]

I know the EMTs are paid poorly, but I think there are enough of them.

Also, it doesn't seem like the "intellectual horsepower" between A&P and driver are the same. There is overlap, but I think to be a decent A&P puts you at the top of the EMT distribution.

Yeah, but I want to understand why there are enough of them. Is it a rad job performing CPR on the walmart nation when they OD on twinkies? I can't imagine that to be the case, but... maybe I lack imagination?

Do the members of their preferred sexual persuasion throw undergarments at them for being heros? Does that compensate the top ramen wage structure? Can we arrange such sport for the A&Ps out there?

 

[MIFlyer]

Yeah, but I want to understand why there are enough of them. Is it a rad job performing CPR on the walmart nation when they OD on twinkies? I can't imagine that to be the case, but... maybe I lack imagination?

Do the members of their preferred sexual persuasion throw undergarments at them for being heros? Does that compensate the top ramen wage structure? Can we arrange such sport for the A&Ps out there?

I know several. I think it is as simple as knowing people that do it, and having people telling them healthcare is a good field to go into.

Also a lot of people who want to make it into the fire service and juicy union benefits, do EMT to build up "points" towards the selection criteria

 

[TCABM]

I was thinking about this on a drive to the hangar today. I think the A&P situation sucks, but aren't EMT techs worse? Like don't the dudes driving our ambulances around hover at or barely over minimum wage?

I'd rather have my annual take 6 months than my ambulance ride never arrive.

Dude, people volunteer to become EMTs, will pay for their own training, pay for lights and sirens on their own vehicle and work a day job to support responding to calls.

 

[mondtster]

Yeah, but I want to understand why there are enough of them. Is it a rad job performing CPR on the walmart nation when they OD on twinkies? I can't imagine that to be the case, but... maybe I lack imagination?

Do the members of their preferred sexual persuasion throw undergarments at them for being heros? Does that compensate the top ramen wage structure? Can we arrange such sport for the A&Ps out there?

I'd bet that the reason there are plenty of EMTs is because many aspire to be on a fire department (or already are on one). Many fire departments are responsible for medical calls and run the ambulance service, and you won't get on the department without being an EMT. Generally speaking, those guys aren't underpaid either.

But some get their start driving for a hospital or a separate contracted ambulance service while they're waiting for the next opportunity to come up. It's not unlike flight instructors waiting/working for their next big job.

 

[TCABM]

Around here, the entry level job at a Fire Dept is firefighter and EMTs are dime a dozen. To get onto an ambulance, it takes seniority and a Paramedic qualification/license. Most also require advanced cardiac life support as well, whether you’re the driver or the GIB with the patient.

 

[schmookeeg]

Gotcha. We need some cushy union jobs for A&Ps to aspire to.

Hmmm... is that not the airlines though?

Rats, thought I was onto something here, but sounds like not. A&P work for GA is a cul-de-sac.

 

[Bell206]

Yeah, but I want to understand why there are enough of them. Is it a rad job performing CPR on the walmart nation when they OD on twinkies? I can't imagine that to be the case, but... maybe I lack imagination?

I guess you never watched Mother, Juggs, and Speed? Almost made me switch from airplanes to ambulances...

 

[mondtster]

Around here, the entry level job at a Fire Dept is firefighter and EMTs are dime a dozen. To get onto an ambulance, it takes seniority and a Paramedic qualification/license. Most also require advanced cardiac life support as well, whether you’re the driver or the GIB with the patient.

The reverse is the way it works here, and the way it works in most of the smaller city departments I've been around. You've got to have seniority to get off the ambulance/medical calls and ride a truck.

 

[schmookeeg]

I guess you never watched Mother, Juggs, and Speed? Almost made me switch from airplanes to ambulances...

Never even heard of it. Came out on the year of my birth. Looks like something I would find deep, deep down the Amazon Prime video lists amidst an assortment of space-tarantula flicks from the 50s. Will seek it out this evening and contemplate a new rating.

 

[TCABM]

The reverse is the way it works here, and the way it works in most of the smaller city departments I've been around. You've got to have seniority to get off the ambulance/medical calls and ride a truck.

Different model for sure. Here just about every LEO and firefighter is NR-EMT, just part of the job.

 

[MIFlyer]

Agreed. Maybe a third level. A Basic A&P, like Basic Med. Can do certain things, but other work needs a higher certificate.

But, as I understand it, a number of shops run this way. Hire person with A&P, works under the direction of, doing more and more with less and less oversight, then gets the certificate.

Although most auto mechanics are now certified by something like ASI or the manufacturers training.

That's a really interesting concept. Think about the repairman's certificate that experimental owners can get. What about something like that for certificated for your own plane? Make it a 2-10 day course instead of 2,000 hours of shop time and you'd get a lot more trained people doing more and it would take a load off the shops. It would also let more people start building 2,000 hours by doing 30 hours a year on their own plane. They might find they like it and that they want to go take the courses and gain the experience for A&P. I guess the challenge is there's no "part time pathway" to a limited license.

I also go back to inspiration. if more shiftless kids knew they could go apprentice for a couple of years (making the same they make at a dead end job) and build a career out of it, they'd do it. I would bet 99.9999% of teens don't even know that A&P is a job, let alone that they could make a good family wage (or more!) at it.

 

[JOhnH]

I think that isn't healthy. If one does a job solely for the fat paycheck, he doesn't become all he can be. He's not interested in advancing his skills.

On the other hand, there may be a lot of people that would love to work on airplanes, if only they could make a decent living at it.

 

[Bell206]

I guess the challenge is there's no "part time pathway" to a limited license.

The challenge is purely regulatory. Repairman certificates are used at the FAA CRS level of approval and are quite common. I had a repairman before I got my A&P. The main issue of a "part time pathway" is it doesnt meet the ICAO maintenance "licensing" standard (as mentioned above) similar to the TCCA owner mx. So if one were to break from the ICAO standard for TC'd aircraft it would be much simpler to follow the Canadian model and no other "pathway" or part time cert would be needed. The question is do you want to create two categories of TC'd aircraft in the US just like Canada.

I would bet 99.9999% of teens don't even know that A&P is a job

I believe this is very subjective to location. Aviation mechanic has been a fixture of high school career days in my 4 state region for many years. There are also 3 public technical schools within a 200 mile span in my state alone that offer aviation maintenance technology at a decent cost. However, there are areas in the country that think A&P is only a grocery store. So I wouldnt rate that at 99% in general.

I would think in your area there was a similar system in place given Boeing. I also know/knew the Seattle CC system offered an A&P program back in the early 80s. But ironically the top 10% of those graduates were offered jobs by a Puget Sound area dental equipment mfgr rather than an aviation company. It always baffled me that non-aviation companies gave more credit, and money, to A&Ps than aviation companies did. That alone could help you attract more interest from young people???

if only they could make a decent living at it

As asked above, what amount of money is your definition of a decent living? $50k? $70k $100k? ??

 

[Magman]

The auto folks addressed this with partnership agreements with Community Colleges. Students actually work at dealerships part of the time. AND they get paid AND get tools. They know they have jobs waiting when they graduate.

 

[JOhnH]

As asked above, what amount of money is your definition of a decent living? $50k? $70k $100k? ??

MY definition is irrelevant. That number will be different for everyone, just as much as the desire to work on airplanes will be different for each person. The important number is that enough people will have the opportunity to make enough for THEM to decide to go the A&P route.

 

[Pinecone]

Coming back to "inspiration". I have had success as a shadetree mechanic in recruiting and inspriing smart, but disaffected teenagers and getting them into wanting to wrench and understand machines. It would be very interesting to think about a way to find these people in the general population. I think it would be good to help create a spark for craftmanship and show the agency and satisfaction to more young people who maybe don't see a clear path forward. They wouldn't all turn into A&Ps, but some would.

That was something that shop classes in high school did.

Introduce people to mechanical things, and that some of them would like it and follow it as a career path.

Now, those same people go to college and fluke out and have no skills.

 

[Bell206]

MY definition is irrelevant.

Your original post implied you had a comparative number in mind as other posts. I'm just curious what those numbers might be and how they compared to what is actually offered. Nothing more.

That was something that shop classes in high school did.

This is interesting. Are you saying in your area school systems there is no longer vocational or occupational classes offered anymore? In the areas around here the individual vocational classes were reorganized and are now offered out of standalone school buildings or a public magnet school system at the high school level. So while each high school no longer has a shop class, any student wishing that training now splits their time between the "shop" school and their regular high school. Perhaps they did the same in your state? If they didn't I'd say that was not a wise decision on their part.

 

[TCABM]

What we called Votech is now Career and Technical Education. Aviation maintenance usually falls under transportation or STEM curricula today. You can find more info on your state’s CTE programs here: https://www.acteonline.org/state-fact-sheets/